161 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Okay so with Legion's loyalty mission, at the end you get the choice to either blow up the station (renegade) or change the programming of the 'heretics' (paragon). To me, this makes no sense - how is brainwashing the good choice?

Now I look at it from a real-world perspective. As a Westerner, lets say I'm on a base and some terrorists, whomever they may be, break in and cause all havoc. Now they're going to win, so the only decision for me is whether I die or get brainwashed by them and join their cause. Personally, I'd rather die.

This brings me back to the loyalty mission and my confusion as to why brainwashing, which is essentially what you're doing, is the good choice?

Just trying to understand why Bioware chose to do it this way.

[Collider]

It's not exactly brain washing. The Geth you reprogram can decide to follow the Reapers again. It's more like steering them towards peace or allowing them to consider peace. That is, if I remember correctly. Plus, the Geth are not individuals.

[Massadonious1]

That analogy would only work if you weren't aware you were being "brainwashed" into screaming "Death to America!"



The morality lies in making a choice they can't make themselves.

[Nivenus]

It's worth noting that Legion doesn't approve really, though. He's okay with it. But he thinks destroying the base is preferable. And the geth are individuals - just not in the way that humans or asari are. Each geth platform is a unique amalgamation of several programs. Legion is not and never will be exactly the same as another geth, unless that geth was composed of precisely the same programs and had precisely the same experiences.



And it is brainwashing of a sorts. If someone rewrote you so that you no longer believed in whatever spiritual belief you hold, it would certainly be a form of brainwashing - and the heretics' belief seems to be much more innately based than most humans' religious beliefs.

[Virtual winter]

I prefer to think of it the other way round. The Heretics _are_ brainwashed - like in a cult - and what Shep does is 'deprogram' them.



At least this is the only way I can view it as a Paragon action.

[Collider]

Nivenus wrote...

It's worth noting that Legion doesn't approve really, though. He's okay with it. But he thinks destroying the base is preferable. And the geth are individuals - just not in the way that humans or asari are. Each geth platform is a unique amalgamation of several programs. Legion is not and never will be exactly the same as another geth, unless that geth was composed of precisely the same programs and had precisely the same experiences.

And it is brainwashing of a sorts. If someone rewrote you so that you no longer believed in whatever spiritual belief you hold, it would certainly be a form of brainwashing - and the heretics' belief seems to be much more innately based than most humans' religious beliefs.

I take that you destroyed them?

[Lareit]

Collider wrote...

It's not exactly brain washing. The Geth you reprogram can decide to follow the Reapers again. It's more like steering them towards peace or allowing them to consider peace. That is, if I remember correctly. Plus, the Geth are not individuals.

It's brain washing. You're destroying what they are internally. It's just really bad brainwashing as it isn't necessarily going to end up in your favor.

Bioware screwed the morality pooch, but thats not too suprising.

Don't forget they decided being evil makes you go Sith like this game......

[Collider]

Those are all good points. I'll have to reconsider. Playing the loyalty mission would probably help, I've only played it once and that was over a month ago.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

It's worth noting that Legion doesn't approve really, though. He's okay with it. But he thinks destroying the base is preferable. And the geth are individuals - just not in the way that humans or asari are. Each geth platform is a unique amalgamation of several programs. Legion is not and never will be exactly the same as another geth, unless that geth was composed of precisely the same programs and had precisely the same experiences.

And it is brainwashing of a sorts. If someone rewrote you so that you no longer believed in whatever spiritual belief you hold, it would certainly be a form of brainwashing - and the heretics' belief seems to be much more innately based than most humans' religious beliefs.

I take that you destroyed them?

Yes. It may have been renegade, but I felt it was the best option under the circumstances.

[Collider]

That's what I did as well. Hopefully it's not going to bite me in the ass too much in ME3.

[Collider]

Anyways, I take that they may have had rewriting paragon and destroying renegade for this one fact...destroying is violent, rewriting is still allowing those geth to "live" and is the more peaceful. I don't necessarily agree with rewriting being paragon and destroying being renegade though. Just how I see Bioware as reasoning they are.

[Lucky Thirteen]

Well the whole thing with Legion makes me uneasy. If you talk to him later on, he mentions the Geth idea of unifying all the Geth into one big machine.



It's kinda Reaper sounding and somewhat communist. The whole thing made my hair stand on end thinking about that in an attempt to do the right thing, I just helped the Geth become one unstoppable destructive machine.



As much as I love Legion, he's just so adorable, he could very well be fooling Shepard. Who knows. X.x

[taigin]

I don't think paragon/renegade automaticly transfers the good or evil choices, it's more about moral stances, where it's a lot of grey. As a renegade it's about getting the end result in the most effective way and not taking any chances and where violance gets you a long way (end justifies the means). So if people have the potential of being a threat, kill them (Rachni, Heretic geth, different mercenaries or npc's you come across). As a paragon you don't believe in unnecessary violence or death, you believe in giving people a second chance turning them to the "right" path. Because of this you'd rather reprogramme the geth, let rachni go and let the evil guy go then sacrfice innocent life.



Bioware have made many of the choices grey on purpose. In many cases you don't know how your choices will turn out. You spare Elnora in Samaras recruitment mission and it turns out it was a really bad choice.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

Anyways, I take that they may have had rewriting paragon and destroying renegade for this one fact...destroying is violent, rewriting is still allowing those geth to "live" and is the more peaceful. I don't necessarily agree with rewriting being paragon and destroying being renegade though. Just how I see Bioware as reasoning they are.

I actually like this explanation, as I think it's entirely where BioWare was going with paragon/renegade morality. A paragon extremist will probably end up the D&D equivalent of lawful good while a renegade extremist will probably fall somewhere between chaotic neutral or neutral evil, but it's clear to me that they're not supposed to be black and white choices.

In a way, it's an improved version of the Open Palm and Closed Fist morality from Jade Empire, except that while the Open Palm way was almost always unequivocably good and the Closed Fist was just high-minded thuggery, most renegade options actually seem to have just enough justification that they don't seem like the "evil" option.

[Collider]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Well the whole thing with Legion makes me uneasy. If you talk to him later on, he mentions the Geth idea of unifying all the Geth into one big machine.

It's kinda Reaper sounding and somewhat communist. The whole thing made my hair stand on end thinking about that in an attempt to do the right thing, I just helped the Geth become one unstoppable destructive machine.

As much as I love Legion, he's just so adorable, he could very well be fooling Shepard. Who knows. X.x

Would be really silly on Bioware's fault. First in ME1 the Geth are all violent and violent towards organics. Then in ME2 "lol not all of them some are peaceful rofl." Then in ME3 "lol jsut kidding legion was lying pwned" I don't think they're going to go that route. At least I hope they don't. Don't play with my emotions Bioware

Modifié par Collider, 27 avril 2010 - 08:25 .

[Nivenus]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Well the whole thing with Legion makes me uneasy. If you talk to him later on, he mentions the Geth idea of unifying all the Geth into one big machine.

It's kinda Reaper sounding and somewhat communist. The whole thing made my hair stand on end thinking about that in an attempt to do the right thing, I just helped the Geth become one unstoppable destructive machine. 

Okay. That made me laugh . Seriously, communists are as scary as the Reapers now?

[Collider]

Nivenus wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Well the whole thing with Legion makes me uneasy. If you talk to him later on, he mentions the Geth idea of unifying all the Geth into one big machine.

It's kinda Reaper sounding and somewhat communist. The whole thing made my hair stand on end thinking about that in an attempt to do the right thing, I just helped the Geth become one unstoppable destructive machine. 

Okay. That made me laugh . Seriously, communists are as scary as the Reapers now?

No, but throughout history communism has never worked...and has been an enemy of human rights.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Well the whole thing with Legion makes me uneasy. If you talk to him later on, he mentions the Geth idea of unifying all the Geth into one big machine.

It's kinda Reaper sounding and somewhat communist. The whole thing made my hair stand on end thinking about that in an attempt to do the right thing, I just helped the Geth become one unstoppable destructive machine. 

Okay. That made me laugh . Seriously, communists are as scary as the Reapers now?

No, but throughout history communism has never worked...and has been an enemy of human rights.

Oh, of course, communism as preached by Marx, Lenin, etc. is a theocratic pseudoscience that lends itself ridiculously well to moral extremism. But really, you have to understand the context. For people like the quarians or geth, communism frankly makes a lot more sense than a free market system.

[Collider]

They don't have much choice otherwise, yes. The Quarians seem to be getting by and the Geth don't seem to mind.

[Solomen]

Collider wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Well the whole thing with Legion makes me uneasy. If you talk to him later on, he mentions the Geth idea of unifying all the Geth into one big machine.

It's kinda Reaper sounding and somewhat communist. The whole thing made my hair stand on end thinking about that in an attempt to do the right thing, I just helped the Geth become one unstoppable destructive machine. 

Okay. That made me laugh . Seriously, communists are as scary as the Reapers now?

No, but throughout history communism has never worked...and has been an enemy of human rights.

Geth can't be communists... there is only really two of them.  Geth is a hive organism. 

[Vanaer]

The Geth are no sentient species as humans. First of all, their collection of VI programs allows them to become an Artificial Intelligence, but only by joining those VI programs together. This means there is only one Geth - All Geth. Heretic Geth are like a sleeping leg, it's there but you can almost make no connection to it.



Reprogamming the Geth seems to me like regaining control over a sleeping leg; they glitched into becoming Heretic, now we unglitch them. By letting them rejoin the Geth they become even more intelligent and simply 'more'.

[FlintlockJazz]

At first I leaned towards brainwashing the geth. It didn't seem like that good of an option, but I figured it was better than killing them all, plus with the reapers coming I figured we'd need as many as we can get our hands on, plus it shows the geth that there are alternatives to killing, that getting along is preferable.



However, I am now starting to think that maybe its not the 'lesser of two evils' as I thought. Many consider death to slavery, and while it may lead to their death they did make a choice. They chose to follow the reapers and so we should respect that just as they should accept the consequences of their choice which can include their death.



More importantly, by brainwashing the heretics you are making the geth faction stronger, which even if they are 'good' is not necessarily the best thing. By making them stronger, you make them more self-reliant, which further removes their need to interact with other races. Why trade with others when you have the manpower to develop your own resources? The geth would just continue hiding away. That's one theory anyway.



Overall, I think the Paragon and Renegade choices are essentially coming down to the meta-game concept of "Paragon makes all races more powerful vs Renegade empowers humanity at the expense of others in order to prepare for the Imperium of Man". I know thats not what they are supposed to mean, but thats how they seem to be implemented in many cases. I noticed when going through first as a paragon and then as a renegade that the conversations you have on the way seems to indicate the Paragon thinks brainwashing them is a horrible thing to do whereas the renegade actually states that its rascist to think of the geth in the same way as organics and therefore reprogramming them might not be so bad even from their perspective, which Legion agrees with. Then it switches them at the actual choice, which seemed odd...

[Habelo]

Well think of it like this, the reaper came and changed human nature so that we dont like boobies. If then someone would reprogram us not like boobies again (make us go to our original state) then it is a paragon choice isnt it?

holy **** the grammar on that one was bad

Modifié par Habelo, 27 avril 2010 - 09:43 .

[Collider]

Thanks for those words of wisdom, Habelo.