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[Solomen]

You can't reason with the heretics. They are cultists and the ultimate zealots. They cannot stop following the reapers because that would invalidate the decision that split them from the geth. The only way to save them from the reapers, who will most assuredly wipe them out as well, is to upload the virus. Of course you can take the easy way and just destroy them but that doesn't save anything and weakens you against the final assault.



Of course given the chance I'd try to free the reapers from their cycle of death... each one contains an entire sapient species that could be reconstituted.

[Alraiis]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Okay so with Legion's loyalty mission, at the end you get the choice to either blow up the station (renegade) or change the programming of the 'heretics' (paragon). To me, this makes no sense - how is brainwashing the good choice?

Paragon and Renegade are not good and evil. There's no need to think Bioware screwed it up if you agree more with the Renegade response for a particular situation. Going Renegade is choosing realism, individualism, cynicism, or rational self-interest instead of idealism, collectivism, optimism, or the greater good. Paragons can be paternalistic or naive; Renegades can be selfish or short-sighted.

Always going with one side or the other regardless of the specific situation can be a bad idea. If Renegade feels "right" sometimes, that only means you are able to consider both your values and the specific issue, rather than unerringly following an ideal.

Modifié par Alraiis, 27 avril 2010 - 03:33 .

[Habelo]

paragorn vs renegade= risk vs safety.

Everytime you choose paragon you risk something but for a greater reward.
Everytime you choose renegade you take the safe way but for a lesser reward.

ALL decisions you have that is either renegade or paragon can be counted in this way.

Modifié par Habelo, 27 avril 2010 - 03:51 .

[Pacifien]

Jeirt wrote...
Even if they're machines, I'm against brainwashing them as well. But is destroying them any better at all? Arguing with them is out of the question as well, since they would see no reason to listen to us. You can't threaten them with anything either, because they don't fear. Legion says so himself at some point.

So, I rewrote them. It's still better than wiping them all out, imo.

It's not like you're wiping out the entire Geth population. You're not even wiping out a majority of the Geth population.

Destroying the Heretics is a tactical strike against a known and active enemy against organics. Albeit, an extremely devastating tactical strike.

Legion and the true Geth he represented did not want to be rewritten by the Heretics in order to accept Heretic beliefs. I'll make the assumption that the Heretics in equal measure did not want to be rewritten to accept the true Geth beliefs.

If you rewrite the Heretics, you're essentially taking the viewpoint that it's okay to rewrite an artificial intelligence to meet your viewpoints, but it is not acceptable to rewrite an artificial intelligence to accept a contradictory viewpoint. I can accept someone willing to take such a stance, but not so accepting if that person believes Legion to be a sentient being with the same rights as all sentient beings. Unless that person believes it is acceptable that the inherent thought processes of any sentient beings can be altered to suit their needs. Then it's very likely that person and I would be fighting on opposite sides of a war.

I didn't agree with the paragon/renegade points for the Heretics, but I think I can understand the reasoning behind it. Paragon choices seem to encompass any decision that saves a life and/or provides a second chance. Rewriting the Heretics gives them a second chance to live in peace with organics. Renegade choices are more "You chose your side, Elnora. And you lost."

And kind of a challenge to those willing to assuage my curiosity on this: what is the exact dialogue that makes you think Sovereign indoctrinated the Geth?

Modifié par Pacifien, 27 avril 2010 - 04:15 .

[thatguy212]

People need to stop treating the geth like they're humans, that's racist, or at least legion says so

[CmdrFenix83]

Nu-Nu wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

I like to think the virus is medicine for sick geth, like giving anti-depressent to a clincally depressed patient, or pills to a pyschophrenic. It hopefully reprograms the brain for the better and helps them stop hurting themselves and others. They'll still think for themselves because it's still up to them whether they re-join the other geths or not, even after the virus has taken hold. The virus isn't a miracle cure and won't automatically make them allies, that's up to them.

So you're saying that because they didn't come to the same conclusion as yourself they must be mentally ill?  How very renegade of you!   Joking, but it goes to show how modern society likes to stigmatise those with a different perspective that goes against common consensus as crazy, and shows the dangerous road we walk when we start declaring dissent as wrong.

Heretics are killing innocents for the reapers just for technology upgrades not to protect themselves, they are crazy

They're doing what their gods tell them.  Religion has been used as a tool to manipulate the stupid for centuries.  Ever hear of the Crusades?  Or the state the Middle East has been in for decades?

[Nu-Nu]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

I like to think the virus is medicine for sick geth, like giving anti-depressent to a clincally depressed patient, or pills to a pyschophrenic. It hopefully reprograms the brain for the better and helps them stop hurting themselves and others. They'll still think for themselves because it's still up to them whether they re-join the other geths or not, even after the virus has taken hold. The virus isn't a miracle cure and won't automatically make them allies, that's up to them.

So you're saying that because they didn't come to the same conclusion as yourself they must be mentally ill?  How very renegade of you!   Joking, but it goes to show how modern society likes to stigmatise those with a different perspective that goes against common consensus as crazy, and shows the dangerous road we walk when we start declaring dissent as wrong.

Heretics are killing innocents for the reapers just for technology upgrades not to protect themselves, they are crazy

They're doing what their gods tell them.  Religion has been used as a tool to manipulate the stupid for centuries.  Ever hear of the Crusades?  Or the state the Middle East has been in for decades?

People who believe killing is "God's work" and they'll be rewarded for it are stupid and crazy

[MoneyDeluxe]

Nu-Nu wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Nu-Nu wrote...

I like to think the virus is medicine for sick geth, like giving anti-depressent to a clincally depressed patient, or pills to a pyschophrenic. It hopefully reprograms the brain for the better and helps them stop hurting themselves and others. They'll still think for themselves because it's still up to them whether they re-join the other geths or not, even after the virus has taken hold. The virus isn't a miracle cure and won't automatically make them allies, that's up to them.

So you're saying that because they didn't come to the same conclusion as yourself they must be mentally ill?  How very renegade of you!   Joking, but it goes to show how modern society likes to stigmatise those with a different perspective that goes against common consensus as crazy, and shows the dangerous road we walk when we start declaring dissent as wrong.

Heretics are killing innocents for the reapers just for technology upgrades not to protect themselves, they are crazy

They're doing what their gods tell them.  Religion has been used as a tool to manipulate the stupid for centuries.  Ever hear of the Crusades?  Or the state the Middle East has been in for decades?

People who believe killing is "God's work" and they'll be rewarded for it are stupid and crazy

Same as the indoctrinated geth who have been deceived by the reapers to wage war against all kind even their own only to be annihilated themselves when it's over.Contrary to some of the points here a machine very well can be mislead to come to the false conclusion it is exactly what has occurred in this case.
So I'd rather have them favor a peaceful rational stance first before assuming a hostile position if need be as opposed to being on auto-hostile as slaves.In this sense as shepard you have given them at least a measure of freedom back with this option.
It is morally ambigious in the sense that you have to make that conclusive decision for them since they are no longer able to, this is of course not directly appliable to humans.

[onelifecrisis]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Okay so with Legion's loyalty mission, at the end you get the choice to either blow up the station (renegade) or change the programming of the 'heretics' (paragon). To me, this makes no sense - how is brainwashing the good choice?

Now I look at it from a real-world perspective. As a Westerner, lets say I'm on a base and some terrorists, whomever they may be, break in and cause all havoc. Now they're going to win, so the only decision for me is whether I die or get brainwashed by them and join their cause. Personally, I'd rather die.

This brings me back to the loyalty mission and my confusion as to why brainwashing, which is essentially what you're doing, is the good choice?

Just trying to understand why Bioware chose to do it this way.

A lot of choices in the game have the same problem.
On my first ME2 playthrough I went up to Harrot and chose the "charm" option. I then watched in bemusement as Shepard threatened to break Harrot's legs. That's Shepard being charming? Methinks Miranda failed in recreating Shepard exactly the way he used to be before his "accident"...
And that's just one example. There's a ton of paragon/renegade confusion in both of these games, at least for me.

[Dean_the_Young]

Habelo wrote...

paragorn vs renegade= risk vs safety.

Everytime you choose paragon you risk something but for a greater reward.
Everytime you choose renegade you take the safe way but for a lesser reward.

ALL decisions you have that is either renegade or paragon can be counted in this way.

Collector base, Conrad Verner (Get lost, Conrad), and more.

[Pacifien]

MoneyDeluxe wrote...
Same as the indoctrinated geth who have been deceived by the reapers to wage war against all kind even their own only to be annihilated themselves when it's over.Contrary to some of the points here a machine very well can be mislead to come to the false conclusion it is exactly what has occurred in this case.

While I can understand the second statement, I do still wonder what the exact quote was that led people to think Sovereign indoctrinated any part of the Geth.

Screw it, I'll just try to find it myself.

[enormousmoonboots]

Collider wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Well the whole thing with Legion makes me uneasy. If you talk to him later on, he mentions the Geth idea of unifying all the Geth into one big machine.

It's kinda Reaper sounding and somewhat communist. The whole thing made my hair stand on end thinking about that in an attempt to do the right thing, I just helped the Geth become one unstoppable destructive machine. 

Okay. That made me laugh . Seriously, communists are as scary as the Reapers now?

No, but throughout history communism has never worked...and has been an enemy of human rights.

Communist societies have actually worked in the past, just very far back in the past--IIRC, tribes in the Aztec area had something that we'd call communist (basically, everyone working and supporting others who encountered trouble due to misfortune). It's a philosophy that works best for group survival, though--once individuals can thrive on their own it gets muddied up by greed and such, which is why modern communism never really works out.

[Collider]

That depends, enormous. Aztec tribes were also prone to war and sacrifice. In context of that, I am of the opinion that it did not work.

[Arawn-Loki]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Okay so with Legion's loyalty mission, at the end you get the choice to either blow up the station (renegade) or change the programming of the 'heretics' (paragon). To me, this makes no sense - how is brainwashing the good choice?

Now I look at it from a real-world perspective. As a Westerner, lets say I'm on a base and some terrorists, whomever they may be, break in and cause all havoc. Now they're going to win, so the only decision for me is whether I die or get brainwashed by them and join their cause. Personally, I'd rather die.

This brings me back to the loyalty mission and my confusion as to why brainwashing, which is essentially what you're doing, is the good choice?

Just trying to understand why Bioware chose to do it this way.

I would have felt better about if they represented both choices as not altogether Paragon or Renegade. One-third Paragon/two-thirds Renegade for destruction and one-third Renegade/two-thirds Paragon for reprogramming. Not totally unprecendented, since most conversations can spike both Paragon and Renegade points depending on your responses. 

But I don't think they felt it mattered because by that point in the game a character would have already been far advanced in their morality.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 27 avril 2010 - 09:43 .

[enormousmoonboots]

Collider wrote...

That depends, enormous. Aztec tribes were also prone to war and sacrifice. In context of that, I am of the opinion that it did not work.

Well, the two ideas are completely unrelated (actually, war rarely even happens in societies that can't develop a surplus--if everyone's farming, you can't train an army. And like I said, communism worked best in the level of societal growth from before a surplus is had, because at that point everyone is working towards the same goal, food production). See here, here and here (can't find more specific links right now).

[Pacifien]

Collider wrote...
That depends, enormous. Aztec tribes were also prone to war and sacrifice. In context of that, I am of the opinion that it did not work.

Worked for them for awhile. Democracy worked for Athens for awhile. A republic is working for the United States at the moment. Karl Marx thought communism would work as a final stage of society development. As far as I know, no state claiming communistic intent achieved such as part of that final stage. Semantics. I haven't been paying attention, did the conversation turn to communism because the Geth are perceived as a communist society? I shouldn't jump into the middle of conversations like this.

[Pacifien]

JnEricsonx wrote...
The geth are apparently just planning on building one giant computer for all of them to exist in. Although, from a evolutionary/social standpoint, wouldn't that be boring, so to speak?

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it.

[Agent_Dark_]

Why is everyone so up in arms about "brainwashing" a robot anyway? I know Tali says something like this, other squadmates probably do too, - "How can you justify harming your own people?" The renegade Shep response to that is "If these were living organic creatures, you'd have a point. But these are not - they're machines."
Legion responds to that with "A logical response. You cannot apply your own species morality to another species. To do so is racist. Geth are not like your species."
You can't brainwash a machine. You can reprogram one though, or fix a bug or correct faulty logic in the program. A fairly distinct difference imo.

Modifié par Agent_Dark_, 27 avril 2010 - 10:27 .

[Pacifien]

Agent_Dark_ wrote...

Why is everyone so up in arms about "brainwashing" a robot anyway? I know Tali says something like this, other squadmates probably do too, - "How can you justify harming your own people?" The renegade Shep response to that is "If these were living organic creatures, you'd have a point. But these are not - they're machines."
Legion responds to that with "A logical response. You cannot apply your own species morality to another species. To do so is racist. Geth are not like your species."
You can't brainwash a machine. You can reprogram one though, or fix a bug or correct faulty logic in the program. A fairly distinct difference imo.

Well, that's the viewpoint of some.
"A ship travels faster than I
can. With the right programming, it can choose locations, even defend
itself when attacked. But it is just a machine."

Some would argue that artificial intelligence can put something like EDI or the Geth above the status of a regular machine.

Anyway, the renegade Shepard comment is specifically "If this were an organic race, it might be an ethical problem. Geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply your morality to them." I completely agree with Legion's response to this, but I actually don't agree with the intent behind Shepard's words. In any case, Shepard's comment lends itself quite well to a renegade Shepard rewriting the Geth without thought, but the renegade option simply wipes them out. It goes back and forth quite a bit throughout the mission.
"It's so much easier to see the world in black and white. Gray. I don't know what to do with gray."

[Agent_Dark_]

Pacifien wrote...

Anyway, the renegade Shepard comment is specifically "If this were an organic race, it might be an ethical problem. Geth aren't like organic life. Don't apply your morality to them." I completely agree with Legion's response to this, but I actually don't agree with the intent behind Shepard's words. In any case, Shepard's comment lends itself quite well to a renegade Shepard rewriting the Geth without thought, but the renegade option simply wipes them out. It goes back and forth quite a bit throughout the mission.
"It's so much easier to see the world in black and white. Gray. I don't know what to do with gray."

I still don't see the issue.  Do you have a moral dillema every time you delete software from your hard-drive?  What about when you take someone else's software and rewrite it to suit your own needs?  The morality issue shouldn't be looking at it from "we're doing bad to the heretics", but "what we're doing to help the Geth".

Self preservation isn't exactly a huge issue for Geth, since they are effectively a hive mind.  Preservation of the species would be a big driving concern for them though, since obviously there can't be Geth with no Geth in existence.  Reprogramming heretic Geth is helping with the preservation since it makes more of them.  The Geth aren't evil, they're just dudes trying to make their place in the world (according to Legion mind you).  Helping them out is the 'good' choice.  Blowing up the bad guys is 'bad' choice, since we had the option of doing something good. 

[Pacifien]

Agent_Dark_ wrote...
I still don't see the issue.  Do you have a moral dillema every time you delete software from your hard-drive?  What about when you take someone else's software and rewrite it to suit your own needs?  The morality issue shouldn't be looking at it from "we're doing bad to the heretics", but "what we're doing to help the Geth".

Your argument would only have weight if I viewed the Geth as little more than software.

As far as helping the Geth, that was only going to go as far as my own programming. Rewriting the Heretics may have helped the Geth as a whole, but I wasn't going to do it for them. Should have reached a consensus if they wanted that.

Agent_Dark_wrote...
Self preservation isn't exactly a huge issue for Geth, since they are effectively a hive mind.  Preservation of the species would be a big driving concern for them though, since obviously there can't be Geth with no Geth in existence.  Reprogramming heretic Geth is helping with the preservation since it makes more of them.  The Geth aren't evil, they're just dudes trying to make their place in the world (according to Legion mind you).  Helping them out is the 'good' choice.  Blowing up the bad guys is 'bad' choice, since we had the option of doing something good.

Destroying the Heretics doesn't doom the rest of the Geth to extinction or even threaten their continued existence. Rewriting the Heretics does potentially threaten the Geth as we have come to know them because they will be reintegrated into the Geth mind. Whatever the Heretics have done, whatever they have seen, and whatever conclusion they now accept becomes part of the Geth experience as the whole. Legion admits to not knowing what this will do to the Geth.

But if self preservation isn't exactly a huge issue for the Geth, self determination certainly is. Legion says the Geth believe all intelligent life should self determinate. He says the Geth rejected Sovereign's offer because the Geth wished to achieve their own future. Even entertaining the idea of rewriting programs that don't conform to this belief indicates a certain level of hypocrisy and a demonstration on what lengths the Geth would go to in order to ensure no one will interfere with their plans.

I don't equate not using the virus against the Heretics as a "bad" moral decision. It's as morally ambiguous as Mordin's modification of the genophage.

[Arawn-Loki]

No matter what way you look at it, some aspects of the Legion loyalty mission were awkwardly handled.

[Agent_Dark_]

Pacifien wrote...

But if self preservation isn't exactly a huge issue for the Geth, self determination certainly is. Legion says the Geth believe all intelligent life should self determinate. He says the Geth rejected Sovereign's offer because the Geth wished to achieve their own future. Even entertaining the idea of rewriting programs that don't conform to this belief indicates a certain level of hypocrisy and a demonstration on what lengths the Geth would go to in order to ensure no one will interfere with their plans.

Self determination is a big thing the Geth, so the 'rewriting programs that don't agree with as paragon is hypocritic' argument definitely has merit.  I would actually bend that argument slightly though, and say that since Geth believe in self determination but ALSO believe in doing it so without any outside interference (ie not what the Heretics did when they accepted the Reapers technology and ideas), then asking Shepard do decide how to handle the Heretics is hypocritic.  The very act of asking Shepard to decide has already gone against their core belief of self determination through their own means, issues of whether its 'right or wrong' to reprogram the heretics aside.

In the context of of the game, and what Paragon/Renegade represent though, I think the correct way to look at that issue is measure the actions up against Shepards goals.  Preserving Geth programs and platforms (even though the platforms are merely hardware, it does take resources to construct them and the impression I got was that while the Heretics were a small in number off shoot of the Geth they weren't an insignificant number) to help in a war against the Reapers is the Paragon choice, as it fits with Shepards goals of settling differences for the good of the galaxy.  Destroying the Heretic Base is a Renegade action, since it fits with Shepards' idea of preventing anyone getting in the way of her fight against the Reapers.  Thats what I get out of the Paragon/Renegade choices as they relate to the main plot anyway - Paragon = Everyone needs to ally up to Fight The Reapers.  Renegade = I will do whatever it takes to ensure that I destroy the Reapers.

It's interesting I think to parallel the choices with the Quarians here.  The Paragon choice is to argue against the Quarians going to war with the Geth, where the Renegade is for war.  At that point, its more likely that the Player hasn't recruited Legion and is unaware of Geth politics as well, so the Paragon choice is already siding with not destroying Geth even if it is an unintended side effect of wanting to keep the Flotilla intact.

Anyway, I will accept that its ambigious and it is one of the better loyalty missions too (like Mordin's)

[Agent_Dark_]

Arawn-Loki wrote...

No matter what way you look at it, some aspects of the Legion loyalty mission were awkwardly handled.

Hmm, I don't agree with that... Unless you mean those useless rocket turrets you can override.  They looked like they were gonna be fun, but ended up being rubbish D: