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[FlintlockJazz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Briefly:

Yes, I do consider life the most important part of life. If you lose your life, you have no liberties, but if you lose your liberties but keep your life you can regain them.

Maybe, but if your conquerers are unable to take slaves then fighting to the death can deter them from continuing their conquest.  They are no longer able to take slaves, and they know that they will be fought every step of the way, making the cost potentially outweigh the benefits of conquest.  You die, but your family and people remain free.  Of course, this does not apply to the geth choice, its either a case of wiping them out completely or reprogramming them, but in some situations I can see it being less clear cut.

Or they might just kill you until you're dead as a matter of principle (Ghengis Khan), or until the only fragments left are willing to capitulate. I'm in no way denying or rejecting armed resistence to invasion: the cost-benefit holds true regardless. I'm talking about when you're already defeated and are offered a choice between dying now or living as a slave. The chance to resist by force has already passed.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Heretics are already trying to brainwash their views on others: they really have no argument in their own defense as to why it's not good for them if it's good for the rest of the geth.

You're already enforcing your views on the Heretics. You're going there to kill them, and to prevent them from doing the same to more. Killing them follows the rule that lives are paramount: not killing them will lead to more deaths. Not enforcing one's views on others is great as long as the varying views can coexist in peace. When one of them is genocidal, it's not protected.

True, but some could argue that just because the enemy intends to do something doesn't mean that you should or that its any more right.  The heretics have chosen, of their own free will, to take attack the geth as is their right as a independant group, but they are also obligated to accept the consequences of those actions, one of which is the geth defending themselves as is their right.  Destroying the base does not kill all the heretics, Legion says that there will still be pockets of them left, whereas reprogramming them will brainwash all of them except for those who are not connected to the network at the time but who will still get reprogrammed once they do so (and since it is via the network that they share information they won't know about the virus until they connect to the network...)

Personally I'd say those people need to be consistent when it comes to respecting other people's beliefs. If you hold that other people's beliefs need be respected, then by the Heretics own beliefs brainwashing is okay. If you kill them, however, you are imposing your own beliefs upon them, in which case you aren't respecting their beliefs, nor are you letting them hold them. Once they're dead, their beliefs are gone as well. So either you wipe out their beliefs without harming them, or you wipe out their beliefs and insist on killing them as well. Either way, you're destroying their beliefs.

The Heretics you don't kill on the station will be killed otherwise, by the True Geth, the Quarians, and the Alliance. And in the meantime, they'll do their best to hurt others and later aid the Reapers. Brainwashing ends the war with the Geth. Blowing the base keeps the danger alive.

Destroying the base could be argued as self defense and the consequence of war, whereas reprogramming could be argued as a hostile takeover.

Or as self-defense and a consequence of war: you'll be using them against the Reapers, after all. Back in the old days, it wasn't uncommon for armies to take the defeated and impress them into their own ranks.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Yes, chattel slavery is better than death. You can escape slavery, and bring justice later. You can do neither if you die instead.

Alot of times it doesn't though, instead you wind up helping the very nation that enslaved you, which then leads to them being able to enslave more people.  Edit: Also, breaking free usually costs lives, and so in breaking free you are accepting that the risk of death and the death of some of your comrades is better than being enslaved.  Also though, in some ways being a chattel slave is preferable to brainwashing: at least as a chattel slave you still retain control over your own thoughts, and able to try and break free, whereas someone who is brainwashed doesn't even know they are a slave.

Someone who has been brainwashed isn't a slave. They are a willing believer. If you've ever changed your mind after hearing a compelling argument, you have effectively been brainwashed.

Being a slave also allo ws you to harm the nation that enslaved you, both as a slave (such as the sabatoge slave laborers did to the German rocket program) and later as a possible escapee. That your accomplices can die in escapes/resistence is an accepted risk by you in doing so and it was their choice: people who don't want to risk their lives over freedom won't.

If a slaving power already enslaves you, they have the power to enslave more people other than you. Moreover, not all people are like you even if you do desire a braveheart. There will always be people who will submit than see their familes killed, and these people will already provide that basis of further expansion (however much/little it may be). Getting yourself killed does nothing, wheras resisting from within the slave position and escaping not only offers harm to the enemy, it forces them to dedicate increasing resources to counter the dangers of yourself, people like you, and otherwise compliant slaves you can mobilize, risks that would not occur if the only people taken as slaves were the ones inclined to be compliant. About the only way to prevent that would be if you killed everyone before they could be taken as slaves.

First off, I just want to say that at least half of me agrees with you. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]  This discussion we've been having is pretty much the same as the debate I have with myself whenever I do Legion's loyalty mission.  I will say that I consider there to be a difference between brainwashing and convincing someone of your argument:  convincing someone involves applying the information in a way that they are able to apply it to their logic process and come to the same conclusion, whereas brainwashing involves distorting their logic process to suit yours.  That's how I see it anyway.

Overall, I do end up rewriting most of the time, both options involve destruction of heretics' choice, but at least rewriting allows the geth to get stronger for when the reaper threat comes.  That some heretics survive the base being blown up though does make me wonder if on an ethical standpoint letting some of them live as they wanted would be better, but I doubt Bioware will do much with them other than the big "Are the geth stronger or not" choice.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 28 avril 2010 - 08:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, call me the angel of your better nature.

[Habelo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Habelo wrote...

paragorn vs renegade= risk vs safety.

Everytime you choose paragon you risk something but for a greater reward.
Everytime you choose renegade you take the safe way but for a lesser reward.

ALL decisions you have that is either renegade or paragon can be counted in this way.

Collector base, Conrad Verner (Get lost, Conrad), and more.

you will not get more of a reward for saving the collector base, its all about siding with TIM or not.

p-p-pwned

[Dean_the_Young]

Reaper Technology.

Why are some people so insistent on ignoring what the game explicitly spells out? First it was the Heretic math, now it's the Collector Base. What next? Are you going to insist that bedding Morinth won't kill you because, hey, she said it probably won't?

Heck, you can even keep ties with Cerberus if you do destroy the Collector Base, depending on the post-finale conversation. Tell TIM that you weren't going to sacrifice the soul of the species and that TIM works for Shepard now.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 avril 2010 - 12:39 .

[Habelo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Reaper Technology.

Why are some people so insistent on ignoring what the game explicitly spells out? First it was the Heretic math, now it's the Collector Base. What next? Are you going to insist that bedding Morinth won't kill you because, hey, she said it probably won't?

Heck, you can even keep ties with Cerberus if you do destroy the Collector Base, depending on the post-finale conversation. Tell TIM that you weren't going to sacrifice the soul of the species and that TIM works for Shepard now.

You make no sense mate, you do know  that sleeping with morinth kills you right?

[Dean_the_Young]

Yes. Just like I know that the Geth weren't indoctrinated or the result of a virus and were naturally inclined to follow the Reapers, and that keeping the Collector Base lets you get Reaper technology. These are all things the game hand feeds the player, and yet you've repeatedly insisted otherwise in the past. Three out of three would be keeping in the trend for you.

[Sina84]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Now I look at it from a real-world perspective. As a Westerner, lets say I'm on a base and some terrorists, whomever they may be, break in and cause all havoc. Now they're going to win, so the only decision for me is whether I die or get brainwashed by them and join their cause. Personally, I'd rather die.

Your analogy would only work if you were on that base and was utterly convinced that all life in the galaxy needed to be destroyed, and "terrorists" showed up to "brainwash" you into thinking all life should live in harmony. Because that's basically what you do in ME2. How is it confusing what the "good" choice is here?

[Habelo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. Just like I know that the Geth weren't indoctrinated or the result of a virus and were naturally inclined to follow the Reapers, and that keeping the Collector Base lets you get Reaper technology. These are all things the game hand feeds the player, and yet you've repeatedly insisted otherwise in the past. Three out of three would be keeping in the trend for you.

But if you actually get reaper technology from keeping the base then a victory without it is a greater victory then having it.

risk vs reward.

I was just giving you sweat time to think it out yourself, but as allways, i have to tell you how things work :/

[FFTARoxorz05]

You're either blowing them up or giving them a choice whether they want to continue or not. Although Legion says the virus will make them change, asking him later makes it seem like it'll just open up the possibility.

[tanarri23]

It you equal Paragon with good and Renegade with evil, it's not the first decision that looks messed up. But if you look at it as Paragon = prefers peaceful solutions and Renegade = prefers to solve everything with a bullet to the head, it makes sense. Brainwashing your enemy might be morally questionable, but it's still a peaceful solution

[Biotic_Warlock]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Okay so with Legion's loyalty mission, at the end you get the choice to either blow up the station (renegade) or change the programming of the 'heretics' (paragon). To me, this makes no sense - how is brainwashing the good choice?

Now I look at it from a real-world perspective. As a Westerner, lets say I'm on a base and some terrorists, whomever they may be, break in and cause all havoc. Now they're going to win, so the only decision for me is whether I die or get brainwashed by them and join their cause. Personally, I'd rather die.

This brings me back to the loyalty mission and my confusion as to why brainwashing, which is essentially what you're doing, is the good choice?

Just trying to understand why Bioware chose to do it this way.

better that than genecide.

[Zurcior]

What was it Legion said about no two races are alike and applying one races morality on another is racist or anthropomorphic? I forgot.

[Dean_the_Young]

Habelo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. Just like I know that the Geth weren't indoctrinated or the result of a virus and were naturally inclined to follow the Reapers, and that keeping the Collector Base lets you get Reaper technology. These are all things the game hand feeds the player, and yet you've repeatedly insisted otherwise in the past. Three out of three would be keeping in the trend for you.

But if you actually get reaper technology from keeping the base then a victory without it is a greater victory then having it.

risk vs reward.

I was just giving you sweat time to think it out yourself, but as allways, i have to tell you how things work :/

That's not risk vs. reward. That's just risk. There are plenty of risks you can take which don't give you any meaningful reward, and the Collector Base is one of them.

You spent the entire game picking up and researching other people's tech for your own advantage. The only way you can have perfect suicide mission in the first place is to take the fruit of other people and other species technology and add them to your own (Reaper tech included) space ship.

If you win the war without Reaper tech, a non-metagaming noncertainty, you'll do so with massive additional casualties, and not just human casualties. How is the additional deaths of millions, if not trillions, of Asari, Salarians, Turians, Geth, and Quarians a greater reward, unless you're a racist of such caliber that TIM would be disgusted? And when all the casualties are counted and mass effect technology is still advanced... you'll still be reinventing the general Reaper development paths.


And really? Sweat time? Granted, I'm probably closer to the equator than you, but it's actually pretty cool at the moment. Little sweating involved.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 avril 2010 - 04:19 .

[Zurcior]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Habelo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. Just like I know that the Geth weren't indoctrinated or the result of a virus and were naturally inclined to follow the Reapers, and that keeping the Collector Base lets you get Reaper technology. These are all things the game hand feeds the player, and yet you've repeatedly insisted otherwise in the past. Three out of three would be keeping in the trend for you.

But if you actually get reaper technology from keeping the base then a victory without it is a greater victory then having it.

risk vs reward.

I was just giving you sweat time to think it out yourself, but as allways, i have to tell you how things work :/

That's not risk vs. reward. That's just risk. There are plenty of risks you can take which don't give you any meaningful reward, and the Collector Base is one of them.

You spent the entire game picking up and researching other people's tech for your own advantage. The only way you can have perfect suicide mission in the first place is to take the fruit of other people and other species technology and add them to your own (Reaper tech included) space ship.

If you win the war without Reaper tech, a non-metagaming noncertainty, you'll do so with massive additional casualties, and not just human casualties. How is the additional deaths of millions, if not trillions, of Asari, Salarians, Turians, Geth, and Quarians a greater reward, unless you're a racist of such caliber that TIM would be disgusted? And when all the casualties are counted and mass effect technology is still advanced... you'll still be reinventing the general Reaper development paths.


And really? Sweat time? Granted, I'm probably closer to the equator than you, but it's actually pretty cool at the moment. Little sweating involved.

I don't think keeping the Base was a bad choice because of what it was used for ,but because you gave it to Cerberus. But that is a different debate, I think.

[Dean_the_Young]

No, it's always good.



Now, I assume you also refused the upgrade to the Thannix cannon for your ship? And use EDI?

[Dean_the_Young]

The Thannix cannon is also used by plenty of parties NOT under Shepard's authority. The rapport with EDI was built after extensive use with the Reaper-derived AI, which by the logic of 'do not touch Reaper-derived tech' should never have occured. Both systems are freely open to recreation and abuse by other parties Shepard does not control, and both were derived from Reapers... who created the basis of those technologies from the exact same unspeakable acts that bar you from using the Reaper tech in the base.



You can't stop other people from abusing Sovereign's tech derivatives (pure Reaper tech), and the point of the argument against taking the Collector Base is that people should never have the opportunity to bond with the tech in the first place. Yet you freely use both anyways.

[Xaijin]

Shandepared wrote...

Vanaer wrote...

Reprogamming the Geth seems to me like regaining control over a sleeping leg; they glitched into becoming Heretic, now we unglitch them. By letting them rejoin the Geth they become even more intelligent and simply 'more'.

There is no glitch.

There is no glitch.

There is no glitch.

Wrong. Just like you said all geth killed those trying to make contact, when Bioware had contact occur along the territory the Heretics controlled making combat pretty much a no brainer.

But thanks for playing.

[Habelo]

Zurcior wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Habelo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Yes. Just like I know that the Geth weren't indoctrinated or the result of a virus and were naturally inclined to follow the Reapers, and that keeping the Collector Base lets you get Reaper technology. These are all things the game hand feeds the player, and yet you've repeatedly insisted otherwise in the past. Three out of three would be keeping in the trend for you.

But if you actually get reaper technology from keeping the base then a victory without it is a greater victory then having it.

risk vs reward.

I was just giving you sweat time to think it out yourself, but as allways, i have to tell you how things work :/

That's not risk vs. reward. That's just risk. There are plenty of risks you can take which don't give you any meaningful reward, and the Collector Base is one of them.

You spent the entire game picking up and researching other people's tech for your own advantage. The only way you can have perfect suicide mission in the first place is to take the fruit of other people and other species technology and add them to your own (Reaper tech included) space ship.

If you win the war without Reaper tech, a non-metagaming noncertainty, you'll do so with massive additional casualties, and not just human casualties. How is the additional deaths of millions, if not trillions, of Asari, Salarians, Turians, Geth, and Quarians a greater reward, unless you're a racist of such caliber that TIM would be disgusted? And when all the casualties are counted and mass effect technology is still advanced... you'll still be reinventing the general Reaper development paths.


And really? Sweat time? Granted, I'm probably closer to the equator than you, but it's actually pretty cool at the moment. Little sweating involved.

I don't think keeping the Base was a bad choice because of what it was used for ,but because you gave it to Cerberus. But that is a different debate, I think.

nice, someone who can think ahead. The aftermath of the reaper battle, if you gave the reaper technology to TIM= less reward.

[Pacifien]

Xaijin wrote...
Wrong. Just like you said all geth killed those trying to make contact, when Bioware had contact occur along the territory the Heretics controlled making combat pretty much a no brainer.

But thanks for playing.

There's still no glitch.

Just because there was combat with the Heretics does not mean they were suffering from a glitch.

The closest you're going to get to Legion saying how Sovereign convinced the Heretics to join him is "The Heretics accepted their technology. The Old Machines offered to give us our future. The Geth will achieve our own future." Emphasis mine.

If you want to say there's a glitch, prove it. And thank you for playing.

[Pacifien]

Habelo wrote...
nice, someone who can think ahead. The aftermath of the reaper battle, if you gave the reaper technology to TIM= less reward.

Oh, I don't know. What if the Illusive Man is dead and you won the war against the Reapers? That'll probably be very rewarding. We won't know who gets to feel more rewarded with their choice until it happens, I think.