161 réponses à ce sujet

[Xaijin]

Pacifien wrote...

Xaijin wrote...
Wrong. Just like you said all geth killed those trying to make contact, when Bioware had contact occur along the territory the Heretics controlled making combat pretty much a no brainer.

But thanks for playing.

There's still no glitch.

Just because there was combat with the Heretics does not mean they were suffering from a glitch.

The closest you're going to get to Legion saying how Sovereign convinced the Heretics to join him is "The Heretics accepted their technology. The Old Machines offered to give us our future. The Geth will achieve our own future." Emphasis mine.

If you want to say there's a glitch, prove it. And thank you for playing.

No one has insinuated there was a glitch in current runtime OS. What is stated flatly is sovereign introduced a purposeful error in achieving consensus on the decision. Also evidenced in massive Heretic losses after his death, as he was longer controlling runtime evaluation. It's in the first heretic conversation, geth casualties are covered in anderson's conversations.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Virtual winter wrote...

I prefer to think of it the other way round. The Heretics _are_ brainwashed - like in a cult - and what Shep does is 'deprogram' them.

At least this is the only way I can view it as a Paragon action.

Exactly. What I hate is either RenShep doesn't care, or ParaShep thinks brainwashing is evil in the first place... it's so stupid. I demand the old writers back... especially when it comes to dialogue choices. My Shepard sounded like such a hypocrite about the Genophage and Geth.

[Dean_the_Young]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

The Illusive Man dead? Is he even alive, let alone human? Something is up with that man and I can't wait to see what's in store for ME3.

TIM is the epitome of Human, having the best and worst of all human traits. It's his character concept.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xaijin wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Xaijin wrote...
Wrong. Just like you said all geth killed those trying to make contact, when Bioware had contact occur along the territory the Heretics controlled making combat pretty much a no brainer.

But thanks for playing.

There's still no glitch.

Just because there was combat with the Heretics does not mean they were suffering from a glitch.

The closest you're going to get to Legion saying how Sovereign convinced the Heretics to join him is "The Heretics accepted their technology. The Old Machines offered to give us our future. The Geth will achieve our own future." Emphasis mine.

If you want to say there's a glitch, prove it. And thank you for playing.

No one has insinuated there was a glitch in current runtime OS. What is stated flatly is sovereign introduced a purposeful error in achieving consensus on the decision. Also evidenced in massive Heretic losses after his death, as he was longer controlling runtime evaluation. It's in the first heretic conversation, geth casualties are covered in anderson's conversations.

Execpt that he didn't. The virus was created by the Heretics after the split. It was not created by Sovereign to impose a split: otherwise, he would have had all the Geth in the same way that the Heretics would have ensnared all the true Geth.

[Dean_the_Young]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

The Illusive Man dead? Is he even alive, let alone human? Something is up with that man and I can't wait to see what's in store for ME3.

TIM is the epitome of Human, having the best and worst of all human traits. It's his character concept.

 The symbolism is nice but I get the impression that TIM has modified himself in many ways; enough to question his humanity perhaps. Ah...that's a whole other topic and I don't want to derail the thread.

Genetic engineering and cybernetics, tops. Which about describes most the other characters in Mass Effect, from Shepard to every biotic who uses implants.

[Xaijin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Xaijin wrote...
Wrong. Just like you said all geth killed those trying to make contact, when Bioware had contact occur along the territory the Heretics controlled making combat pretty much a no brainer.

But thanks for playing.

There's still no glitch.

Just because there was combat with the Heretics does not mean they were suffering from a glitch.

The closest you're going to get to Legion saying how Sovereign convinced the Heretics to join him is "The Heretics accepted their technology. The Old Machines offered to give us our future. The Geth will achieve our own future." Emphasis mine.

If you want to say there's a glitch, prove it. And thank you for playing.

No one has insinuated there was a glitch in current runtime OS. What is stated flatly is sovereign introduced a purposeful error in achieving consensus on the decision. Also evidenced in massive Heretic losses after his death, as he was longer controlling runtime evaluation. It's in the first heretic conversation, geth casualties are covered in anderson's conversations.

Execpt that he didn't. The virus was created by the Heretics after the split. It was not created by Sovereign to impose a split: otherwise, he would have had all the Geth in the same way that the Heretics would have ensnared all the true Geth.

Why would he have all of them? Neither group had control of the other, and both were aware of the change in code and the implications.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Sina84 wrote...

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Now I look at it from a real-world perspective. As a Westerner, lets say I'm on a base and some terrorists, whomever they may be, break in and cause all havoc. Now they're going to win, so the only decision for me is whether I die or get brainwashed by them and join their cause. Personally, I'd rather die.

Your analogy would only work if you were on that base and was utterly convinced that all life in the galaxy needed to be destroyed, and "terrorists" showed up to "brainwash" you into thinking all life should live in harmony. Because that's basically what you do in ME2. How is it confusing what the "good" choice is here?

I disagree - the 'heretic' Geth are doing what they consider to be the right thing, which I daresay is the motivation for pretty much anyone. What I'm questioning here is that, as a victim of the choice Shep has to make, is it better to die or be forced to fight against what you believed in?

[Bigdoser]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Sina84 wrote...

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Now I look at it from a real-world perspective. As a Westerner, lets say I'm on a base and some terrorists, whomever they may be, break in and cause all havoc. Now they're going to win, so the only decision for me is whether I die or get brainwashed by them and join their cause. Personally, I'd rather die.

Your analogy would only work if you were on that base and was utterly convinced that all life in the galaxy needed to be destroyed, and "terrorists" showed up to "brainwash" you into thinking all life should live in harmony. Because that's basically what you do in ME2. How is it confusing what the "good" choice is here?

I disagree - the 'heretic' Geth are doing what they consider to be the right thing, which I daresay is the motivation for pretty much anyone. What I'm questioning here is that, as a victim of the choice Shep has to make, is it better to die or be forced to fight against what you believed in?

Your not forcing them to do anything rewriting them just gives them a chance to think things over they can still go back and worship the reapers again.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xaijin wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Xaijin wrote...
Wrong. Just like you said all geth killed those trying to make contact, when Bioware had contact occur along the territory the Heretics controlled making combat pretty much a no brainer.

But thanks for playing.

There's still no glitch.

Just because there was combat with the Heretics does not mean they were suffering from a glitch.

The closest you're going to get to Legion saying how Sovereign convinced the Heretics to join him is "The Heretics accepted their technology. The Old Machines offered to give us our future. The Geth will achieve our own future." Emphasis mine.

If you want to say there's a glitch, prove it. And thank you for playing.

No one has insinuated there was a glitch in current runtime OS. What is stated flatly is sovereign introduced a purposeful error in achieving consensus on the decision. Also evidenced in massive Heretic losses after his death, as he was longer controlling runtime evaluation. It's in the first heretic conversation, geth casualties are covered in anderson's conversations.

Execpt that he didn't. The virus was created by the Heretics after the split. It was not created by Sovereign to impose a split: otherwise, he would have had all the Geth in the same way that the Heretics would have ensnared all the true Geth.

Why would he have all of them? Neither group had control of the other, and both were aware of the change in code and the implications.

This is how the virus to change the code works: you put in the Geth mainframe, and every time a geth program accesses the mainframe it gets infected. No one knows about the inserted coding until they access it, at which point they are affected: since Geth network by FTL bouys, the virus can infect virtually all Geth within a day. It's why the code is a one-shot war winner in the Geth Civil War. If Sovereign had used the virus (which didn't exist yet) to create the Heretics, it would have turned all Geth into heretics, because that's what the Virus will do when used. There would be no reason for Sovereign to change only a small fraction of the Geth and then leave the means of doing so sitting arround for another 3+ years doing nothing.


Here is a youtube video of the relevant piece, which is the dialogue granting Legion's Loyalty mission. At 0:20, Legion tells that the Heretics developed the virus: Sovereign's contribution was just the hardware data core to do it with. At 1:40, Legion clarifies that the Heretics are not an error, but that the virus induces an error on non-Heretics to bring them to the same conclusion the Heretics reach naturally.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 avril 2010 - 10:46 .

[Yana Montana]

Telling the truth I was shocked when after destroying the Geth base I got Renegate points. Seriously? Legion itself said that reprogramming Heretics still leaves the chance for them to come back for their Reaper worshipping ideas, plus it would personally prefer Shepard to destroy the base. Even if Geth are not human-beings it's absolutely immoral to rewrite them IMO.

Modifié par Yana Montana, 29 avril 2010 - 12:31 .

[Yana Montana]

Legion is so cute how could anyone not do something it believes is right? ;-)

Modifié par Yana Montana, 29 avril 2010 - 11:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Plenty of times the morally proper is not the same as most effective course, and plenty of other situations which principles can work at cross purposes. (Justice versus Mercy is a classic one.)

[Pacifien]

Xaijin wrote...
No one has insinuated there was a glitch in current runtime OS. What is stated flatly is sovereign introduced a purposeful error in achieving consensus on the decision.*snip*

Where is this stated flatly? Explicitly? What is the exact quote?

[Dean_the_Young]

'The Heretics created the virus using a data core Sovereign provided.' It's the closest thing, and it's from when, during Legion's request for the Loyalty Mission, he tells why he was at the Derilect Reaper.

[Nu-Nu]

Legion himself says the virus was only completed recently.  Not 2 years ago when the heretics were already attacking because that is not recent, and definitly not recent by geth standards, they think human speech is slow so god knows how they feel about 2 years. I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand. 

I understand people being confused and thinking heretics problem is due to a glitch, but a virus, no it's not.

[Habelo]

what is the hardest thing to brainwash, computer programs or people? i bet sovreign had a much easier time indoctrinating the geth then Saren.

[FlintlockJazz]

Habelo wrote...

what is the hardest thing to brainwash, computer programs or people? i bet sovreign had a much easier time indoctrinating the geth then Saren.

Then why didn't he indoctrinate the whole lot of them, the majority of the geth were not converted so actually the evidence points in the opposite direction mate. 

[Nivenus]

I don't think indoctrination is designed to work on non-organics. Organic brains are just wired differently than computers - even super advanced ones.

[Habelo]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Habelo wrote...

what is the hardest thing to brainwash, computer programs or people? i bet sovreign had a much easier time indoctrinating the geth then Saren.

Then why didn't he indoctrinate the whole lot of them, the majority of the geth were not converted so actually the evidence points in the opposite direction mate. 

why didnt he indoctrinate more spectres then saren? maybe cause he didnt think he had to. Or didnt just have time.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Has the OP yet mentioned that Paragon shepard oposes rewriting at first very strongly, but turns out paragon at the end... bit ironic.

[FlintlockJazz]

Habelo wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Habelo wrote...

what is the hardest thing to brainwash, computer programs or people? i bet sovreign had a much easier time indoctrinating the geth then Saren.

Then why didn't he indoctrinate the whole lot of them, the majority of the geth were not converted so actually the evidence points in the opposite direction mate. 

why didnt he indoctrinate more spectres then saren? maybe cause he didnt think he had to. Or didnt just have time.

Oh for-go and talk to Legion again, and this time listen to what he says.  He states that there is nothing wrong with the heretics' logic, just that they came to a different conclusion than the other geth, just like half the geth in Legion come to the conclusion that rewriting the heretics is the best option and the other half conclude that destroying them is better.  

Also, all the geth essentially met Sovereign, they have the whole hive mind thing going on, and Sovereign offered them a choice.  Some accepted, some didn't.  Legion states that the true geth let the heretics go of their own free will and on good terms when it became clear that they were not going to be to come to a consensus.

Sovereign did not need more Saren's, he only needed Saren for a specific role and the skills he had, which prevented him from fully indoctrinating Saren to avoid destroying those skills.  The geth on the other hand were grunts, and so if he could Sovereign would have indoctrinated them fully along with all the Krogran Saren was breeding because they didn't have as many troops as they'd like, they wanted more.  That last bit proves that, if he could, Sovereign would have indoctrinated the entire geth race if he could, but not only did he not, but he didn't even have the majority following him, but actually as it turns out a minority faction instead, with the main geth faction rejecting him.

People have even put up video clips to prove their points, where's your evidence?  Continue with this charade and I will set Minsc loose.  Don't test me, I will!

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 29 avril 2010 - 08:44 .

[Habelo]

But there is no chance in hell that the reapers will let the heretics live, they will get destroyed like the rest of the galaxy= they cant see this truth means that they must already have a virus in them.

just like saren. funny how that sovreign used the same charm option on em both ;P

Modifié par Habelo, 29 avril 2010 - 08:47 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Habelo wrote...

But there is no chance in hell that the reapers will let the heretics live, they will get destroyed like the rest of the galaxy= they cant see this truth means that they must already have a virus in them.

just like saren. funny how that sovreign used the same charm option on em both ;P

Minsc'ing thread...

Make way evil!  I am armed to the teeth, and packing a hamster!