161 réponses à ce sujet

[gloowacz]

as a democracy believer i went for reprogram for one simple reason - there were more subroutines voting for rewrite than for elimination. (2 or 3 more i belive?)



that's why it's an paragon option in my opinion.

i'm not convinced that Heretics were reprogrammed by reapers/nazara, they just came to conclusion that helping them is the best course of action.

[Habelo]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Habelo wrote...

But there is no chance in hell that the reapers will let the heretics live, they will get destroyed like the rest of the galaxy= they cant see this truth means that they must already have a virus in them.

just like saren. funny how that sovreign used the same charm option on em both ;P

Minsc'ing thread...

Make way evil!  I am armed to the teeth, and packing a hamster!

haha i lol'd. Funny how stupid people goes for other ways then facts to try to get their point of view above everyone. Well gl mate, atleast you made me laugh.

[Habelo]

gloowacz wrote...

as a democracy believer i went for reprogram for one simple reason - there were more subroutines voting for rewrite than for elimination. (2 or 3 more i belive?)

that's why it's an paragon option in my opinion.
i'm not convinced that Heretics were reprogrammed by reapers/nazara, they just came to conclusion that helping them is the best course of action.

so... if 51% of the world wanted to exterminate all of the chinese people it would be a paragon thing cause it is democracy?

Didnt this kinda happen in **** germany ? 


edit: HAHAH omfg the most ridicilous **** ever!! srsly i cant say ****? how about communist? hitler?

Modifié par Habelo, 29 avril 2010 - 09:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Habelo wrote...


haha i lol'd. Funny how stupid people goes for other ways then facts to try to get their point of view above everyone. Well gl mate, atleast you made me laugh.

Everyone is entitled to their own point of view. They are not entitled to their own facts. If you are wrong, you are not immune to correction. And when you repeatedly insist on being wrong, you are open to mockery.

[Habelo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Habelo wrote...


haha i lol'd. Funny how stupid people goes for other ways then facts to try to get their point of view above everyone. Well gl mate, atleast you made me laugh.

Everyone is entitled to their own point of view. They are not entitled to their own facts. If you are wrong, you are not immune to correction. And when you repeatedly insist on being wrong, you are open to mockery.

awwh the irony that you comment and does the same thing that i comment about ;P

and there is allways a physsicall fact.

[Dean_the_Young]

Indeed. And the physical fact is that the game says the Heretics aren't indoctrinated. The Heretics won't even be killed: in the talk with Virgil, it's pretty much stated that the Geth are going to replace the Keepers, in order to be more reliable keeprs of the Citadel.

Edit: Hey, what do you know! That makes you wrong on three things now! Three out of three!

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 29 avril 2010 - 10:24 .

[Habelo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Indeed. And the physical fact is that the game says the Heretics aren't indoctrinated. The Heretics won't even be killed: in the talk with Virgil, it's pretty much stated that the Geth are going to replace the Keepers, in order to be more reliable keeprs of the Citadel.

doesnt saren say something like "we just have to prove that we can be usefull and then the reapers will let us live as slaves".

Well i guess that the "physsical-fact" was that he wasnt indoctrinated 

[Dean_the_Young]

And what does Saren, a biological susceptible to indoctrination, have to do with the Geth, who are immune to Indoctrination fields on account of being, you know, synthetic?

[NYG1991]

Vigil from ME1 said that. I must have missed that

[Darkhour]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Okay so with Legion's loyalty mission, at the end you get the choice to either blow up the station (renegade) or change the programming of the 'heretics' (paragon). To me, this makes no sense - how is brainwashing the good choice?

Now I look at it from a real-world perspective. As a Westerner, lets say I'm on a base and some terrorists, whomever they may be, break in and cause all havoc. Now they're going to win, so the only decision for me is whether I die or get brainwashed by them and join their cause. Personally, I'd rather die.

This brings me back to the loyalty mission and my confusion as to why brainwashing, which is essentially what you're doing, is the good choice?

Just trying to understand why Bioware chose to do it this way.

You are looking at it all wrong.

Logical and Explosion equals renegade
Boring and Idealism equals paragon... except when it doesn't.

Morally, neither options were bad. All heretic geth are combatants. There are no children or civilian heretics. Ttherefore, destroying them is not unethical. If it were, it would be just as unethical to kill them at any other time you encounter them.

Legion in a later dialog (or was it a condex update?) says that Soveriegn corrupted the heretics, although I don't know if he meant it literally or figuratively. Assuming Soveriegn didn't do something to influence them, letting them continue seems... stupid. The impression I got from the dialog before the decision at the main console in Heretic Station was that the heretics would probably come to the same conclusion again if the reapers made the offer a second time. Sparing them seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

[Dean_the_Young]

There is no 'probably' as in that it's likely. There is a "non-zero" probability, which is about as absolute a euphemism for 'not going to happen' as 'you are not going to win the lottery' or 'you will not die today.'

[Darkhour]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

There is no 'probably' as in that it's likely. There is a "non-zero" probability, which is about as absolute a euphemism for 'not going to happen' as 'you are not going to win the lottery' or 'you will not die today.'

I read that as "other than zero" probability which places it anywhere between a 0.000000000001% chance to 99.9999999999% chance (if not 100%). In otherwords: I don't know. Neither myself, anyone I know or ever have known would have used the term "non-zero" so could you point me to a source that explains what that euphemism means. Is this a common term? Seems like saying "a zero probability" would be more direct. Especially coming from a robot. Maybe it's a term used more in Canada. *shrug* 

Thanks for the clarification anyway.

Modifié par Darkhour, 30 avril 2010 - 12:03 .

[Habelo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And what does Saren, a biological susceptible to indoctrination, have to do with the Geth, who are immune to Indoctrination fields on account of being, you know, synthetic?

v-v-virus.

first lure em in with promises of power or something that they want. Then mess their brain (software) up. Their reasoning is much like Sarens.

Srsly use your own brain, stop using mine. If you never think for yourself you will never be able to either. Now dat is a pradox hmm.

[Dean_the_Young]

Habelo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And what does Saren, a biological susceptible to indoctrination, have to do with the Geth, who are immune to Indoctrination fields on account of being, you know, synthetic?

v-v-virus.

first lure em in with promises of power or something that they want. Then mess their brain (software) up. Their reasoning is much like Sarens.

Srsly use your own brain, stop using mine. If you never think for yourself you will never be able to either. Now dat is a pradox hmm.

The virus did not exist. The virus only exists in the time frame of ME2, and it hasn't been used yet. We've already found clips of the game telling just that. We also have Legion's own words as to why the Heretics are not under the effect of any sort of error. Moreover, the Heretics are established as completely different from Saren. The game is open about all of the above.

Indoctrination as a passive effect does not work against the Geth, because they are biological. Those who have followed the Reapers have done so without coercion.

[Dean_the_Young]

Darkhour wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

There is no 'probably' as in that it's likely. There is a "non-zero" probability, which is about as absolute a euphemism for 'not going to happen' as 'you are not going to win the lottery' or 'you will not die today.'

I read that as "other than zero" probability which places it anywhere between a 0.000000000001% chance to 99.9999999999% chance (if not 100%). In otherwords: I don't know. Neither myself, anyone I know or ever have known would have used the term "non-zero" so could you point me to a source that explains what that euphemism means. Is this a common term? Seems like saying "a zero probability" would be more direct. Especially coming from a robot. Maybe it's a term used more in Canada. *shrug* 

Thanks for the clarification anyway.

A source? It's about the same as asking for a source as the meaning of slang. Try urban dictionary if you must.

Saying non-zero is saying that while, yes, it is possible, the likelyhood is extremely low. It's not zero, however, so it's an admission that hedges the bets. Shepard asks can it happen again, Legion can not say it absolutely will not (though the point of the virus is that it will be successful), and so he admits it.

Another way to look for it would be the inverse: there is a non-zero probability that the Virus would not have worked on the true Geth, for the same reason. Now, is that to imply in any way that there's a good chance that the Virus would not have worked?

[Habelo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Habelo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And what does Saren, a biological susceptible to indoctrination, have to do with the Geth, who are immune to Indoctrination fields on account of being, you know, synthetic?

v-v-virus.

first lure em in with promises of power or something that they want. Then mess their brain (software) up. Their reasoning is much like Sarens.

Srsly use your own brain, stop using mine. If you never think for yourself you will never be able to either. Now dat is a pradox hmm.

The virus did not exist. The virus only exists in the time frame of ME2, and it hasn't been used yet. We've already found clips of the game telling just that. We also have Legion's own words as to why the Heretics are not under the effect of any sort of error. Moreover, the Heretics are established as completely different from Saren. The game is open about all of the above.

Indoctrination as a passive effect does not work against the Geth, because they are biological. Those who have followed the Reapers have done so without coercion.

so, we know *everything*? Noppe, could be a bunch of stuff that sovreign did to the heretrics that we dont know about. And according to legion, if geth go against logic then something must be wrong with them, like virus/indoctrination.

[Dean_the_Young]

Not really, unless you're into baseless speculation against the game's lore, at which point you're not even claiming to be consistent. Legion's discussion (previous page, if you missed it) directly states that there's nothing wrong with the Heretic logic.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 avril 2010 - 12:51 .

[Habelo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not really, unless you're into baseless speculation against the game's lore. Legion's discussion (previous page, if you missed it) directly states that there's nothing wrong with the Heretic logic.

sigh, i am beginning to loose hope in you.

logic when leaving: fine (legion said so)

logic later: like sarens (legion states nothing about this)

[Qwepir]

Dunno if this has been posted yet, but I'm pretty sure Legion says applying your ideals to other races is anthropomorphism, even borderline racism.



And you know how geth hate it when you athropomorphise.

[FlintlockJazz]

Habelo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not really, unless you're into baseless speculation against the game's lore. Legion's discussion (previous page, if you missed it) directly states that there's nothing wrong with the Heretic logic.

sigh, i am beginning to loose hope in you.

logic when leaving: fine (legion said so)

logic later: like sarens (legion states nothing about this)

I lost hope in you a while back.

I have lost myself in your words, but Boo thinks you are just ducky.  Onward!

[Dean_the_Young]

Habelo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not really, unless you're into baseless speculation against the game's lore. Legion's discussion (previous page, if you missed it) directly states that there's nothing wrong with the Heretic logic.

sigh, i am beginning to loose hope in you.

logic when leaving: fine (legion said so)

logic later: like sarens (legion states nothing about this)

Saren't logic was that helping the Reapers would allow a margin of civilization to survive. Heretic logic at the end was exactly what it was at the beginning. Heretic logic never changed.

[Wildecker]

Darkhour wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

There is no 'probably' as in that it's likely. There is a "non-zero" probability, which is about as absolute a euphemism for 'not going to happen' as 'you are not going to win the lottery' or 'you will not die today.'

I read that as "other than zero" probability which places it anywhere between a 0.000000000001% chance to 99.9999999999% chance (if not 100%). In otherwords: I don't know. Neither myself, anyone I know or ever have known would have used the term "non-zero" so could you point me to a source that explains what that euphemism means. Is this a common term? Seems like saying "a zero probability" would be more direct. Especially coming from a robot. Maybe it's a term used more in Canada. *shrug* 

Thanks for the clarification anyway.

That's the exact way of expressing things. It may be extremely unlikely that every human being in the US of A opens the refrigerator at the exact same time during Superbowl, causing so many lights to flicker on that the national power grid collapses. But "extremely unlikely" does not mean "It's just not going to happen, dude. Not ever." Therefore, not a zero probability.
There are pretty few things that a hard-boiled mathematician would assign a solid zero probability to.

[Wildecker]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Saren's logic was that helping the Reapers would allow a margin of civilization to survive. Heretic logic at the end was exactly what it was at the beginning. Heretic logic never changed.

Well, Saren was not entirely wrong. But if he had met the Collectors early enough he might have reconsidered his approach. "The Reapers will not just throw away useful tools" - right, they didn't. They kept the Keepers and the Collectors but exterminated their culture and identity.

Modifié par Wildecker, 30 avril 2010 - 12:21 .

[Habelo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Habelo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not really, unless you're into baseless speculation against the game's lore. Legion's discussion (previous page, if you missed it) directly states that there's nothing wrong with the Heretic logic.

sigh, i am beginning to loose hope in you.

logic when leaving: fine (legion said so)

logic later: like sarens (legion states nothing about this)

Saren't logic was that helping the Reapers would allow a margin of civilization to survive. Heretic logic at the end was exactly what it was at the beginning. Heretic logic never changed.

The more you know about the reapers and what they do the more indoctrinated you are if your logic doesnt change.

[Dean_the_Young]

Habelo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Habelo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not really, unless you're into baseless speculation against the game's lore. Legion's discussion (previous page, if you missed it) directly states that there's nothing wrong with the Heretic logic.

sigh, i am beginning to loose hope in you.

logic when leaving: fine (legion said so)

logic later: like sarens (legion states nothing about this)

Saren't logic was that helping the Reapers would allow a margin of civilization to survive. Heretic logic at the end was exactly what it was at the beginning. Heretic logic never changed.

The more you know about the reapers and what they do the more indoctrinated you are if your logic doesnt change.

The Geth already knew what the Reapers do with organics. As the Geth are not organic, and the Reapers are hive-mind AI like them, what the Reapers do to organics is irrelevant to what deals it can make with the Geth, who are AI like the Reapers.

That Sovereign did not appreciate the Geth's devotion was secret from them. There also remained nothing supporting that the Heretics would be massacred as well.

Geth can not be Indoctrinated: Indoctrination is a field-effect on biologicals. The virus is not Indoctrination, nor was it ever used against the Heretics. That the Heretics have no problem with the Reaper or with helping in their intentions is a viewpoint difference we don't tolerate. It is not a sign of indoctrination.