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[Sky Shadowing]

I99I Dragoon wrote...

Sky Shadowing wrote...

This topic has been debated to death, and as has been pointed out, it makes no sense to write out every character.

To be particular, Tali could be exiled and in love with your character (if that's true, where the hell else would she rather be?), Garrus has no family, friends, and is possibly in love with your character. There is no excuse to write these two, at least out, and there are similar reasons for other characters not getting written out (Miranda openly resigns from Cerberus, Jacob indicates that he's not going anywhere, etc) Now, these chars are "love interests", so naturally, if THEY come back, EVERY love interest, by default, has to come back just to make the game "fair" to the LI junkies. That's Ashley/Kaidan, Liara, Garrus, Tali, Jack, Miranda, Jacob, and Thane. That's 9 squadmates, a good number.

Now, for those above who are dead, sub them out for new squadmates. For non-import saves (not calling them canon as everybody has a different "canon") have it be Tali, Garrus, Miranda, Jacob, A/K, Liara, and 3 "new" squadmates. Now, if the "confrontation" between ME1 and ME2 LIs takes place, subtract the one you don't choose.

Basically, if Bioware makes one LI recruitable, by default, they all have to be recruitable.

That'll work, but if thats taken care of, wouldn't it be easier to write out the other squaddies as well? Putting them in or having them out if they died doesn't seem to be difficult.....keyword *seem*

It doesn't, but I'm speculating in it regards to a "bare minimum" thing.. If they intend to bring Liara back, that means some people will have a LI, some will not, and those that do not will not be happy.

By all means, I'd love it if Samara, Grunt, and Legion stuck around. I'm just looking at logical scenarios, which the most logical is One LI means All LIs.

[jlb524]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

Fairness. Let me put it this way, if Tali were recruitable as a full-fledged companion with multiple dialouge arcts depending on LI status, and Liara were not, would you be happy about it? Bioware knows that their hardcore fans would not be very happy if their "romance" got shafted while somebody else did not.

If you got your LI KILLED, that's your fault and nothing that Bioware can do to fix it- as it should be.

I don't think they care about fairness.  Tali's been in two games....Ashley one.  How is that fair?  I'd rather have Ash back in ME3 than Tali.

Besides, the romances can continue in meaninful ways outside of squad mate status.  They can just park Tali on the flotilla and you can go talk with/flirt with her whenever you want.  If she's dead, they pick another quarian to fill up her 'role', minus the flirting.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

Basically, if Bioware makes one LI recruitable, by default, they all have to be recruitable.

All ME1 LIs recruitable. All ME2 LIs not.

Liara: Shepard, you dog! Cheated on me!
Shepard: (1) Liara, I am sorry. I love only you.
                (2) Liara, I am sorry. I have moved on.
Liara: (1) Uh.. OK. [Ligths go out, incoherent noises]
          (2) Un... OK. [Slaps Shepard in the face, bursts in tears]

Next day...

[insert ME2 LI], cameoing: Hi, Shep! I love you, darlin'!
Shepard: (1) Hi... Look I have to say something to you, and I don't know how to begin...
               (2) Hi, darlin'! Can't wait to get busy with ya!
[insert ME2 LI], cameoing: (1) Oh, I see... You, dog! [Slaps Shepard in the face, bursts in tears]
                                          (2) Same here! [Ligths go out, incoherent noises]

__________________________________

Now, can we return to the Reapers, please?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 avril 2010 - 09:18 .

[Nozybidaj]

Sky Shadowing wrote...
]I can't, which is as it should be. You got Tali killed, it's your playthrough, your decision.

Don't blame me when the Quarians absolutely hate your guts for destroying their culture and killing the most famous of all Quarians.

Again though, folks who think BW is just going to leave people hanging out there with most of their squad missing are fooling themselves. 

If we need a 12 member squad we are going to have it whether everyone lived in ME2 or not.  If we need the Quarian fleet we will be able to get it whether Tali is dead or moving her things into the Captain's Cabin.  BW isn't just going to up and say "oh you got person X, Y, or Z killed?  Too bad your game now sucks", don't be ridiculous.

The also aren't going to create "stand ins" just in case someone died.  We already have, what, 17 characters?  16 of which can be dead.  They aren't going to create 33 individual characters just to make sure everyone has what they need.

Like Zulu said, the opening of ME3 is going to put everyone on equal footing, full squad saves, full squad deaths, and new players to the series.

[Sky Shadowing]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Sky Shadowing wrote...
]I can't, which is as it should be. You got Tali killed, it's your playthrough, your decision.

Don't blame me when the Quarians absolutely hate your guts for destroying their culture and killing the most famous of all Quarians.

Again though, folks who think BW is just going to leave people hanging out there with most of their squad missing are fooling themselves. 

If we need a 12 member squad we are going to have it whether everyone lived in ME2 or not.  If we need the Quarian fleet we will be able to get it whether Tali is dead or moving her things into the Captain's Cabin.  BW isn't just going to up and say "oh you got person X, Y, or Z killed?  Too bad your game now sucks", don't be ridiculous.

The also aren't going to create "stand ins" just in case someone died.  We already have, what, 17 characters?  16 of which can be dead.  They aren't going to create 33 individual characters just to make sure everyone has what they need.

Like Zulu said, the opening of ME3 is going to put everyone on equal footing, full squad saves, full squad deaths, and new players to the series.

Not even in ME2 do you need 12 squadmates. You can make do with 8 (sell Legion, leave Grunt unopened, and not have Zaeed and Kasumi). If you have all upgrades and all loyal, you can still get all 8 out alive.

Let's say you made it out with 2 characters. You add back in Liara, Virmire Survivor, and 3 new squadmates. That gives you 8. If, as everybody predicts, ME3 is less about character development and more about story, you don't even need to have the "new" squadmates say anything, maybe say "I'm paid to fight, not talk." A cheap excuse, but a way to ensure everybody has a "fair" playthrough.

I wouldn't mind (too much) if Bioware said "nobody comes back period because of logical, story-driven reasons". But the evidence I said earlier indicates that if they're alive, some characters will return. And if they completely screw these characters over (when we all know Liara and Virmire survivor were kept alive because they have a story-driven role in ME3), it doesn't make sense and will leave a lot of loyal players angry.

In regards to story, you have a group of imported survivors to ensure new players get the maximum story. If you import, you played it, you should have to reap what you sow. I'm not saying screw the player out of getting Quarian support, but make it harder. They choose their path, why not?

Modifié par Sky Shadowing, 27 avril 2010 - 09:26 .

[Barquiel]

We have 9 romancable characters. ME3 is a stand-alone game as well (probably new LIs)



Does anyone really think they'll write significant romance content for 9+ squadmates?

[I99I Dragoon]

Well, I'm hoping they can pull it off.



If you have "x" and "y" in the suicide mission, you won't be missing out, the dialog just won't be there, and obviously, you can't pick them to go on missions.



As opposed to character situations (Tali's relationship to the fleet), I believe it could be incorporated, be it Tali simply telling us how its going, or even a visit to the fleet (or not, if she's exiled), but not impossible to pull off.



However, LI I can't see being incorporated. Maybe your lover will make a remark in the beginning about, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Sky Shadowing]

Barquiel wrote...

We have 9 romancable characters. ME3 is a stand-alone game as well (probably new LIs)

Does anyone really think they'll write significant romance content for 9+ squadmates?

Bioware wrote dialouge for gay romances and then didn't do it.

Dialogue is probably one of the easier things they have to do. Write good dialogue, get it recorded, get it in game and lip-synched. Add appropriate animations and camera angles and BANG! dialogue.

With a team of fully professional animators, can't be too hard to get that synched.

[Azint]

Almost the entire game of Mass Effect 2 was about recruiting the characters, the best of the best. Each character was distinclty different from another, they all were unique and brought something new to the story. It would make the entire a game a waste of time if the characters were written out in the next game, that is why most of us believe that they will return in full form. Anyone who messes things up and gets characters killed deserves any punishment that the next game may have; take for instance Tali or Legion, losing either seems like it would have disasterous results for the faction they represent, and with good reason. Killing Wrex already leaves players with a bad reputation among the krogan, they should assert that in ME3. And to lose any significant character as such, and to have a convenient way to continue the game with no other consequences would greatly cheapen their death.

Every character deserves to come back, and they should.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

We have 9 romancable characters. ME3 is a stand-alone game as well (probably new LIs)

Does anyone really think they'll write significant romance content for 9+ squadmates?

Bioware wrote dialouge for gay romances and then didn't do it.

Dialogue is probably one of the easier things they have to do. Write good dialogue, get it recorded, get it in game and lip-synched. Add appropriate animations and camera angles and BANG! dialogue.

With a team of fully professional animators, can't be too hard to get that synched.

This is a space adventure turned a mindless shooter with Shepard vs. Reapers plot. Not some freaking Sims!!!

[I99I Dragoon]

We're not ignoring the plot, just wondering how we're gonna carry out the plot....

[RyuGuitarFreak]

First of all, great art OP. Where did you find it? I want it at a bigger resolution for a wallpaper

I want to see at least Garrus, Miranda, Jacob, and Legion back as squadmates. There is absolutely no reason why they should not be with Shepard for the final mission against the reapers unless (sigh) they remove Shepard of the Normandy again for a while.

[Zulu_DFA]

Azint wrote...

Almost the entire game of Mass Effect 2 was about recruiting the characters, the best of the best.

For the "suicide mission". That turned out to be a girl scout picnic, but they are all nonetheless expendable on it.

Azint wrote...
Every character deserves to come back, and they should.

And they will. As cameos.

[Azint]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

For the "suicide mission". That turned out to be a girl scout picnic, but they are all nonetheless expendable on it

It's fairly easy to get everyone out alive, the game constantly shoves hints in your face on how to do it. No excuses for getting so many killed, unless it was done intentionally.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And they will. As cameos.

All that character developement getting shafted is a pretty poor idea, especially if it's done to all of them and not just a few.

[Crimmsonwind]

I agree for the most part, though I would also like to see some ME1 connections explored. Maybe Kaidan could join up with me one more time, preferably with a little less angst. And Liara, if she's done playing Info Broker.



I would love to have my ME2 pals come with me too. There's plenty of room on the ship, and we all made it through. Damn right they're gonna stick by and help me kick Reaper ass.

[Sky Shadowing]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Azint wrote...

Almost the entire game of Mass Effect 2 was about recruiting the characters, the best of the best.

For the "suicide mission". That turned out to be a girl scout picnic, but they are all nonetheless expendable on it.

Azint wrote...
Every character deserves to come back, and they should.

And they will. As cameos.

They deserve to be more than that. If that's what they're relegated to, the core base of Bioware fans- these forums- will no be happy.

But I've stated evidence that Tali will return (possibly exiled and in love with Shepard). Give me one example of a reason about why, in that scenario, she wouldn't stick with Shepard?

Bioware gave indicators that, if they survived, characters will be returning. Hell, the final cutscene, with the survivors nodding to Shepard that "we're ready", indicates that they'll be coming back.

From a development perspective, it makes perfect sense. From a story and business perspective (seeing as how these VAs are already probably locked into contracts that indicate they will return for ME3. Thus, they'd have to actually hire NEW VAs for these situations), it does not make sense. And Bioware has indicated that they don't care what's easy. If they did, it would have been easier to not have the Virmire survivor not appear in ME2.

[tonnactus]

I99I
Besides, you were told at the beginning to assemble the BEST of the
BEST! How exactly do you step up from that with a whole new team?

Spectres are the best of the best.Not some random cerberus soldiers.Mordin was under the command of captain kirrahe.
So he could be one of the best scientists,but not the best in combat.When i think of the whole crew,only garrus,samara and thane fits somehow to the best of the best.Thats it.

[Zulu_DFA]

tonnactus wrote...

I99I
Besides, you were told at the beginning to assemble the BEST of the
BEST! How exactly do you step up from that with a whole new team?

Spectres are the best of the best.Not some random cerberus soldiers.Mordin was under the command of captain kirrahe.
So he could be one of the best scientists,but not the best in combat.When i think of the whole crew,only garrus,samara and thane fits somehow to the best of the best.Thats it.

BEST of the BEST of the BEST of the BEST of the BEST of the BEST of the BEST of the BEST... Blah... Blah... Blah...

We need characters that are plot devices at least as much as combat troopers. ME2 characters have depleted their plot potential. Even Liara and Ashley/Kaidan are quite irrelevant, but they need to come back as original LIs and to "make it up to them" (Garrus and Talli got their due, and Wrex's fans are satisfied with his petty Krogan kingdom cameo). But the rest of ME3 squad should be new, fresh, and Reaper related, not fanboy/girl related characters.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 avril 2010 - 11:37 .

[Looper128]

I support this

[Peppard]

Zulu_DFA wrote... 
Secondly, no matter what people think & say they want, in fact they don't want all squadmates to be back (click here for details), which leaves us with Liara and Virmire survivor as the only legit recruitable comebacks.

Just trying to understand your  logic, but why aren't the  Virmire Survivor  and Liara  out too?

 As I understand your reasoning, you believe that despite what fans say they want, that they would actually be happier with a game that puts more of its resources into a smaller squad of mostly new characters, story arcs, and combat, then on contriving ways to bring back a large cast  of old characters and side-stories  that require the game to present multiple branching starts for choices made in the previous game.

 Are you just making an exception for the ME1 characters because the amount of choices that need to be tracked would be smaller (Liara cannot die, Ash or Kaidan is alive) than for the ME2 cast?   Or are there other assumptions that you are making about the plot of ME3, or what the devs have said?  (I know there was some interview that these characters would be back, but did that say ash/kaidan and liara would be back as squad?). 

I can kind of see BW resetting the playing field for the third game--they did say something about "stand alone game". Personally, if they aren't bringing back any ME2 characters as squad, I would rather they didn't bring back ME1 ones either.  I may be in the minority on that, but I can explain why another time, out of time now.

[Nivenus]

He's making an exception for the ME1 characters because, among other things, he didn't like the ME2 characters (with a few exceptions).

[jlb524]

I just think they need to worry about fixing the main plot before they worry about all these characters.

End of ME1: The Reapers are coming I need to stop them! Don't know how yet but I will!
End of ME2: The Reapers are coming I need to stop them! Still don't know how but I will!

Did ME2 honestly accomplish anything plot-wise?

Modifié par jlb524, 28 avril 2010 - 01:17 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

The Reapers were sure coming full force at the end of ME 1, yeah with Shepard staring out into the abyss of space...

[jlb524]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

The Reapers were sure coming full force at the end of ME 1, yeah with Shepard staring out into the abyss of space...

Shepard says they're coming at the end of ME1.   Tells the council this.

You don't think Shepard actually sees the Reaper coming at the end of ME2, do you?

Face it, ME2 added nothing to the main plot and we are still left with a lot of gaping holes and questions.  

[Onyx Jaguar]

"Shepard" says it.



At the end of ME 2 "The Game" shows the Reapers coming.



Shepard is a character within the game, the storyline is told by the Game. Uses both 1st person and 3rd person. If they wanted to show the Reapers invading in the first one they should have, they didn't so their presence is up in the air.