107 réponses à ce sujet

[Nivenus]

jlb524 wrote...

I just think they need to worry about fixing the main plot before they worry about all these characters.

End of ME1: The Reapers are coming I need to stop them! Don't know how yet but I will!
End of ME2: The Reapers are coming I need to stop them! Still don't know how but I will!

Did ME2 honestly accomplish anything plot-wise?

Yes. You figured out what the Reapers specifically were up to (harvesting organics to create their mega-machines), you learned what happened to the Protheans, you assembled a team to fight the Reapers, and you acquired the resources you need to fight the Reapers. That's about as much as you can expect from a second chapter in a trilogy.

Trilogies always come in three individual parts (appropriately):

One. Introduce the story and characters. Main character is somebody people can relate to (in this case Shepard, because we can mold him/her). Discover threat. Vanquish threat in epic battle. Everyone's happy.

Two. Things go very, very wrong. Main character is isolated from their friends and besieged by outside forces. Meets new characters - some friends, some enemies. Battles the enemy once more and learns secret that may be key to defeating them. Ends sometimes on foreboding cliffhanger that leaves future uncertain.

Three. Main character must convince those who doubted them that they are their only hope. Enemy attacks en masse, much larger in numbers than ever before. Main characters assembles friends from parts one and two. Some die. Sacrifices are made. Eventually, there is an epic battle in which all hope at first seems to be lost before the hero pulls some daring move that wins the battle, often through some kind of power other than brute force (love, wisdom, fill in the blank here).

The Star Wars original trilogy follows this format. The Lord of the Rings follows this format. The Matrix (unsuccessfully) follows this format. The Star Wars prequels almost follow the format but then subvert it in chapter three. You get the idea.

So yes, ME2 fits the trilogy arc perfectly.

Modifié par Nivenus, 28 avril 2010 - 01:25 .

[jlb524]

@Onyx Jaguar

And? What does that add to the story? We knew the Reapers were coming soon at the end of ME1. We now know the Reapers are coming real soon at the end of ME2. I just don't think this is a grand revelation. Are we any closer to knowing how to stop the Reapers? No. Are we any closer to understanding them? No.

So, that's all ME2 added to the story...a sense of urgency? *yawn*

Modifié par jlb524, 28 avril 2010 - 01:28 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Oh come on, WE ARE closer to understanding them, that was the whole point of ME 2!

[Nivenus]

jlb524 wrote...

We now know the Reapers are coming real soon at the end of ME2. I just don't think this is a grand revelation

That's not the big revelation. The human-reaper's the big revelation.

jlb524 wrote...

Are we any closer to knowing how to stop the Reapers?

One word: IFF. Two more words: Collector base. Two and a half more words: Geth super-structure.

[Collider]

The datapad from the collector base will help. I imagine that'll go towards convincing the council. If the Collectors weren't stopped, the human reaper would have been born and bye bye Galaxy.

[Zulu_DFA]

Peppard wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote... 
Secondly, no matter what people think & say they want, in fact they don't want all squadmates to be back (click here for details), which leaves us with Liara and Virmire survivor as the only legit recruitable comebacks.

Just trying to understand your  logic, but why aren't the  Virmire Survivor  and Liara  out too?

Arghhh!!! there is no "my" logic!!!
Never mind.

Peppard wrote...
 As I understand your reasoning, you believe that despite what fans say they want, that they would actually be happier with a game that puts more of its resources into a smaller squad of mostly new characters, story arcs, and combat, then on contriving ways to bring back a large cast  of old characters and side-stories  that require the game to present multiple branching starts for choices made in the previous game.

Exactly.

Peppard wrote...
 Are you just making an exception for the ME1 characters because the amount of choices that need to be tracked would be smaller (Liara cannot die, Ash or Kaidan is alive) than for the ME2 cast?   Or are there other assumptions that you are making about the plot of ME3, or what the devs have said?  (I know there was some interview that these characters would be back, but did that say ash/kaidan and liara would be back as squad?).

Not only ME2 squadmates may be all alive/dead, but they also may be all loyal/unloyal (and some of them unloyal not due to skipping their loyalty mission, but due to failing it: Samara, Tali, Thane, Zaeed). And unloyal means they have a (just another) reason to leave.

Peppard wrote...
I can kind of see BW resetting the playing field for the third game--they did say something about "stand alone game". Personally, if they aren't bringing back any ME2 characters as squad, I would rather they didn't bring back ME1 ones either.  I may be in the minority on that, but I can explain why another time, out of time now.

Liara is obviously way more important a character than any other: she is alive in 100% saves, she was instrumental to winning ME1 (not just exposing Saren to the Council, which was avoidable from the in-game PoV), and to retrieving Sheprad's body, and to bringing down the Shadow Broker (apparently).

Ashley/Kaidan merged into one Januvian character after Virmire, is not so important, but as a matter of "fairness" to their fanboys/girls, they deserve to be in for big screentime (something Tali and Garrus got in ME2, and Wrex's fanbase is generally satisfied with his current Krogan king standing).

Personally I don't care about either of these characters and would gladly "trade" them all for just one new cool character. Of what we've had by now, my favorite are: Zaeed, Legion, Mordin (dead on the "uicide mission") and Kaidan (virmired). So you can take my opinion on Ashley, Kaidan and Liara as impartial.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 avril 2010 - 01:43 .

[jlb524]

Nivenus wrote...

Two. Things go very, very wrong. Main character is isolated from their friends and besieged by outside forces. Meets new characters - some friends, some enemies. Battles the enemy once more and learns secret that may be key to defeating them.

When did that happen in ME2?

My problem is, we know nothing new about the Reapers except they are coming really sooon, oooohh!.

We defeated their cronies who they were using to make a new Reaper.  We know the Reapers like to Reap and make Reapers.  We kind of knew that from ME1 (well, maybe that they don't make Reapers but the assumption could be made). 

There's no build up to finding out the inevitable Reaper weakness.  They're just going to drop in on us sometime in ME3.....that sucks.  Seriously, the answer is just going to fall in Shepard's lap....thousands of other civilizations have perished at the hands of the Reapers but the 'answer' to stop them just magically appears out of no where before the end of the ME3 game that will take place probably over a few months, just in the nick of time for Shepard to save the day. 

[Zulu_DFA]

jlb524 wrote...

I just think they need to worry about fixing the main plot before they worry about all these characters.

End of ME1: The Reapers are coming I need to stop them! Don't know how yet but I will!
End of ME2: The Reapers are coming I need to stop them! Still don't know how but I will!

Did ME2 honestly accomplish anything plot-wise?

This should become BioWare's unofficial motto for this and next years.

[jlb524]

We stopped the human Reaper....but what did we learn about the Reapers? The Reap and they're not very nice to organics. OK....already knew that.



I don't care about the datapad b/c no knowledge from that was presented to us, the audience. Shepard may no more about them from the datapad (I guess) but we the audience should have some hint as well. We're going into ME3 still knowing squat.

[Nivenus]

jlb524 wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Two. Things go very, very wrong. Main character is isolated from their friends and besieged by outside forces. Meets new characters - some friends, some enemies. Battles the enemy once more and learns secret that may be key to defeating them.

When did that happen in ME2?

My problem is, we know nothing new about the Reapers except they are coming really sooon, oooohh!.

We defeated their cronies who they were using to make a new Reaper.  We know the Reapers like to Reap and make Reapers.  We kind of knew that from ME1 (well, maybe that they don't make Reapers but the assumption could be made). 

There's no build up to finding out the inevitable Reaper weakness.  They're just going to drop in on us sometime in ME3.....that sucks.  Seriously, the answer is just going to fall in Shepard's lap....thousands of other civilizations have perished at the hands of the Reapers but the 'answer' to stop them just magically appears out of no where before the end of the ME3 game that will take place probably over a few months, just in the nick of time for Shepard to save the day. 

I hate to repeat myself (and Collider), but...

Nivenus wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

We now know the Reapers are coming real soon at the end of ME2. I just don't think this is a grand revelation

That's not the big revelation. The human-reaper's the big revelation.

jlb524 wrote...

Are we any closer to knowing how to stop the Reapers?

One word: IFF. Two more words: Collector base. Two and a half more words: Geth super-structure.

Collider wrote...

The datapad from the collector base will help. I imagine that'll go towards convincing the council. If the Collectors weren't stopped, the human reaper would have been born and bye bye Galaxy.

EDIT:

jlb524 wrote...

We stopped the human Reaper....but what did we learn about the Reapers? The Reap and they're not very nice to organics. OK....already knew that.

I don't care about the datapad b/c no knowledge from that was presented to us, the audience. Shepard may no more about them from the datapad (I guess) but we the audience should have some hint as well. We're going into ME3 still knowing squat.

We know now why the Reapers harvest organics. To build more Reapers. It does raise more questions (why do they need organics) but that's in the nature of the second chapter as well. At the end of ESB we knew Vader was Luke's father (big revelation) but we didn't know why Obi-Wan lied or why Vader fell.

Modifié par Nivenus, 28 avril 2010 - 01:39 .

[jlb524]

Again, we know nothing from the datapad. We know there is a datapad, but it might be blank or contain corrupted data. The story didn't present the data to us so we know nothing new about the Reapers or how to stop them.

[Zulu_DFA]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

"Shepard" says it.

At the end of ME 2 "The Game" shows the Reapers coming.

Onyx, with their Plan A, and Plan B foiled, they might be "coming" for another 50000 years. They need to find anotherway. Flying around Milkyway at simple FTL is a drowsy business. Or else, they would not have needed this elaborate schemes with Sovereign, Keepers, Collectors... "The Game" says they need to "find another way" [to access the mass relay network.]

[jlb524]

I just hope ME3 focuses more on story and less on squad mates. ME2 is nearly unbearable for me to play at this point due to the tedious loyalty missions and the lack of an interesting main plot. They cannot make another ME2 for ME3 as they need to tie up the main story and other smaller plots.



Less squad mates would be better, even if they're new people.

[shinobi602]

Hmm....this thread...

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

jlb524 wrote...

Again, we know nothing from the datapad. We know there is a datapad, but it might be blank or contain corrupted data. The story didn't present the data to us so we know nothing new about the Reapers or how to stop them.

kindof of the point with cliff hangers, your not suppose to know everything. Your suppose to given enough tid-bits to know some of the plot, then you find out later what all the mysteries are.


ME1 ME2 ME3

Link = Cliff hanger

Without the cliff-hangers, there would be no point to play ME3. Do we know where Frodo/gollum and sam are going? Do we know what happens to gondor at the end of two towers? no, we get an battle at helm's deep, and another minorly troublesome person gets dealt with.

Then in ME3, mordor invades and everything starts to wrap up and you go  "OMG, so that's what that meant, and that's why this is that, and that is this." etc etc. Suppose to be details missing. You don't write the second chapter to answer everything. I don't know any author whoever does that, then there is no point in reading further.

Either way, If I was bioware, I would just be like  intro, introduce normandy SR-2 again, suriving dirty dozen aboard all ready to go. Any new players can go around talking to the characters and there can be some re-caps for what people missed if they hadn't played. Easy peasy. No Recuitment missions for suriving dirty dozen. That is the easast way to have everyone, all you have to do is another set of diologue of whatever instead of recuitment missions. Everyone is happy.

Liara and Kaiden/Ashley are coming back, but then that is just adding two more spots on the normandy for people to chill at, not very hard. Could be in the main hold.

Side quests play out according to the decisions you made in ME2, or the generic "canon" verison.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 28 avril 2010 - 01:57 .

[jlb524]

The datapad is ridiculous anyways. How do we even know we have the software that can read and understand the thing? How do we even know our trusty, standard issue datapads can hold it?



If I recall, we still don't have the technology to read Prothean data disks. Now, magically, we can read and interpret stuff from Reapers?



OMG!

[jlb524]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...



kindof of the point with cliff hangers, your not suppose to know everything. Your suppose to given enough tid-bits to know some of the plot, then you find out later what all the mysteries are.





ME1 ME2 ME3



Link = Cliff hanger

Yes, Cliff hangers...there are good ones and then there are bad ones. I'm saying ME2's was bad b/c it was just more 'OMG! The Reapers are coming!'....this was basically the end of ME1.



A better cliff hanger would have been...OMG! The Council is indoctrinated and are planning on sending Turian/Asari fleets to invade Earth!

[Zulu_DFA]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Liara and Kaiden/Ashley are coming back, but then that is just adding two more spots on the normandy for people to chill at, not very hard. Could be in the main hold.

Main hold, my arse. Way to go rebuliding reletionship with an LI...

[Nivenus]

I thought the ending of ME2 was stronger than ME1's. It's clear we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Collider]

I agree with Nivenus. ME2's ending gives you the sense that you're going to go take on the Reapers right then and now. ME1's ending was like "We'll confront them eventually."

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

I agree with Nivenus. ME2's ending gives you the sense that you're going to go take on the Reapers right then and now. ME1's ending was like "We'll confront them eventually."

Careful, Collider, for those who haven't seen our geth arguments we're going to start looking like the same person .

[Peppard]

Zulu  wrote...
Personally I don't care about either of these characters and would gladly "trade" them all for just one new cool character. Of what we've had by now, my favorite are: Zaeed, Legion, Mordin (dead on the "uicide mission") and Kaidan (virmired). So you can take my opinion on Ashley, Kaidan and Liara as impartial.

 
I might agree about the trade thing,  though you and I might not agree on what a "cool new character" is.   I'd hate to lose the variety and get stuck with a small team filled with characters I can't stand, even if I get more dialog as a result.  
I really enjoyed having the range of personalities and combat skills  that we had in ME2.  In ME1, I had  1  masculine LI option, in ME2, I had 3.  Instead of only 1 character for each class, we more or less had 2. That to me was an upgrade, even if that meant less dialog and "major plot connection" for those characters. Not everyone cares about the same stuff though, so I realize some people liked the ME1 style more than the ME2.  

Yet, despite that,  I'd prefer to see the stories of the characters who became important to my Shepard play out in more than just a random email or a brief, blink and you miss it cameo.  It may not be important to the story of saving the galaxy-at-large, but as Mordin said about why he called his Nephew, sometimes you have to put things on a small scale to care about the consequences of things happening on a large scale.   If that is not an option, then I'd rather just have more new characters that hopefully click for me, than the ME1 crew, which didn't, and leave the "resolution" stuff to my imagination, and just have fun with more levels, enemies and pew pew to do.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

I whole heartedly support this. 12 ways to kick the definition of "suicide" and "impossible" right in the nuts.

[Darthnemesis2]

everytime I see this thread on the main page I think of the song by Five Finger Death Punch called No One Gets Left Behind...

And on topic. I support everyone coming back (except maybe Zaeed because I didn't really like him too much).

[Nozybidaj]

jlb524 wrote...

I just think they need to worry about fixing the main plot before they worry about all these characters.

End of ME1: The Reapers are coming I need to stop them! Don't know how yet but I will!
End of ME2: The Reapers are coming I need to stop them! Still don't know how but I will!

Did ME2 honestly accomplish anything plot-wise?

Well if you consider invalidating much of what we did in ME1 I suppose you could call that an accomplishment.  Other than that?  Uhm......not really.