30 réponses à ce sujet

[jsd313]

Myself and most all modders in the community deal with compatibility issues with other mods. I believe the majority of the conflicts are 2da related. We know that 2da files in the main override are going to override all mods using the same file name and or ID's inside them. In most instances we can avoid that problem with a custom 2da using a new name and ID's. This however gets to be very difficult and time consuming when working on say ABI_BASE. If you are adding a few new spells with new ID's its no problem, but if you also need to edit attributes for core listings you now have conflicts. You would have to make a new files with new ID's for all those abilities then rescript everything associated with them for it to work as normal. You would be 100% compatible but that also cost tons of time. I am hoping there is or can be a way to have playable modules disable and or ignore all main override files while that particular module is loaded up.

I am currently considering scrapping my mod and being done with this endevour.  I feel people are wasting their time downloading and playing my mod when it doesn't work as intented due to mods they have installed. Some have posted to let me know it sucks and I get them fixed but I know lots are not posting and just writing the mod off as bad.

Anyone have any suggestions, ideas, anything?

[Craig Graff]

Most 2das should not be going into the main override (very, very few if any). Most 2das should in fact be going into the module override of the addin (as opposed to the addin/core/override) since that way they are only loaded while the module is loaded. 2das that are meant to be universally applied should be int the addin/core/override, where conflicts can at least be sorted by module priority.

[jsd313]

Yeah thats how I package mine, everything works and I don't conflict with anyone. Problem is there are several mods out there that are packaged with the 2das in the main override. I've messaged authors to discuss their issues but most don't respond. We need to some how get everyone on the same page so they know how to avoid these issues.

[Magic]

jsd313 wrote...

I am currently considering scrapping my mod and being done with this endevour.

I know how you feel, and I had the same thought several times before. This is despite the fact that I like the DA:O toolset more than NWN 1 and 2. All have their strengths.

The way I see it: The core system is super. It's pretty good for using. Expanding is problematic, and it's not suited for modifying. None of that is really an issue if one doesn't care to share, of course. If you really just want to make a playable module for the community, I suggest to do the following: Tell your story, make characters and encounters just by using the system, no over-customization. People will probably like it even more. I think there's one wrong assumption often coming with player-made content: Changing things doesn't automatically make them better. For DA:O there's the additional challenge to make them compatible. Is that time well spent?

DA:O's system isn't perfect but it is great for story-telling. For my own project I've already cancelled more customization ideas than I completed. It's for the best though as it will still need a lot time to finish. For yours, good luck!

[Challseus]

@ jsd313

Are you getting complaints, even with having that disclaimer on your download page?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be nice if we could somehow configure our mods to not be overriden by any other mods, or even better, specify some unique identifier for ones we would allow to do so. Because let's be realistic, no matter how much people are educated on the proper ways to do things, unless enforced, there will always be those that just don't give a damn.

For instance, the last mod I worked on (NWN2), every time someone was complaining about some issue and such, the first thing we always asked was, "What's in your override directory". 9 times out of 10, that solved the issue. I don't look forward to doing that again...

[TimelordDC]

I think there are 2 problems here -

1. Add-Ins that extend the single-player: This is where most of the problems come in since there are so many mods out there that override some small detail, recompile everything and dump them into packages/core/override. I don't think anything other than cooperation amongst these authors can overcome compatibility issues.

2. Modules that are stand-alone: I think the first part of the problem is for Bioware to get the modules folder working. Once we get that working, the next step would be to get a separate .ini file for each module that can be used by the module-maker to specify which add-ins are compatible and which the player can also use to add/remove add-ins they want for that particular module. By default, all add-ins except Bioware-released ones will be turned off and after that, only those specified in the .ini file will be turned on when the module is selected and loaded.

EDIT: It would also be good for each module/add-in to have a detailed README that lists which core files are being changed. This would be far easier to check compatibility against.
Maybe a few interested players/builders can even set up an independent Review project that checks a few standard things for each released module (upon author's or player's request) and give it the stamp of approval. It will take off slowly but once it publishes enough reviews, it can become the community standard.

Modifié par TimelordDC, 30 avril 2010 - 05:59 .

[jsd313]

Challseus wrote...

@ jsd313

Are you getting complaints, even with having that disclaimer on your download page?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be nice if we could somehow configure our mods to not be overriden by any other mods, or even better, specify some unique identifier for ones we would allow to do so. Because let's be realistic, no matter how much people are educated on the proper ways to do things, unless enforced, there will always be those that just don't give a damn.

For instance, the last mod I worked on (NWN2), every time someone was complaining about some issue and such, the first thing we always asked was, "What's in your override directory". 9 times out of 10, that solved the issue. I don't look forward to doing that again...

Yeah I have it posted all over and people still comment with problems. All the issues are resolved by removing files from the main override. I have done a really good job staying on top of user problems but I also feel I have spent way more time than anyone offering a free service would lol. Can we charge for our mods yet?

[jsd313]

TimelordDC wrote...

EDIT: It would also be good for each module/add-in to have a detailed README that lists which core files are being changed. This would be far easier to check compatibility against.
Maybe a few interested players/builders can even set up an independent Review project that checks a few standard things for each released module (upon author's or player's request) and give it the stamp of approval. It will take off slowly but once it publishes enough reviews, it can become the community standard.

This is a great idea, but there has to be a better way. I think part of the problem is most of us have 0 exp with modding. And not all modders think outside the box when making there mod. I had to take into consideration so many variables. I then researched things and have asked questions where I was unsure. In the end we want to make mods that work without problems for the user. We are stuck in a spot atm and we all need to find a common solution or watch the havoc that unfolds as more mods are made..

[ladydesire]

TimelordDC wrote...

IEDIT: It would also be good for each module/add-in to have a detailed README that lists which core files are being changed. This would be far easier to check compatibility against.

  How many end users bother to read the readme, or the mod description, for more than installation instructions? I don't know how many times I have been reading comments and someone complains about an issue that is clearly addressed in one of those two places.

[TimelordDC]

That was not for the users but for the authors. If someone reports an issue, it would be much easier to get the list of mods they have and check the files changed in those against the files changed in their mod(s).



The onus can never be on the users - it has to be the modding community that has to arrive at a consensus to ensure compatibility in the absence of any enforceable technique.

[jsd313]

ladydesire wrote...

TimelordDC wrote...

IEDIT: It would also be good for each module/add-in to have a detailed README that lists which core files are being changed. This would be far easier to check compatibility against.

  How many end users bother to read the readme, or the mod description, for more than installation instructions? I don't know how many times I have been reading comments and someone complains about an issue that is clearly addressed in one of those two places.

Exactly, some people do not read everything or even understand what they did read.

[ladydesire]

TimelordDC wrote...

That was not for the users but for the authors. If someone reports an issue, it would be much easier to get the list of mods they have and check the files changed in those against the files changed in their mod(s).

The onus can never be on the users - it has to be the modding community that has to arrive at a consensus to ensure compatibility in the absence of any enforceable technique.

I know, but until we do, the end user needs to work with us and accept what various mod authors say in their file descriptions and readme's. Also, from past experience (I know others from the NWN/NWN2 modding community will agree with me) there are those mod authors that delight in being the cause of incompatibilities.

[Proleric]

Useful discussion. It would be good to capture some of the new points on the relevant wiki page.

[TimelordDC]

ladydesire wrote...

TimelordDC wrote...

That was not for the users but for the authors. If someone reports an issue, it would be much easier to get the list of mods they have and check the files changed in those against the files changed in their mod(s).

The onus can never be on the users - it has to be the modding community that has to arrive at a consensus to ensure compatibility in the absence of any enforceable technique.

I know, but until we do, the end user needs to work with us and accept what various mod authors say in their file descriptions and readme's. Also, from past experience (I know others from the NWN/NWN2 modding community will agree with me) there are those mod authors that delight in being the cause of incompatibilities.

What I see here is an opportunity to educate the end user what mods aren't compatible with what. The readme with the list of changed files can help a long way towards that - especially for add-ins that extend the single-player module (for stand-alone modules, it is easy to just configure an exe that will disable all Add-Ins and launch the game)
Perhaps, the review project can even have a wiki page that lists what modules are NOT compatible with which mods.

[jsd313]

Any more info on this executable that can load my standalone and skip other addins?

[TimelordDC]

You have to build it.

Modifié par TimelordDC, 02 mai 2010 - 03:45 .

[Proleric]

Could someone write a common utility that players can download and run under their own control?

In addition to disabling all unofficial add-ins, it would need to archive any contents of the packages override folders.

It might even allow the player to define a "must have" list, so that the small subset of mods that they regard as essential are not disabled every time.

If players felt that they were in charge, and that they were using a standard facility which most authors recommend, they'd be less likely to push back.

We might even consider using a standard disclaimer, so that players get used to the idea. 

What do people think?

[TimelordDC]

I have been thinking about exactly the same thing, Proleric. Initially, I thought it will be a good idea to integrate it into DAModder since it already has some of the functionality built-in but I haven't heard back from the author.

Here's what I had in mind -
Each module will have an ini file with the following headers:

• Exclusive Mode - with just one entry: ForceExclusiveMode which can be set to ON (to disable all other add-ins)/OFF(to allow other add-ins)
• PackagesCoreOverride - a list of files for that add-in that go into packages/core/override
• Incompatible List - with a list of mods that the module author knows are incompatible [UIDs or Module Names?]

The program will do the following:

• For each add-in present, load the corresponding ini file and build the compatibility list.
• The user will be presented with a GUI which will be similar to the UI available in Dragon Age with the exception that each add-in selected will show the list of incompatible mods and the priority for loading that add-in.
• Selecting a particular add-in will disable the incompatible add-ins by default.
• If there is a conflict between two manually selected add-ins, the user will get a message telling him that the add-ins are incompatible and he can select only one or he can adjust the priority so that one add-in will be loaded first.
• Once the user has selected the required add-ins, the AddIns.xml will be updated to disable those add-ins not selected and the program will launch the Dragon Age exe.
• This program wouldn't touch the Bioware add-ins
• ForceExclusiveMode, when set to ON, would also disable any files in the packages/core/override except that add-in's

[Proleric]

I hope someone can build that utility!

Meanwhile, I've drafted a disclaimer which encourages players to do the same thing manually.

As always, please feel free to improve the wording on the wiki.

Regarding the utility spec, there's much to admire there. On points of detail:

Would it be better to make this a standalone utility, so that the player can run it any time their installation fouls up?

Do we really want to encourage authors to put stuff in packages > override? IIRC, Bioware devs have hinted that this is rarely necessary or helpful.

From recent experience, auto-excluding certain conflicting mods might be emotive. Maybe it's better to let the player decide?

If we do go down that road, my NWN experience is that one mod caused 90% of the spurious bug reports, so a very short list might achieve the 80/20.

[TimelordDC]

I believe some changes are required to be in packages/core/override since the Bioware devs have mentioned that a few core resources get loaded in during game start up. Of course, that is not recommended but the option should be there to handle it.

This would be a stand-alone utility and if the player is not making any changes to their mod list, they wouldn't have to run this again since this utility will interact with AddIns.xml which is used by the game engine too.



Also, there won't be any auto-exclusions. It would be driven by the module author and the player will get a list of mods that will be excluded when selecting a particular mod.

When I wrote the spec, the GUI in my mind had three panes -

- Left Pane: List of all add-ins currently installed [Bioware ones are greyed out]

- Right Top Pane: (In)Compatible mod list that is displayed according to the add-in selected in the left pane

- Right Bottom Pane: A list of the enabled add-ins with their priority displayed in case the user wants to mess around with them. This one won't be really needed but it is a quick way to supersede multiple mods.



If no one volunteers, I can look into building this. It basically requires some XML data-binding logic and a UI.

[Proleric]

Ah, that makes your intention clearer, thanks.

If you decide to go ahead, I hope you'll include an option for the player to clear everything out (subject to exceptions). I understand your interest in an author-driven list of incompatible mods, but I'm confident that some authors won't want to do it that way, because

• It could lead to unnecessary friction between authors.
• While it's easy to identify a few key incompatible mods by exception, a comprehensive list would be a huge task.

Regarding the packages override, only two legitimate uses have been identified so far in the wiki, namely

• Tintmaps
• Resources which are required for the standalone Character Creator program

Given that these are very specialised requirements, and that abuse of the packages override is a major potential cause of incompatibility, I'd suggest that support for the packages overide should be a non-default option, with an appropriate warning.

[ladydesire]

Proleric1 wrote...

Given that these are very specialised requirements, and that
abuse of the packages override is a major potential cause of
incompatibility, I'd suggest that support for the packages
overide should be a non-default option, with an appropriate
warning.

Agreed; since we can convert game resources from Core or Single Player to our custom module to override, or duplicate them and make changes, there is no need to put anything script related there.

[jsd313]

How do these lists get updated? It would be hard for all of us to keep up with the newest mods, not to mention the 1000's out there now. I think it goes back to educating the authors, maybe they need to pass a test after reading a manual or the toolset says YOU FAIL and then closes

[Mengtzu]

I'd support a way to blanket exclude other mods. Beyond compatibility issues, I worry a lot about balance. If you carefully tune an encounter around the core system, an otherwise excellent mod that alters combat could easily make that encounter impossible or trivial.



I wouldn't want anyone to play one of my modules with nerfed healing poultices :<

[jsd313]

Mengtzu wrote...

If you carefully tune an encounter around the core system, an otherwise excellent mod that alters combat could easily make that encounter impossible or trivial.

<

And when your whole mod is tuned differently you get tons of issue as I have. I am bias of course but I really do believe my mod is fantastic, just sucks most don't get to play it the way I designed it.
 
If any of you are ever bored and looking for a repetitive read, go check out my mods comments lol.