361 réponses à ce sujet

[SuperMedbh]

Lucky Thirteen said....

I think it's great she's not some lumpy, sex object like so many
female heroes are. This is the one of the few things I complain about
that was better in ME1. ME1 had a lot more realistic bodies on women
with realistic outfits.
In
comparison to a lot of female heroines out there, femShep is truly
unique in personality and strength and appearance... <snip>... I believe that
ME2 Shepard has much more personality then ME1 though. I don't doubt
BioWare being lazy when it comes to her, but I believe they have
inadvertently created an amazing heroine who's just going to disappear
under the radar once this part of the series is over.

Completely agree with all of the above.  And before I forget, love the Anne Bonny avatar!  I bet she didn't swivel all over the place when she walked (for those who don't know, RL female pirate, served as first mate under Calico Jack and later, another woman pirate, Mary Read).

I don't know if it was deliberate or not, but the first time I played ME I thought "WOW!  I really believe that this woman is in charge."  When Shep is "on deck", she is Captain first--  a "bloody icon".  She has her girly moments, but that's when she's off stage.  I liked the scene in Kaiden's romance after the Normandy is grounded when she says something to the effect of "Sometimes, I just need a shoulder".  For a woman like her, that's an incredibly intimate thing to say.  But then Joker interupts, and it was time to put the public persona on again.  It felt very real--  far more so than if we'd had some aggressively feminine character (think Miranda) in that role. 

Like Thirteen, I fear that FemShep won't have broad market appeal, and she'll get sexed up for ME3.  I'd hate to see that.  I'd like to think we've reached a stage where we can have portrayals of strong women who aren't celibate secret (or not so secret) man-haters.

[hitorihanzo]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

hitorihanzo wrote...
So, a sexually aggressive woman isn't normal?  That's a bit of a double standard isn't it?  I thought the whole "equality" between genders meant that whatever was normal for men to do (and if you think that men aren't sexually aggressive towards women, then you need to put the games down and go to a nightclub), was supposed to be considered normal for a woman to do. 

Also, you can choose not to be sexually aggressive towards him.  It's called "Not choosing him as an LI."  You have lots of dialogue to choose from that doesn't have anything to do with sex. 

Well that's only how masculinists sees feminists. Not all feminists want exactly what men have, quite the opposite. They just want women to do exactly what they do and still be respected for who they are.

If women have to behave like men to earn men's respect, that's not feminism at all. Because your underlying assumption is still that masculine qualities are superior.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant.  Or perhaps I didn't articulate it well enough.  Who was speaking about feminism?  I wasn't.  I was talking about your everyday, common, female.    They are confident, intelligent, hard-working women.  They want to be able to do whatever they want to do and be respected for it.  If they feel like being sexually aggressive, they don't want someone calling them a ****, especially if a man did the same thing, they would be described as "just being one of the boys."

I, for one, don't want a woman that acts like a man.  I want a woman that is an aggressive, sexually confident woman.  There's a big difference.

Modifié par hitorihanzo, 28 avril 2010 - 05:34 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

I return here and this topic is still being discussed? What is wrong with you people? I am going to have to take out my wage on that bar wench now.



Again, I like Mass Effect with scantily clad sexy women and scantily clad sexy alien women. I like being a complete insensitive jerk as Shepard. I like being able to put an end to your snide insinuations!



Besides, women don't use computers anyway. Confirmed fact.

[Commissar Gash]

[NKKKK]

ReconTeam wrote...



Besides, women don't use computers anyway. Confirmed fact.

QFT

[hitorihanzo]

ReconTeam wrote...

I return here and this topic is still being discussed? What is wrong with you people? I am going to have to take out my wage on that bar wench now.

Again, I like Mass Effect with scantily clad sexy women and scantily clad sexy alien women. I like being a complete insensitive jerk as Shepard. I like being able to put an end to your snide insinuations!

Besides, women don't use computers anyway. Confirmed fact.

Well, some people take themselves, and the world around them, waaaaaay too seriously.

[mopotter]

Collider wrote...

Hattie wrote...

Collider wrote...

FemShep isn't defined by her gender. She's a soldier first and foremost.

Who moves like a man.

Male Shepard walks like a ****** too.

I am female and I don't have a problem with the way Fem Shep looks.  I'd rather her look like she does than a Barbie doll.  But then, my mother always said I walked like I was plowing a field, so Fem Shep walks perfectly normal in my world.  

I did notice when she put the dress on, she should have found one with sleeves.  
Really though I agree that BioWare actually treats the female players better than most companies.  That may not be a gold recommendation, but I'll give them a sliver.  Most games you don't even get a choice.   

[MrNose]

LiquidGrape wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

"5. In response to the title of this thread, I have found that the exact opposite is true. The jerks are the ones that get more sex. The nice guys get long term relationships, much later in life."

My point exactly.

I direct you to HBI.

Read up.

Holy crap, someone wrote something that makes huge generalizations.  It's on the internet so it must be right! 
Actually, since the post said the "nice guys get long term relationships" thing that article doesn't really apply.  The idea of the poster is that both have relationships, but the jerks generally have a lot more random hook-ups along the way, and the nice-guy is more conducive to long term stuff.

[MrNose]

hitorihanzo wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

I return here and this topic is still being discussed? What is wrong with you people? I am going to have to take out my wage on that bar wench now.

Again, I like Mass Effect with scantily clad sexy women and scantily clad sexy alien women. I like being a complete insensitive jerk as Shepard. I like being able to put an end to your snide insinuations!

Besides, women don't use computers anyway. Confirmed fact.

Well, some people take themselves, and the world around them, waaaaaay too seriously.

QFT

[NKKKK]

ME doesn't have realistic portrayals of women. They're out of the kitchen? Really?

[Valmy]

mopotter wrote...
I did notice when she put the dress on, she should have found one with sleeves.  
Really though I agree that BioWare actually treats the female players better than most companies.  That may not be a gold recommendation, but I'll give them a sliver.  Most games you don't even get a choice.   

Well Mass Effect is by far their most testosterone fueled franchise.  Besides you have to expect a company whose games revolve entirely around killing things to lean a bit on the masculine side.

Why with the sleeves btw?  Femshep works out, she has nice arms.

[Valmy]

MrNose wrote...
Holy crap, someone wrote something that makes huge generalizations.  It's on the internet so it must be right! 
Actually, since the post said the "nice guys get long term relationships" thing that article doesn't really apply.  The idea of the poster is that both have relationships, but the jerks generally have a lot more random hook-ups along the way, and the nice-guy is more conducive to long term stuff.

Relax MrNose sites like that are written by frustrated guys who cannot get laid...er...love.

By they way if you resent women they can sniff it no matter how nice you act on the outside.  They may like badboys but resentment is sorta pathetic and a turnoff.

[Speakeasy13]

Valmy wrote...

Again well said.  One of the things I like about Bioware's games is that the female characters are usually distinctly feminine in every respect but still great characters who are competent and worthy of respect.

In fact I find the OPs complaints pretty unfair really.  I mean yes the outfits and footwear were pretty over the top but that certainly in no way meant that ME2 was somehow disrespectful to women.

Thank you twice. You prompted me to re-read the OP and I think I see where the unfairness lies. This is a game. If I had the choice, I wouldn't mind walking into battle with style. Men feel that way too, not as much as women in general, but we do. Hence the tuxedo for Shep in Kasumi's mission. Is that disrespectful for men too?

Girls like to dress up. There's nothing wrong with that. What the OP is implying is that if it weren't for pleasing men no women would ever put on makeup, wear highheels and mini-skirts. Why would you give up on what makes you a woman? The highheels, the BDSM thongs and the low-cut armors are part of what they are, and ONE AMONG MANY reasons why we love these women.

The only reasons why I can see women would be offended by other beautiful women are: 1) They are one of the femini-n@zis and 2) They don't think themselves attractive. In the former case, I must tell you that there's nothing feminist in denying feminity; and in the latter, let me remind you that anyone can be attractive. There're lazy people and there are people with no confidence, but there's not a single person born to be inattractive.

And what do the creepy fanboys think? Who cares.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 28 avril 2010 - 05:55 .

[Chaos-fusion]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

The only reasons why I can see women would be offended by other beautiful women are: 1) They are one of the femini-****s and 2) They don't think themselves attractive. In the former case, I must tell you that [color=red]there's nothing feminist in denying feminity; and in the latter, let me remind you that anyone can be attractive.

I don't know about that. A quick glance in the mirror here next to me tells me your wrong.

But seriously, I do agree with everything you've said so far.

[Speakeasy13]

hitorihanzo wrote...

Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant.  Or perhaps I didn't articulate it well enough.  Who was speaking about feminism?  I wasn't.  I was talking about your everyday, common, female.    They are confident, intelligent, hard-working women.  They want to be able to do whatever they want to do and be respected for it.  If they feel like being sexually aggressive, they don't want someone calling them a ****, especially if a man did the same thing, they would be described as "just being one of the boys."

I, for one, don't want a woman that acts like a man.  I want a woman that is an aggressive, sexually confident woman.  There's a big difference.

That's EXACTLY what I meant. These things shouldn't have anything to do with gender AT ALL. If you choose to be promiscous it should be a personal choice, not because you're a man or a woman. I'm sure you find that double standard unamusing, no?

I guess my point was you should be respected equally no matter what you do, man or woman. Women behaving like women, men behaving like men, men behaving like women, women behaving like men... why do we even bother labeling them? Aren't we all just people?

[jselene]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Girls like to dress up. There's nothing wrong with that. What the OP is implying is that if it weren't for pleasing men no women would ever put on makeup, wear highheels and mini-skirts. Why would you give up on what makes you a woman? The highheels, the BDSM thongs and the low-cut armors are part of what they are, and ONE AMONG MANY reasons why we love these women.

The only reasons why I can see women would be offended by other beautiful women are: 1) They are one of the femini-****s and 2) They don't think themselves attractive. In the former case, I must tell you that [color=red]there's nothing feminist in denying feminity; and in the latter, let me remind you that anyone can be attractive. There're lazy people and there are people with no confidence, but there's not a single person born to be inattractive.

And what do the creepy fanboys think? Who cares.

Hmm, just dropping in to say that I agree with most of what you say, but must disagree with this.  There's a difference between the way women dress when they're trying to impress other women, the way they dress when they're trying to impress men, and the way men want them to dress when trying to impress men.  BDSM thongs in non-BDSM situations, high heels in combat, and armor that exposes your vitals... are not one of the former two.  It's the difference between "looking attractive" and "looking subject to the male gaze."

I mean, what if all the male party members were designed with horny hetgirls in mind?  I'd like it, but I doubt the menfolks would.

[Valmy]

jselene wrote...
I mean, what if all the male party members were designed with horny hetgirls in mind?  I'd like it, but I doubt the menfolks would.

Well that depends...would it make us look awesome? 

Nobody disagrees that high heels and such in combat is not a bit silly.  I am one of the worlds number 1 fans of women in high heels and I would love it if they kept their non-combat outfits but come on now.  The women should have armor and real shoes for fighting and doing missions.

[NKKKK]

Valmy wrote...

jselene wrote...
I mean, what if all the male party members were designed with horny hetgirls in mind?  I'd like it, but I doubt the menfolks would.

Well that depends...would it make us look awesome? 

Go to fanfiction.net, that'll answer your question.

[hitorihanzo]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

hitorihanzo wrote...

Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant.  Or perhaps I didn't articulate it well enough.  Who was speaking about feminism?  I wasn't.  I was talking about your everyday, common, female.    They are confident, intelligent, hard-working women.  They want to be able to do whatever they want to do and be respected for it.  If they feel like being sexually aggressive, they don't want someone calling them a ****, especially if a man did the same thing, they would be described as "just being one of the boys."

I, for one, don't want a woman that acts like a man.  I want a woman that is an aggressive, sexually confident woman.  There's a big difference.

That's EXACTLY what I meant. These things shouldn't have anything to do with gender AT ALL. If you choose to be promiscous it should be a personal choice, not because you're a man or a woman. I'm sure you find that double standard unamusing, no?

I guess my point was you should be respected equally no matter what you do, man or woman. Women behaving like women, men behaving like men, men behaving like women, women behaving like men... why do we even bother labeling them? Aren't we all just people?

We are just people.  However, by that very definition, people, we label things to make them easier to identify.  Should we do it all the time?  No.  But we do it.  It's human nature.  For example, a man that acts in an effeminate (having problems spelling today), manner will turn off many women.  Why?  If you were to ask them, they would say because he doesn't act like a real man.  It happens.  Culturally speaking, the women that I have always dated have like really strong men.  If you are over-sensitive, they say that you're acting like a female.  It's just what they're used to.  Nothing wrong with it.

Besides, there are ways of thinking, and acting that women have, that men do not physiologically, due to hormones / brain chemistry.  That's scientifically proven.  So, when someone says that "such and such is thinking like a woman", that's not necessarily a bad thing.  

[Speakeasy13]

jselene wrote...
There's a difference between the way women dress when they're trying to impress other women, the way they dress when they're trying to impress men, and the way men want them to dress when trying to impress men.

I mean, what if all the male party members were designed with horny hetgirls in mind?  I'd like it, but I doubt the menfolks would.

I agree. But my original idea is that you shouldn't and needn't dress to impress anyone but yourself. That's what motivates me to put a gigantic flaming rose pin on my suit pocket, and wear that to a business presentation. Inappropriate? Maybe. But that's exactly the point: it's who I am, deal with it.

Btw I'd say Zaeed's scar goes well with pink fluffy handcuffs... try getting THAT picture out of your head all you hetgirls.

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 28 avril 2010 - 06:52 .

[hitorihanzo]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

jselene wrote...
There's a difference between the way women dress when they're trying to impress other women, the way they dress when they're trying to impress men, and the way men want them to dress when trying to impress men.

I mean, what if all the male party members were designed with horny hetgirls in mind?  I'd like it, but I doubt the menfolks would.

I agree. But my original idea is that you shouldn't and needn't dress to impress anyone but yourself. That's what motivates me to put a gigantic flaming rose pin on my suit pocket, and wear that to a business presentation. Inappropriate? Maybe. But that's exactly the point: it's who I am, deal with it.

Btw I'd Zaeed's scar goes well with pink fluffy handcuffs... try getting THAT picture out of your head all you hetgirls.

In regards to the gigantic flaming rose pin- if you are making a business proposition to a perspective client, isn't it in your best interest to make sure that nothing you do insults them?  You are who you are, and that's fine.  But there's nothing wrong with toning things down, at least until you get their business.  That's not fake, it's smart in my opinion.

[Speakeasy13]

hitorihanzo wrote...
We are just people.  However, by that very definition, people, we label things to make them easier to identify.  Should we do it all the time?  No.  But we do it.  It's human nature.  For example, a man that acts in an effeminate (having problems spelling today), manner will turn off many women.  Why?  If you were to ask them, they would say because he doesn't act like a real man.  It happens.  Culturally speaking, the women that I have always dated have like really strong men.  If you are over-sensitive, they say that you're acting like a female.  It's just what they're used to.  Nothing wrong with it.

Besides, there are ways of thinking, and acting that women have, that men do not physiologically, due to hormones / brain chemistry.  That's scientifically proven.  So, when someone says that "such and such is thinking like a woman", that's not necessarily a bad thing.  

You aren't incorrect there. But I don't think you should always worry about what other people think of you. If there's one thing that article about "nice guys" got it right, it was that insecurity just isn't sexay. If you would kindly refer to my previous post you'd see what I mean. You know, the one with Zaeed and pink in the same sentense...

You don't find manly women attractive and that's perfectly fine. I don't find girly men attractive either. But I have tons of friends who behave like that. And I'm not going to tell them to change. I'm the one who must learn to appreciate these qualities that they possesse, albeit not in an erotic way.

hitorihanzo wrote...
In regards to the gigantic flaming rose
pin- if you are making a business proposition to a perspective client,
isn't it in your best interest to make sure that nothing you do insults
them?  You are who you are, and that's fine.  But there's nothing wrong
with toning things down, at least until you get their business.  That's
not fake, it's smart in my opinion.

You're assuming people will always get offended - Shouldn't what you say and what you do carry more weight than how you look like? Besides, it's not like I deliberately do that to insult these people. I'd like to think that beneath the pin lies a competent training consultant, the same way I think that beneath the BDSM thongs lies a powerful, hardcore **** that is Jack.

AND for the record I do NOT wear a gigantic flaming rose pin on my suit every day... I just take the business dress code quite liberally and I used it as an example...

Modifié par Speakeasy13, 28 avril 2010 - 06:48 .

[CmdrFenix83]

To the OP:  While I do agree that the way the relationships were handled in the first game was better, I just have to comment on the thread title...

Respect women and you'll get more sex

Most guys know that this is actually the opposite of reality.  The 'key to the mint', so to speak, is to treat women like crap.  Women with low self-esteem are more likely to jump into bed quickly. 

As myself and most other 'nice guys' know, the amount of respect you treat a woman with is inversely porportional to the number of women you receive.  Don't ask me why this is, it's something messed up inside most of your heads, and not ours.  Many guys are just willing to exploit it.  In reality, the thread title should really be...

"Disrespect women and you'll get more sex"

...as most guys learn by the end of High School.

[Valmy]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Most guys know that this is actually the opposite of reality.  The 'key to the mint', so to speak, is to treat women like crap.  Women with low self-esteem are more likely to jump into bed quickly. 

As myself and most other 'nice guys' know, the amount of respect you treat a woman with is inversely porportional to the number of women you receive.  Don't ask me why this is, it's something messed up inside most of your heads, and not ours.  Many guys are just willing to exploit it.  In reality, the thread title should really be...

"Disrespect women and you'll get more sex"

...as most guys learn by the end of High School.

I found a loop hole.  If you are sarcastic and funny you can get away with not treating them like crap.  This was fortunate because I am just too big of a softy to do it.

[hitorihanzo]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

hitorihanzo wrote...
We are just people.  However, by that very definition, people, we label things to make them easier to identify.  Should we do it all the time?  No.  But we do it.  It's human nature.  For example, a man that acts in an effeminate (having problems spelling today), manner will turn off many women.  Why?  If you were to ask them, they would say because he doesn't act like a real man.  It happens.  Culturally speaking, the women that I have always dated have like really strong men.  If you are over-sensitive, they say that you're acting like a female.  It's just what they're used to.  Nothing wrong with it.

Besides, there are ways of thinking, and acting that women have, that men do not physiologically, due to hormones / brain chemistry.  That's scientifically proven.  So, when someone says that "such and such is thinking like a woman", that's not necessarily a bad thing.  

You aren't incorrect there. But I don't think you should always worry about what other people think of you. If there's one thing that article about "nice guys" got it right, it was that insecurity just isn't sexay. If you would kindly refer to my previous post you'd see what I mean. You know, the one with Zaeed and pink in the same sentense...

You don't find manly women attractive and that's perfectly fine. I don't find girly men attractive either. But I have tons of friends who behave like that. And I'm not going to tell them to change. I'm the one who must learn to appreciate these qualities that they possesse, albeit not in an erotic way.

hitorihanzo wrote...
In regards to the gigantic flaming rose
pin- if you are making a business proposition to a perspective client,
isn't it in your best interest to make sure that nothing you do insults
them?  You are who you are, and that's fine.  But there's nothing wrong
with toning things down, at least until you get their business.  That's
not fake, it's smart in my opinion.

You're assuming people will always get offended - Shouldn't what you say and what you do carry more weight than how you look like? Besides, it's not like I deliberately do that to insult these people. I'd like to think that beneath the pin lies a competent training consultant, the same way I think that beneath the BDSM thongs lies a powerful, hardcore **** that is Jack.

AND for the record I do NOT wear a gigantic flaming rose
pin on my suit every day... I just take the business dress code quite liberally and I used it as an example...

LOL!  Sorry, I was just using your own example about the flaming rose. 

But I see your point.  I think that the level of offense someone may take is dependant of the level of outlandishness- by a conservative standpoint, and the setting.  A gigantic flaming rose- probably not offensive to anyone.  Me with my hoop  earrings in both ears, and fro-hawk interviewing for a corporate investment banker position?  It'll probably be a short meeting.  LOL.

I could say, this is me, deal.  But if I really want the job, well, it's just hair, it doesn't define me.  And earrings can be put in at home.