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[Darthnemesis2]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Balance is boring. Galactic stability only helps those it favors.

Tell that to the dead farmers on Eden Prime

They're dead, they don't care.

They probably cared a little right before they died though.

True, but as of this moment they have no say in the matter.

But, in a stable galaxy where they didn't die, they would have a say in the matter. See what just happened there?

[Collider]

And don't bring up the Reapers, because we know the Council doesn't believe they exist.

That's weird considering that they refer to the reapers in name IIRC at ME1's ending. I'm not they think that the Reapers don't exist, maybe they are trying not cause panic and unrest by acknowledging their existence. They may be hovering towards belief and disbelief. Either way I think they'll come along in ME3.

[MadCat221]

Actually, think about it for a sec...

Spectres are removed from the organization when they die.

Shep may have been un-killed, but he isn't a Spectre anymore. He's just another joe blow, who is subject to laws about associating with terrorist organizations like Cerberus.

So after being saved from a white-washin' from the other three Councilors by Anderson, they see a solution that absolves Shepard of the treason charge: Make him a Spectre again. BABOOM, Shep gets the exemption from laws and isn't "commiting treason" anymore.

Modifié par MadCat221, 28 avril 2010 - 05:44 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

MadCat221 wrote...

Actually, think about it for a sec...

Spectres are removed from the organization when they die.

Shep may have been un-killed, but he isn't a Spectre anymore. He's just another joe blow, who is subject to laws about associating with terrorist organizations like Cerberus.

So after being saved from a white-washin' from the other three Councilors by Anderson, they see a solution that absolves Shepard of the treason charge: Make him a Spectre again. BABOOM, Shep gets the exemption from laws and isn't "commiting treason" anymore.

That's one way to look at it.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

And don't bring up the Reapers, because we know the Council doesn't believe they exist.

That's weird considering that they refer to the reapers in name IIRC at ME1's ending. I'm not they think that the Reapers don't exist, maybe they are trying not cause panic and unrest by acknowledging their existence. They may be hovering towards belief and disbelief. Either way I think they'll come along in ME3.

I'd agree, but Anderson says otherwise and they have no reason (other than being wary of your connections to Cerberus) to lie to you about the Reapers. As far as I can tell, they accepted Shepard's claims initially and then, after Shepard disappeared and months went by... and then a year... without the Reapers appearing they simply grew skeptical. Turian councilor (Velarn?) at that point probably stepped in and said that it was clear Shepard had provided the Council with bad intelligence.

Their beliefs aren't entirely unrational given the circumstances, but considering how wrong they turned out to be in ME1, you'd think they'd be a little bit more supportive of Shepard's claims.

[Darthnemesis2]

XtremegamerHK47 wrote...

Elithranduil wrote...

XtremegamerHK47 wrote...

Nice dictatorship you're running here, OP.

You dare question my authority? OUT OF THE THREAD! NOW!

Meh, I will humor you, and stay.

High five for rebelling

[binaryemperor]

@ OP 
all government and other such positions usually have a wildcard term that pretty much legitimately nulls most and all rules and regulations.

for most real world situations, doing something in the name of "National Security" can justify pretty much anything you ever do ever, like Caeser...

Maybe the Citadel just hates shepard, and "treason" is probably their wildcard for one-upping the Spectres. I mean, It got Saren booted, and Saren argued that what he was doing was protecting the galaxy, even if he was probably wrong in his idea.

Modifié par binaryemperor, 28 avril 2010 - 05:47 .

[Nivenus]

binaryemperor wrote...

 all government and other such positions have a wildcard term that pretty much legitimately nulls most and all rules and regulations.

for most real world situations, doing something in the name of "National Security" can justify pretty much anything you ever do ever, like Caeser...

Maybe the Citadel just hates shepard, and "treason" is probably their wildcard for one-upping the Spectres. I mean, It got Saren booted, and Saren argued that what he was doing was protecting the galaxy, even if he was probably wrong in his idea.

So al-Qaeda then is a legitimate wildcard organization? After all, it does what "needs to be done" from its perspective and answers to no higher legal authority. Cerberus is not like the CIA or NSA. It is a non-governmental organization. It answers to no one.

The STG are subject to the salarian government. The justicars only have their legality within asari space. And I don't recall hearing of an equivalent turian organization (if Garrus' father is at all typical they probably dislike the whole concept of a wildcard).

Cerberus, on the other hand, is a rogue organization that does not answer to the Alliance and which has committed atrocities against not only non-humans but Alliance citizens as well. The comparison is far from apt, especially since the Alliance military considers them a threat and not an asset.

Modifié par Nivenus, 28 avril 2010 - 05:51 .

[MadCat221]

binaryemperor wrote...

@ OP 
all government and other such positions usually have a wildcard term that pretty much legitimately nulls most and all rules and regulations.

for most real world situations, doing something in the name of "National Security" can justify pretty much anything you ever do ever, like Caeser...

Maybe the Citadel just hates shepard, and "treason" is probably their wildcard for one-upping the Spectres. I mean, It got Saren booted, and Saren argued that what he was doing was protecting the galaxy, even if he was probably wrong in his idea.

Shepard is not a Spectre at that point, remember.  Apparently Spectres become Former Spectres when they're listed as KIA.  Once they propose re-inducting Shep into the Spectres, they suddenly become hunkydory (provided you don't throw it back in their faces...).

[Velesath]

MadCat221 wrote...

Actually, think about it for a sec...

Spectres are removed from the organization when they die.

Shep may have been un-killed, but he isn't a Spectre anymore. He's just another joe blow, who is subject to laws about associating with terrorist organizations like Cerberus.

So after being saved from a white-washin' from the other three Councilors by Anderson, they see a solution that absolves Shepard of the treason charge: Make him a Spectre again. BABOOM, Shep gets the exemption from laws and isn't "commiting treason" anymore.

I was just about to say basically the same thing... Shep DIED. Cerberus brought him back, and as we all know they had the option to put a control chip in his brain. The Council was wary of his return, his actions, and his motives... yet they still agreed to speak with him and reinstate his Spectre status. They could've just condemned him based on the simple fact that it was Cerberus that brought him back and he was working with them, but they gave him a chance and that worked out about as well as it could imo

[Darthnemesis2]

I think this whole argument boils down to whether or not you think Cerberus is a terrorist organization. If they are, then obviously the victims of their attacks (The Council/Alliance) will call anyone working with Cerberus traitors. If, for whatever reason, you think they aren't terrorists then I guess you could justify working for both Cerberus and the Council.

[Velesath]

Shandepared wrote...

Elithranduil wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

AshiraShepard wrote...

Another reason for this thread I suppose.

You'd think even to Shepard, the one who saved them from the bloody reaper they would acknowledge it. They only kept it quiet so as not to scare the public, and yet to Shepard...they treat the Spectre who saved their asses like a mental patient you dangle something shiny in front of.

I think the Salarian Councilor is on board with Shepard and Anderson but is trying to keep quiet about it until more evidence is presented.  Mordin and his Pupil both know about Reaper indoctrination.  That would mean the STG knows about it.  I would assume that the Salarian Councilor knows about it as well (being that he has such a high position in Government).

This is a very interesting point and something I didn't pick up on during Mordin's loyalty mission. If the Reapers are such a scam, why are there published studies on indoctrination?

Why then should the Council persist in reprimanding Shepard when the whole point of Shepard's Spectre status is DO WHATEVER IT TAKES and go outside normal legal channels to get the job done.

If the Council can't live with Shepard working with shady organisations like Cerberus in the course of his dealings - they should have thought of that when they decided to found the Special Tactics and Reconnaissance branch with no real command structure.

Where do you get this dialog/information? I never once got any indication that anybody knew about indoctrination except myself and the Illusive Man.

In-game conversations with Mordin. I don't remember specifically when, but its there.

[MadCat221]

Shandepared wrote...

Elithranduil wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

AshiraShepard wrote...

Another reason for this thread I suppose.

You'd think even to Shepard, the one who saved them from the bloody reaper they would acknowledge it. They only kept it quiet so as not to scare the public, and yet to Shepard...they treat the Spectre who saved their asses like a mental patient you dangle something shiny in front of.

I think the Salarian Councilor is on board with Shepard and Anderson but is trying to keep quiet about it until more evidence is presented.  Mordin and his Pupil both know about Reaper indoctrination.  That would mean the STG knows about it.  I would assume that the Salarian Councilor knows about it as well (being that he has such a high position in Government).

This is a very interesting point and something I didn't pick up on during Mordin's loyalty mission. If the Reapers are such a scam, why are there published studies on indoctrination?

Why then should the Council persist in reprimanding Shepard when the whole point of Shepard's Spectre status is DO WHATEVER IT TAKES and go outside normal legal channels to get the job done.

If the Council can't live with Shepard working with shady organisations like Cerberus in the course of his dealings - they should have thought of that when they decided to found the Special Tactics and Reconnaissance branch with no real command structure.

Where do you get this dialog/information? I never once got any indication that anybody knew about indoctrination except myself and the Illusive Man.

That one Asari lab assistant knew.

The "control subject" knew  (though it's unknown if he escaped the blast).

I think that the indoctrination stuff came up when talking with his protege on Tuchanka.  However, I think it may have just been mind control in general: stronger mind control equals less autonomous ability.  It's the same anywhere: The Geth became self-aware because the Quarians wanted them to be able to do more and more complex tasks.

Modifié par MadCat221, 28 avril 2010 - 05:57 .

[Nivenus]

gmartin40 wrote...

Don't forget that in the war with the Soviets the US supported al-Qaeda. Nothing is ever realy justified, but if we get over it we can fight our enemies together, like the Reapers.

Actually, we supported the mujahadeen, some of whom became the Taliban, some of whom became the Northern Alliance. al-Qaeda and the Taliban didn't exist yet. You do have a point though.

Thing is... the Council doesn't believe the Reapers exist. If they did, they might be willing to overlook Cerberus' record. They don't and the fact they reinstate Shepard is remarkably supportive of them in light of this.

[Nivenus]

You know, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the Council accepts the idea of indoctrination but not the Reapers. After all, it's entirely possible to find about the one before the latter (well - about the indoctrination being Reaper tech).