156 réponses à ce sujet

[STG]

Elithranduil wrote...
Cerberus support a greater role for Humanity in the Galactic Community.

Tell that to colonists on Feros or all those poor guys who got experimented on. I am sure they will understand.

[askanec]

I'm just curious why Shepard is a Spectre and yet nobody (aside from Andersen) really seems to care where he is, what's he's doing and who he's with. He doesn't even get job assignments, nor does he need to report to so-and-so periodically. Basically, Shepard has landed the most cushy job in the galaxy. He could be surfing the extranet all day and nobody will come check on him.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not counting the Codex, which seems to be written from an in universe scholar's point of view. (some of the time anyways) Mordin's pupil on Tuchanka mentions a paper on Reaper Indoctrination.





Shepard's charge of treason is fairly straightforward. Cerberus is a known terrorist organization which has committed known terrorist acts against both the Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council races. If Shepard is working for them, then he is an enemy of a the Council. Just like Saren was with the Geth.

[askanec]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Not counting the Codex, which seems to be written from an in universe scholar's point of view. (some of the time anyways) Mordin's pupil on Tuchanka mentions a paper on Reaper Indoctrination.


Shepard's charge of treason is fairly straightforward. Cerberus is a known terrorist organization which has committed known terrorist acts against both the Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council races. If Shepard is working for them, then he is an enemy of a the Council. Just like Saren was with the Geth.

If Shepard hasn't done anything yet, then what can they charge him with? Guilt by association?

Saren's case is much more straight forward, since there's evidence that he's actually involved in the attack on Eden Prime.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If s/he's working for a terrorist group then I don't think it matters if Shepard personally commits any terrorist acts or not. He could still be charged with treason.

I'm not saying it was entirely fair how they treated Shepard but I am able to see the probem using their perspective.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 avril 2010 - 05:51 .

[Darthnemesis2]

I hate to have to say this again, but Saren was also trying to protect the galaxy any way he saw fit. To him that meant letting most of the galaxy die so that he could live. The council stepped in there, so why not when Shep is working for a known terrorist threat? Its the same thing, except we (the player) knows Shep is only doing what's best. From the Council's perspective Shep is just another Saren.

Plus, you gotta think, after the whole Saren fiasco they likely revised their thoughts on how Spectres should operate. Shep just missed the memo.

[Dean_the_Young]

Same reason they gave Saren the boot: 'operate outside the law' does not mean 'anything.' It's not that Spectres don't operate within limits, it's that that rather than the objective limits of the law they operate within the subjective limits of the Council, who turns a blind eye as long as it brings results. When they can not turn a blind eye, such as for doing something extremely counter to the Council's interests, they revoke the status.



The end that Shepard works with Cerberus for, to oppose the Reapers, is not one that the Council accepts or acknowledges as legitimate. The means that he does it by, working with Cerberus, is one that threatens the interests of 3/4ths of the Council (assuming it isn't all human). As there's plenty of possibility for Shepard to be something or someone other than himself (a clone, a command-chip agent, etc.), they have valid reason to be concerned that the person they gave Spectre status to is no longer the individual they deemed worthy to hold it.



Of course, that the Council will give it back to you just points that they are willing to have some faith in you to run your course, even if they are concerned.

[CroGamer002]

Whole Council is hypocritical.

[devilsgrin]

Elithranduil wrote...

Spectres have one primary goal: preserve galactic stability by any means
necessary. They are above the law and will do whatever it takes to
complete their mission.

Spectres act in any way they see fit, either with careful diplomacy or
ruthless force, being officially above any law.

The Council were even more wary that Shepard was working with Cerberus,
considering it treason.

Why should it matter who Shepard works with as long as he gets the job done? What's the point of being above the law with unlimited jurisdiction if you can be taken down with a charge of treason? It's not like he went rogue like Saren. He came to the Council and saw fit to fill them in.

Why should he be intimidated by the threat of prosecution for treason?

ONE GOAL: PRESERVE GALACTIC STABILITY

BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!

Cerberus is that means.

PS: I wish our unique role as a Spectre was expanded upon in this game. Having something as significant as that swept to the side was very disappointing. I was expecting for far more integration into the main game.

I imagine in ME3 it will also be a completely redundant achievement.

I really have to disagree with Cerberus' intentions. It becomes quite clear throughout ones conversations with TIM and Miranda that Cerberus' intentions, whilst peripherally favourable to the whole galaxy, are exclusively focussed upon human dominance. Indeed, its apparent that TIM would prefer a galaxy without any aliens at all, unless they functioned as lesser species under human control 
For this one reason, as with the one and only reason that Saren was declared a traitor and had a death mark placed upon his head, Shepard appears a traitor. Saren was indeed a traitor, by alligning with the Geth he became and enemy of the Council, indeed, of all Council Space.
Shepard has alligned with a known human-supremacist terrotist organisation. Whether its using them, or serving them, makes no difference from a Council perspective. All of Cerberus' actions are counter to the goals of galactic stability. Since ANY act that Shepard performs whilst flying around in a Cerberus ship, with Cerberus operatives, and a Cerberus crew, actually helps Cerberus achieve a reprehensible level of legitimacy. Its promoting Terrorism as a good thing. Simple. any publicity (Alliance/Earth) that paints Cerberus in a good light is bad thing for galactic stability.  
The Canon Shepard should NEVER work even WITH Cerberus. (canon shepard is a Sole Survivor after-all). There is ZERO sense in doing even one thing beyond that initial conversation with TIM. Shepard should have gone straight to the Council after that and properly explained the situation. Shepard also suffers from plot-hole-stupidity. At times a brilliant diplomat, at other times completely incapable of speaking coherantly, or getting across the point he/she should be making... for one. "i'm not working FOR Cerberus, I'm utilising their resources whilst operating outside of Citadel/Council space, in the Terminus Systems.
Onto that also. The reason no big deal is made out of your being a SPECTRE is simple. SPECTREs are only acknowledged within Council Space. 90% or more of ME2 takes place in the terminus systems, which are outside of that jurisdiction. They often ackowledge shep's bad-ass-ness, but a SPECTRE ... shrugs...  from a terminus citizen, your just an especially deadly thug with a gun.

[CroGamer002]

Shandepared wrote...

The Spectres were a bad idea to begin with.

So was the Council.
Unfortunately they lead galaxy so we have Specters too.

[devilsgrin]

Mesina2 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

The Spectres were a bad idea to begin with.

So was the Council.
Unfortunately they lead galaxy so we have Specters too.

and what would you recommend to replace the Council? galactic warfare on an apocalyptic scale?

[didymos1120]

devilsgrin wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

The Spectres were a bad idea to begin with.

So was the Council.
Unfortunately they lead galaxy so we have Specters too.

and what would you recommend to replace the Council? galactic warfare on an apocalyptic scale?

Yes, because there are clearly only two possible options.  You either have:

a. 3/4 member oligarchy

or:

b. Galaxy-wide war

Hell, the second one has happened twice even with the Council:

Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 août 2010 - 08:43 .

[devilsgrin]

didymos1120 wrote...

devilsgrin wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

The Spectres were a bad idea to begin with.

So was the Council.
Unfortunately they lead galaxy so we have Specters too.

and what would you recommend to replace the Council? galactic warfare on an apocalyptic scale?

Yes, because there are clearly only two possible options when it comes to galactic governance:

1. A 3/4 member oligarchy
2. Galaxy-wide war

Hell, the second one has happened twice even with the Council:

Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions

oligarchies aren't necessarily bad things. not "fair" perhaps to the masses, but there is inherant stability in a benign oligarchy (as in the Council)... oppressive oligarchies of course, promote rebellion (as we would see in Apartheid).

Can you see a galaxy without full-scale continuous warfare without the mediation brought to the Galaxy by the Council? The Humans and Turians would be at war continuously, with eachother and with the others. not to mention the Krogan...

[Raizo]

Elithranduil wrote...

Spectres have one primary goal: preserve galactic stability by any means
necessary. They are above the law and will do whatever it takes to
complete their mission.

Spectres act in any way they see fit, either with careful diplomacy or
ruthless force, being officially above any law.

The Council were even more wary that Shepard was working with Cerberus,
considering it treason.

Why should it matter who Shepard works with as long as he gets the job done? What's the point of being above the law with unlimited jurisdiction if you can be taken down with a charge of treason? It's not like he went rogue like Saren. He came to the Council and saw fit to fill them in.

Why should he be intimidated by the threat of prosecution for treason?

ONE GOAL: PRESERVE GALACTIC STABILITY

BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!

Cerberus is that means.

PS: I wish our unique role as a Spectre was expanded upon in this game. Having something as significant as that swept to the side was very disappointing. I was expecting for far more integration into the main game.

I imagine in ME3 it will also be a completely redundant achievement.

You bring up a good point, that Spectre's are alowed to use any means necessary to cary out thier missions and preserve Galactic stability.

You are however ignoring certain factors:

Shepard is a confirmed KIA by survivors of the Normandy SR-1, now he's suddendly alive again after being dead for 2 years and working for Cerebus and organisation known for having a pro human/anti alien standpoint.  How do you think this looks to the Council. For all they know that's not the real Shepard or maybe he has been brainwashed by Cerebus. The Council has to take into concideration that if Shepard is who he says he is then he might have gone rogue like Saren did, they have every right to cautious with how they deal with Shepard.

Second of all, I'm not exactly sure what your playthrough of ME2 was like but the Council re-insated my Spectre status and they are supporting my Shepards mission to fight the Collectors ( albiet un-officially, they said that they can't be seen publicy supporting Shepard as long as he is working with Cerebus but by re-instating Shepard's Spectre status it does show that they still support him ). I don't see in any hypocrisy in that. The Council is letting my Shepard do his job using any means necessary that he sees fit.

[jklinders]

Discussion seems to have branched out here but I'll simply address the original topic before I expand on the rest.

The Spectres may be entitled to do whatever is necessary to preserve galactic stability, but they still answer to the council. If the council says "no, bad spectre no cerberus for you" then that is part of the deal. If you can beat someone senseless in a police station with his lawyer waiting outside with no repercussions...seems to me you have some freedom of action. Like it or not the council decides who their enemies are and working for cerberus without consulting them first after a 2 year silence is going to look very suspicious.

Let me expand on that very briefly. By TIM's own admission we know that he spead rumors that Shepard "was alive and working for Cerberus". What we don't know is when that romor was spread. I military contracting works in similar fashoin in the future as itr does now I suspect Ashley/Kaidan was on Horizon a good long tiome setting those defences up, they were definately there before Shep woke up. This "rumor" being spread in my admittedly Cerberus hating opinion was a calculated tactic to separate Shep his/her allies. This is completely within TIM's character and precisely what I would have donne in his place.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So yes the council does not trust Shepard. This brings me to part 2, what does the council really think of the reapers? As Legion would say insufficient data. First let's admit it. Even Anderson does not trust Shepard. He was holding back on Ashley/Kaidan, who knows what else he held back on. He was a Spectre candidate after all, that means he is likely to have a pretty good streak of pragmatism running through him. He could be lying about how the council was approaching the matter or it could really be as it seemed, but Anderson does not trust Cerberus and it is doubtful that mere words are enough to make him feel better about Shepard working fo rthem due to the unspecified nature of the rumors TIM spread about Shep working for Cerberus. Enough about Anderson.

All of the councilors are politicians and they are not necessarily former military like Anderson. Sure the Turian was and I don't believe for a minute that he thought that Sovereign was just another geth ship. The turians reverse engineered the Thanix cannon and if he was not aware of that I'll eat my hat. These politicians however are simply representatives of their actual governments. So they do not necessarily know everything. We know that the STG was researching indoctrination and Mordin did not bat an eye at the idea of reapers. The Turian military is on to something, the only unknown factor to me is the Asari. I really think the Asari just want to wish the problem away, there is very little evidence that they are reacting to the threat at all. Though we don't know that because we have no asari insiders to give us insight.

I think there is more going on than meets the eye here.

[LPPrince]

To keep things simple-



Shepard lost his/her Spectre status when he/she died.



Therefore, working with Cerberus COULD be seen as treason.



BUT, if the Council lives or Anderson is on the Council, they'll restore your Spectre status, thus eliminating the possibility of the treason charge.



Course, they could always say, "Its Cerberus, and they're out to get everyone, so its still treason".



Who knows. Depends on how its written.

[atheelogos]

LPPrince wrote...

To keep things simple-

Shepard lost his/her Spectre status when he/she died.

Therefore, working with Cerberus COULD be seen as treason.

BUT, if the Council lives or Anderson is on the Council, they'll restore your Spectre status, thus eliminating the possibility of the treason charge.

Course, they could always say, "Its Cerberus, and they're out to get everyone, so its still treason".

Who knows. Depends on how its written.

I'm pretty sure Anderson says your Spector status was never officially revoked, which is why the other Council members can't do anything even if they wanted to.

Modifié par atheelogos, 01 août 2010 - 01:40 .

[atheelogos]

Elithranduil wrote...

Spectres have one primary goal: preserve galactic stability by any means
necessary. They are above the law and will do whatever it takes to
complete their mission.

Spectres act in any way they see fit, either with careful diplomacy or
ruthless force, being officially above any law.

The Council were even more wary that Shepard was working with Cerberus,
considering it treason.

Why should it matter who Shepard works with as long as he gets the job done? What's the point of being above the law with unlimited jurisdiction if you can be taken down with a charge of treason? It's not like he went rogue like Saren. He came to the Council and saw fit to fill them in.

Cerberus, in their eyes, is an enemy. They have good reasons th worry. And they never stopped him from working with TIM. They only voiced their concerns.

Why should he be intimidated by the threat of prosecution for treason?

I don't know about you but my Shepard wasn't. With that said they do have the right to revoke his/her Spector status and charge you with treason afterward. So I suppose thats one reason to worry.

ONE GOAL: PRESERVE GALACTIC STABILITY

BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!

Cerberus is that means.

PS: I wish our unique role as a Spectre was expanded upon in this game. Having something as significant as that swept to the side was very disappointing. I was expecting for far more integration into the main game.

I hear ya. They made such a big deal out of it in the first game and then acted like it didn't happen the second. A lilttle disapointing to say the least, though I must say that if they were to get rid of Shepard being a Spector in the third game I wouldn't mind. Since war is upon us it only makes sense for Shep, and the other Spectors, to go back their respective militaries and fight this long war.

I imagine in ME3 it will also be a completely redundant achievement.

Modifié par atheelogos, 01 août 2010 - 01:44 .

[atheelogos]

Damn I messed up that last post. lol Hopefully you get what I was trying to say. Forgive me but I've been up for....... too long. I need sleep.

[Dean_the_Young]

'Any means necessary' has always been contingent on 'means that the Council can accept ignoring.' It's a measure subjective to the judgment of the Council, as it has always been. A spectre's freedoms flows from the Council's assent: it is not, and never has been, a carte blanch irrevocable right once granted.