156 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

askanec wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Not counting the Codex, which seems to be written from an in universe scholar's point of view. (some of the time anyways) Mordin's pupil on Tuchanka mentions a paper on Reaper Indoctrination.


Shepard's charge of treason is fairly straightforward. Cerberus is a known terrorist organization which has committed known terrorist acts against both the Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council races. If Shepard is working for them, then he is an enemy of a the Council. Just like Saren was with the Geth.

If Shepard hasn't done anything yet, then what can they charge him with? Guilt by association?

Actually, yes. People can be charged with harboring and aiding known terrorists/fugitives right now, in real life.

[didymos1120]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

'Any means necessary' has always been contingent on 'means that the Council can accept ignoring.' It's a measure subjective to the judgment of the Council, as it has always been. A spectre's freedoms flows from the Council's assent: it is not, and never has been, a carte blanch irrevocable right once granted.[/quote]

Exactly.  From Revelation:

[quote]As a Spectre, he had the legal right to forcibly extract information from anyone, even Alliance soldiers.  But having that right and actually being able to use it were two different things.[/quote]

and later:

[quote]"If you die, the Alliance will be crying out for my head. And the Council just might be inclined to give it to them. At the very least, they'd revoke my Spectre status."

[thegreateski]

They can call it treason if they want but I would LOVE to see them try and arrest Shepard.



Assuming of course that they can even find him.

[Dean_the_Young]

Depends if it's a Paragon or Renegade Shepard. But gas attack isn't too hard to arrange.

[Sajuro]

I'm not worried about treason charges since I promoted the alliance/council over Cerberus at every chance and topped it off with one blown up collector base.

[Kasen]

Shandepared wrote...

That won't help you, Sajuro. You still aided Cerberus and committed any number of questionable acts in recruiting and securing the loyalty of your specialists.

If you want to go into past actions from ME1, Shepard also detonated a nuclear device on a garden world (a big no-no if I recall the codex entry correctly) and stole the most advanced human warship to stop Saren.

That said, I hope that Bioware doesn't go down the route of having Shepard accused of treason in ME3.

[Sajuro]

Shandepared wrote...

That won't help you, Sajuro. You still aided Cerberus and committed any number of questionable acts in recruiting and securing the loyalty of your specialists.

Saved a district from a collector super plague
Took out 3 gangs on Omega
blew up a prison ship run by an extortionist which had some of the worst criminals in the galaxy
Killed a crazy woman building an army of mercenaries
Saved Horizon
Saved Tali on Haelstrom
Took out a base full of Eclipse mercs who were smuggling drugs on Illium
aided in the assassination of Nassana Dantius who had her workers killed
Acquired the Reaper IFF and ended up destroying the derelict reaper

found a ship that wrecked 10 years ago and saved the crew from their morally corrupt captain.
kept eclipse from kidnapping a young woman
blew up the teltin facility where children were tortured but didn't kill mentally unstable man
Wiped out clan of Krogan who were planning on curing Genophage and "conquering the the galaxy on a sea of blood"
Defeated a Thresher Maw in Grunt's rite of passage
Saved an anti human Turian politician from assassination, while giving a young drell a second chance
Killed Hock who was a notorious scumbag, and his private army
Saved a factory full of workers
Defended Tali at trial and got her a full acquittal
rewrote the heretics so they would be at least neutral to organics.
Stopped an Ardat Yakshi
Got sidonis killed- my bad
yep, my shep is a real traitor

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Sajuro wrote...
Saved a district from a collector super plague[/quote]To secure allegience of someone who could uncharitably be classified as a war criminal.

Certainly by human military/legal standards.
[quote]
blew up a prison ship run by an extortionist which had some of the worst criminals in the galaxy[/quote]The fact that he was keeping some of the worst criminals in the galaxy locked up, and you destroyed that, is a mark against you...

So is the fact that you, you know, did it expresly to recruit Jack.

Jack.

Worst of the worst. Repeated (possibly mass) murderer. Space-station crasher.
[quote]
Killed a crazy woman building an army of mercenaries[/quote]To liberate and recruit creater of said army, a war criminal by Krogan standards, to be turned over to/work with Cerberus (dialogue choices depending).

We'll ignore the fruits of Okeer's research, and the likely acts of Grunt after the game.
[quote]
Saved Horizon[/quote]The Alliance is still out whether Cerberus wasbehind it or not. Just like Shepard said they might.

[quote]
Saved Tali on Haelstrom[/quote]Given Council history towards the Quarians, that's irrelevant at best.

[quote]
Took out a base full of Eclipse mercs who were smuggling drugs on Illium[/quote]Not Citadel space.
[quote]
aided in the assassination of Nassana Dantius who had her workers killed[/quote]Nassana Dantius, who had many friends, or at least ties, on the Citadel.

No, that can't work against you at all.

[quote]
Acquired the Reaper IFF and ended up destroying the derelict reaper[/quote]'Ah yes...'

[quote]
found a ship that wrecked 10 years ago and saved the crew from their morally corrupt captain.[/quote]Who on the Council cares?
[quote]
kept eclipse from kidnapping a young woman[/quote]Aided top lieutenant of anti-Council terrorist organization in child abduction.

[quote]
blew up the teltin facility where children were tortured but didn't kill mentally unstable man[/quote]Nuke on garden class world = major Council crime.


[quote]
Defeated a Thresher Maw in Grunt's rite of passage[/quote]Killed specimen of endangered species.
[quote]
Saved an anti human Turian politician from assassination, while giving a young drell a second chance[/quote]Abused position/authority to grant personal favors and cover up serious crime.

[quote]
Killed Hock who was a notorious scumbag, and his private army[/quote]Killed major Alliance capitalist elite with ties to influential people.

See Nassana.

[quote]
Saved a factory full of workers[/quote]Let Blue Suns leader/interstellar ringleader continue to harm galactic stability.

[quote]
Defended Tali at trial and got her a full acquittal[/quote]Hid potent anti-Geth research at a time at which Geth remain active and conducting potentially catastrophic operations inside Citadel Space, while Geth remain intact inside the Perseus Veil.
[quote]
rewrote the heretics so they would be at least neutral to organics.[/quote]Aided and abetted Geth, illegal AI who have continually killed all attempts at communication for centures even before Eden Prime.

[quote]
Stopped an Ardat Yakshi[/quote]Let vigilante with much higher body count continue to kill and violate civil rights of suspected and alleged criminals.

[quote]
Got sidonis killed- my bad[/quote]Cooperated in first degree murder of Turian citizen not in violation of any Citadel laws.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 août 2010 - 05:12 .

[didymos1120]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Saved Horizon

The Alliance is still out whether Cerberus wasbehind it or not. Just like Shepard said they might.

No, they know better.  You can get this conversation no matter who is Councilor:



Well, OK: assuming they accept Anderson's take on things.

[didymos1120]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Defeated a Thresher Maw in Grunt's rite of passage

Killed specimen of endangered species.

OK, I get the whole devil's advocate thing, but you're just making that one up. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 02 août 2010 - 05:39 .

[HTTP 404]

in my playthrough, the council reinstated my spectre status even when i worked with Cerberus. so theres no issue here.

[Sajuro]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Sajuro wrote...
Saved a district from a collector super plague[/quote]To secure allegience of someone who could uncharitably be classified as a war criminal.

Certainly by human military/legal standards.
[/quote]
though nonetheless saving the lives of everyone in the district, those not killed by the plague would be killed by the massive expansion of the Vorcha
[quote]
blew up a prison ship run by an extortionist which had some of the worst criminals in the galaxy[/quote]The fact that he was keeping some of the worst criminals in the galaxy locked up, and you destroyed that, is a mark against you...

So is the fact that you, you know, did it expresly to recruit Jack.

Jack.

Worst of the worst. Repeated (possibly mass) murderer. Space-station crasher.
[/quote]
You forgot vandal, those hanar really like that moon
[quote]
Killed a crazy woman building an army of mercenaries[/quote][quote]To liberate and recruit creater of said army, a war criminal by Krogan standards, to be turned over to/work with Cerberus (dialogue choices depending).

We'll ignore the fruits of Okeer's research, and the likely acts of Grunt after the game.
[/quote]
though the creator did end up dying as a result of my innefficiency, yay shepard :happy:
[quote]
Saved Horizon[/quote][quote]The Alliance is still out whether Cerberus wasbehind it or not. Just like Shepard said they might. [/quote] Regardless, Shepard blasted through the collectors there and there's probably footage to prove it.

[quote]
Saved Tali on Haelstrom[/quote][quote]Given Council history towards the Quarians, that's irrelevant at best. [/quote]
providing valuable data on dark energy

[quote]
Took out a base full of Eclipse mercs who were smuggling drugs on Illium[/quote][quote]Not Citadel space. [/quote]
should score some points with the Asari Councilor
[quote]
aided in the assassination of Nassana Dantius who had her workers killed[/quote][quote]Nassana Dantius, who had many friends, or at least ties, on the Citadel.

No, that can't work against you at all. [/quote]
the fact that someone hated her enough to hire Thane suggested that more then one person knew she was nutters. Testimony from the salarian workers would vindicate you.

[quote]
Acquired the Reaper IFF and ended up destroying the derelict reaper[/quote[quote]]'Ah yes...'[/quote]
ah, well met

[quote]
found a ship that wrecked 10 years ago and saved the crew from their morally corrupt captain.[/quote][quote]Who on the Council cares? [/quote] Anderson maybe, shows the council that you have a sense of right and wrong and will stand up for the innocent
[quote]
kept eclipse from kidnapping a young woman[/quote]Aided top lieutenant of anti-Council terrorist organization in child abduction.

[quote]
blew up the teltin facility where children were tortured but didn't kill mentally unstable man[/quote][quote[Nuke on garden class world = major Council crime. [/quote] not in council space , plus I was a Spectre and did that before. By the time I'm done, setting off a nuke on a garden world will be called 'pulling a Shepard'


[quote]
Defeated a Thresher Maw in Grunt's rite of passage[/quote][quote]Killed specimen of endangered species. [/quote] Now that's just stretching, Thresher Maws are by no means endangered.
[quote]
Saved an anti human Turian politician from assassination, while giving a young drell a second chance[/quote][quote]Abused position/authority to grant personal favors and cover up serious crime. [/quote] That's par for C-sec nowadays, I didn't say my Shepard was squeaky

[quote]
Killed Hock who was a notorious scumbag, and his private army[/quote][quote]Killed major Alliance capitalist elite with ties to influential people.

See Nassana. [/quote]
He took the statue of liberty's head!

[quote]
Saved a factory full of workers[/quote][quote]Let Blue Suns leader/interstellar ringleader continue to harm galactic stability. [/quote] and what, the blue suns would have broken up if I killed him? If anything, the resulting turmoil and power struggles would cause more instability.

[quote]
Defended Tali at trial and got her a full acquittal[/quote][quote]Hid potent anti-Geth research at a time at which Geth remain active and conducting potentially catastrophic operations inside Citadel Space, while Geth remain intact inside the Perseus Veil. [/quote] From the quarians, could still tell the council of the research
[quote]
rewrote the heretics so they would be at least neutral to organics.[/quote][quote]Aided and abetted Geth, illegal AI who have continually killed all attempts at communication for centures even before Eden Prime. [/quote] ended the Geth Threat beyond the Perseus veil and the threat of the entire geth force falling under the Reaper''s sway

[quote]
Stopped an Ardat Yakshi[/quote][quote]Let vigilante with much higher body count continue to kill and violate civil rights of suspected and alleged criminals. [/quote] I doubt Samara as a higher body count than Morinth. Again, this could score points with the Asari councilor.

[quote]
Got sidonis killed- my bad[/quote][quote]Cooperated in first degree murder of Turian citizen not in violation of any Citadel laws.
[/quote]
Had my Spectre status reinstated, and he wasn't technically a citizen of the Citadel and he was committing a crime by using a fake identity.
Glad you didn't see a problem with Mordin's loyalty.

Modifié par Sajuro, 02 août 2010 - 05:52 .

[Jigero]

Hypocrisy in a political and governing organization!? that's never happened before!

[Geth001]

Jigero wrote...

Hypocrisy in a political and governing organization!? that's never happened before!

It's almost like the moral ambiguity of the spectres was actually something that was partially explored in ME1. And an issue with governemnts in general is something explored in both games, from the more anarchist (Omega) to the more structured.

[Simpfan]

Spectres still answer to the Council directly.

And working for an organization classified as terrorists and not exactly with the most friendly leanings towards the Council and its races, can be seen as worrisome.

Its not hypocrisy, it makes sense.

[Super ._. Shepard]

Specters do what the council tell them to do by ANY MEANS NECESSARY and they are above the law

[alienatedflea]

yea i dont get it either...shep was a spectre...he is above the law and in a rank where it calls upon you to go above and beyond the call of duty...you do whatever you have to get the job done...they said this in the game...and to say council is better than cerberus is non sense...the council is a legal force because people recognize it as such while cerberus is a privately owned and operated company looking after the best interests in humanity and is recognized as a terrrorist group because the council and the alliance says so...the alliance is a joke when it comes to salarians stg branch and the asari's black ops branch...it is clear that the council would rather not see humans have their own black ops like cerberus therefore if there is anyway of discrediting the group they will take it for example the council threw shep until a school bus so cerberus would not gain any more influence...btw the council (for those who still think the council is better than Cerberus)..the asari and the salarians made up the council...they recruited the turians after dealing with the krogan...but why wasnt krogan invited in the council when they clearly conquered the rachni in the Rachni Wars? bc the council is power hungry...not a peace bringing force...the volrus help the council's economy but they didnt get invited too because they are power hungry...like Cerberus is...

[Seth Burns]

That's like saying "Saren is trying to do something good by working with the Reapers and Geth, BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE! HE IS ABOVE THE LAW!" Um, no.



They can revoke your status if they find you're not doing the right thing. Working for a terroist group? Yeah that's not exactly the right thing, even if you can justify it the Council wouldn't understand.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Seth Burns wrote...

That's like saying "Saren is trying to do something good by working with the Reapers and Geth, BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE! HE IS ABOVE THE LAW!" Um, no.

They can revoke your status if they find you're not doing the right thing. Working for a terroist group? Yeah that's not exactly the right thing, even if you can justify it the Council wouldn't understand.

it's a plot hole... why would shep work for cerberus if he fought them in mass effect 1?

[alienatedflea]

HTTP 404 wrote...

in my playthrough, the council reinstated my spectre status even when i worked with Cerberus. so theres no issue here.

well yes they do reinstate your spectre status but until the condition that you would not go into the terminus systems i think or its the veil...one or the other...but you still didnt get the status for very long...

[jklinders]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Defeated a Thresher Maw in Grunt's rite of passage

Killed specimen of endangered species.

OK, I get the whole devil's advocate thing, but you're just making that one up. 

I concur. Thresher maws can live literally anywhere there is anything remotely related toi food. They are endangered in about the same way the cold virus is.

[Kranq]

If Cerberus is a terrorist organisation, and/or at war with the council, how is it that a clearly marked, Cerberus friggate can peacefully dock? Sheppard and his/her crew can go meet with the council, then come & go from the facility as they please. No one keeps their enemies that close. The Quarians at least made Tali authenticate and vouch for the ship before allowing it to dock, and even then send a squad of guards to meet them.

On all of my playthroughs, even the 1 where I went out of my way to not play nice with the council, they took no action against Sheppard. If there is a way to get Sheppard declared a criminal by the council and loose access to the citadel, I haven't found it. The council may not agree with Cerberus or it's methods, but they are clearly not at war or been declared criminals.

Modifié par Kranq, 02 août 2010 - 03:12 .