241 réponses à ce sujet

[Highdragonslayer]

asaiasai wrote...

Leliana is probably my favorite party character in the game. She is written well, and it really takes quite a bit to get her to disapprove unlike some amoralistic swamp witch who shall remain nameless. The swamp witch gets all the love because she is written for the teenage fan boys, easy, amoralistic, and generally angst filled,so they can relate, like shooting fish in a barrel. What Leliana wants, Leliana gets, the rest of them can go suck eggs for all i care. Leliana is a character for a more discerning taste, sweet, smooth, absolutely beautyful both inside and outside, the perfect combo. Leliana has class, culture, is more refined in the ways of proper decorum, knows how to act like a lady, but knows how to get the job done.

As has been suggested i like Leliana regardless of the religious affiliation. I think anybody who practices any organized religion is a sucker, but i still love Leliana in spite of it all. To corrupt the newfound innocence, to get a drunk coed to flash for girls gone wild is nothing, get a nun to flash for girls gone wild well that is something.

Asai

Ah yes the classic my character character is awesome and your character is horrible. Then you went insulted the fans of said character. You sir are a grade A douchebag

[Liquidcz]

Highdragonslayer wrote...
Ah yes the classic my character character is awesome and your character is horrible. Then you went insulted the fans of said character. You sir are a grade A douchebag

Nice to hear this from you. Considering the post below, you're probably not even of the age appropriate to play this game.

Highdragonslayer wrote...

HI IM LELIANA ON XBOX 360 IF WE WANT TO OPEN LOCKS YOU GOTTA TAKE ME ALONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay thats fine I guess...

OH YEA I FORGOT TO MENTION I SUCK IN COMBAT BECAUSE ARCHERY ISNT FIXED YET HEHEHEEHHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHE FACE THE HORROR OF MY ACCENT TEAAAAAAAAAAAAAGANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

Oh no... oh no...

OH GOD OH MAN OH GOD OH MAN OH GOD OH MAN OH GOD

Modifié par Liquidcz, 01 mai 2010 - 02:24 .

[Sarah1281]

She is written well, and it really takes quite a bit to get her to disapprove unlike some amoralistic swamp witch who shall remain nameless.

I disagree. Morrigan disapproves of anything she considers impractical (though sometimes her definition isn't in line with reality) and Leliana disapproves of anything she considers immoral or anti-Chantry. Hardened Leliana disapproves less and can be talked down and Morrigan has plenty of opportunities to be talked out of approval loss (when you meet Wynne at the Tower, for instance).

[Master Shiori]

Sarah1281 wrote...

She is written well, and it really takes quite a bit to get her to disapprove unlike some amoralistic swamp witch who shall remain nameless.

I disagree. Morrigan disapproves of anything she considers impractical (though sometimes her definition isn't in line with reality) and Leliana disapproves of anything she considers immoral or anti-Chantry. Hardened Leliana disapproves less and can be talked down and Morrigan has plenty of opportunities to be talked out of approval loss (when you meet Wynne at the Tower, for instance).

Well said.

Morrigan explains her views and moral values if you bother taking the time to actually talk to her and keep an open mind.
In fact, considering how much aproval you can get during her conversations at camp, if you pick the correct dialogue options, any aproval loss you suffer for your decisions is practicaly laughable.

And let's not even get into how many Morrigan specific gifts there are in this game. These alone can practically max out her aproval.

[Nuclear]

Master Shiori wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

She is written well, and it really takes quite a bit to get her to disapprove unlike some amoralistic swamp witch who shall remain nameless.

I disagree. Morrigan disapproves of anything she considers impractical (though sometimes her definition isn't in line with reality) and Leliana disapproves of anything she considers immoral or anti-Chantry. Hardened Leliana disapproves less and can be talked down and Morrigan has plenty of opportunities to be talked out of approval loss (when you meet Wynne at the Tower, for instance).

Well said.

Morrigan explains her views and moral values if you bother taking the time to actually talk to her and keep an open mind.
In fact, considering how much aproval you can get during her conversations at camp, if you pick the correct dialogue options, any aproval loss you suffer for your decisions is practicaly laughable.

And let's not even get into how many Morrigan specific gifts there are in this game. These alone can practically max out her aproval.

All truth and very good points. They can both be real easy to get disapproval from, it just matters on the way you play the game. Morrigan is just as easy to lose approval from as any other character and due to her abundant amount of gifts it is rediculously easy to gain back. And I like Morrigan's values and her opinions, it makes her unique and likeable as a character, and she is written just as well as Leliana.
 
I admit I do love Leliana, heck she's my fav companion above Shale, Zev and Morrigan, but when people compare Morrigan and Leliana it kind of grates me. They are both different and alike, they both have their advantages and disadvantages, that is what is so loveable and likeable about their characters.

[BHRamsay]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yeah, everyone's tendency to thank the Maker they believe abandoned them and isn't payng attention whenever you do anything is REALLY annoying. And so is Leliana's racism. Honestly, she NEVER realized she treats elves differently than humans or thought of them differently until you point it out? Talk about a severe lack of introspection which she CLAIMED to have spent the last two years doing.

Technically what she was introspecting was her role as a spy who seduced and manipulated those victims that she didn't ruthlessly kill at the beheast of her morally bankrupt mentor.  But yes, calling her on her assumptions is quite fun. ... almost as much fun as the reaction she has if she has been romanced by the CE who then takes her on the slaver-busting mission.

Leiliana: What...you're married?
CE: Well there was a ceremony and all but nothing serious? (paraphrase)

[Chuvvy]

BHRamsay wrote...


Technically what she was introspecting was her role as a spy who seduced and manipulated those victims that she didn't ruthlessly kill at the beheast of her morally bankrupt mentor.  But yes, calling her on her assumptions is quite fun. ... almost as much fun as the reaction she has if she has been romanced by the CE who then takes her on the slaver-busting mission.

Leiliana: What...you're married?
CE: Well there was a ceremony and all but nothing serious? (paraphrase)

That's my main probleme with her she's manipulative and she sleeps with people just so it's easier to kill them. And she dosen't see the problem with that. At least Morrigan is a **** to your face and dosen't try to hide it. I don't like either of them that much, I tend to stay single and try not to get killed. Just stay with the bros,  get Zev some lock pick skills and then I'm fine. I don't have to use either of them.

[asaiasai]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Leliana is probably my favorite party character in the game. She is written well, and it really takes quite a bit to get her to disapprove unlike some amoralistic swamp witch who shall remain nameless. The swamp witch gets all the love because she is written for the teenage fan boys, easy, amoralistic, and generally angst filled,so they can relate, like shooting fish in a barrel. What Leliana wants, Leliana gets, the rest of them can go suck eggs for all i care. Leliana is a character for a more discerning taste, sweet, smooth, absolutely beautyful both inside and outside, the perfect combo. Leliana has class, culture, is more refined in the ways of proper decorum, knows how to act like a lady, but knows how to get the job done.

As has been suggested i like Leliana regardless of the religious affiliation. I think anybody who practices any organized religion is a sucker, but i still love Leliana in spite of it all. To corrupt the newfound innocence, to get a drunk coed to flash for girls gone wild is nothing, get a nun to flash for girls gone wild well that is something.

Asai

Ah yes the classic my character character is awesome and your character is horrible. Then you went insulted the fans of said character. You sir are a grade A douchebag

Thank you, thank you very much, for only proving my point. Now, would you like some cheese with that whine? Sad that some folks seem to lack a certain maturity, that when observations backed by fact are stated someone has to get butt hurt and start name calling. So i submit that you are probably the typical Morrigan fanboy which is worse because at least a douchbag has a purpose.

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 02 mai 2010 - 05:47 .

[Sarah1281]

The swamp witch gets all the love because she is written for the teenage fan boys, easy, amoralistic, and generally angst filled,so they can relate, like shooting fish in a barrel. What Leliana wants, Leliana gets, the rest of them can go suck eggs for all i care. Leliana is a character for a more discerning taste, sweet, smooth, absolutely beautyful both inside and outside, the perfect combo.

Leliana, like all the characters, is highly flawed. Some of these flaws may make her not an attractive romance options for certain players/characters (elves, for instance, may take offense at that particular conversation) and you can't really stereotype everyone who doesn't want to romance Leliana as a Morrigan fanboy. Some might prefer Zevran or Alistair (Leliana herself prefers women) or they might not like any love interest. Even if they are a fan of the Morrigan romance, Morrigan is a lot more high-maintenance with her freaking out upon realizing that she loves you so it can't just be 'oh, she's just meaningless sex and that's hawt.' Some players might prefer Morrigan as you can sleep with her almost immediately, but not all of them will. You say you like Leliana partly because she's sweet and polite and then you go around insulting and belittling anyone who may not share that view? Is this a case of opposites attract or are you just having an off day?

[Raiil]

I happen to like Morrigan a lot, and since I roll girls exclusively, it's obviously not anything to do with sex. Although if she were a romance option for girls, I think I'd knock booties with her at least once.



I dislike Leliana because I don't like religious types, and find her conversations to be inane and about things I don't care about- I hate talking about clothing/shoes and my hair, and despite the fact we share many similiar opinions- on the Maker, on freeing the werewolves of their curse, etc, I just avoid her as soon as I can do her personal quest and harden her. She may be sugar and sweet, but that doesn't stop me from finding her personality off-putting. She strikes me as being far too emotionally high-maintenance for me to deal with.

[Apophis2412]

As a bard Leliana was trained to hide her true emotions behind a facade. In essence she could pretend to be any women a man desired. What I find interesting is that even during the Darkspawn crisis she is still using these same skills. In my opinion she is trying to hide her own insecurities about what kind of person she is, behind a facade of sweet girlyness.

[BHRamsay]

That's my main problem with her. She's manipulative and she sleeps with people just so it's easier to kill them. And she dosen't see the problem with that. At least Morrigan is a **** to your face and dosen't try to hide it. I don't like either of them that much, I tend to stay single and try not to get killed. Just stay with the bros,  get Zev some lock pick skills and then I'm fine. I don't have to use either of them.

Not to be a fussy gussy but Lilliana has loads of problems with her past but that is exactly what her seducing and manipulating is...in the past. She will, at the right approvel, confess to enjoying --  Le Vida Loca -- But like almost everyone else, she is traveling with the Warden inorder to achieve somekind of redemtption and atonement for her psat. How successful she is at that endevour is up to you.

[Raiil]

BHRamsay wrote...

That's my main problem with her. She's manipulative and she sleeps with people just so it's easier to kill them. And she dosen't see the problem with that. At least Morrigan is a **** to your face and dosen't try to hide it. I don't like either of them that much, I tend to stay single and try not to get killed. Just stay with the bros,  get Zev some lock pick skills and then I'm fine. I don't have to use either of them.

Not to be a fussy gussy but Lilliana has loads of problems with her past but that is exactly what her seducing and manipulating is...in the past. She will, at the right approvel, confess to enjoying --  Le Vida Loca -- But like almost everyone else, she is traveling with the Warden inorder to achieve somekind of redemtption and atonement for her psat. How successful she is at that endevour is up to you.

That's assuming she told you the truth about wanting to join you. I don't doubt her commitment to the Maker, but it seems to me that it's not just about saving the world.

[Liquidcz]

Valentia X wrote...
That's assuming she told you the truth about wanting to join you. I don't doubt her commitment to the Maker, but it seems to me that it's not just about saving the world.

There's no reason to assume otherwise.

[devilsgrin]

Aisynia wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Aisynia wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Only "bad" thing about her is her irrational faith in a lie (the Maker), but compared to Morrigan´s, Alistair´s and even Zevran´s faults that´s nothing

You don't know it's a lie, no one does, either in the game, or the real world. There's no way to prove it either way, so pronouncing that you are right no matter what is sort of arrogant. Leliana at least admits "maybe I am wrong".

That's where faith is separated from gullibility, as Shale put it. It cannot be explained or understood by those without it I suppose, but it's sort of backwards to pretend you are right no matter what and that you have all the answers when you are pointing the finger at faith for what you see as the same trespasses.

If the Maker exists, he is an ass, or why did he abandon humanity, let his wife Andraste get burned etc...?

And remember, the Black City is conquered by the tevinter mages. A god who lets his home be conquered by humans can´t have much power. And he doesn´t even have his own heaven, only a part of the fade like every higher demon.

I think I see what you mean. Even Leli doesn't believe the maker abandoned the world, though she does believe he exists.

The Tevinter didn't conquer the black city, they trespassed where they didn't belong. According to Chantry teachings (emphasis on that), the city wasn't conquered, but abandoned, and the trespassers were cast out, quite easily, and cursed. What really happened there is up for debate, but to conquer a place, you need to stay there as an occupying precense. Whatever happened, whyever they were cast out and by whom, they certainly conquered nothing.

Their hubris led them to their own demise.

The Chantry says that the Maker essentially left in exasperation. If mortals were that intent on making their own fate that they would trespass in heaven, then they obviously didn't need him.

Pretty harsh, yeah I agree, and Leli doesn't seem to believe that an all knowing all powerful all loving deity would be that careless. So no, she doesn't really "believe the lie" in the way you are saying.

It's funny, because Leliana has a more simple and beautiful faith in the Maker, while Wynne is a cold skeptic.. and yet Wynne turns out to be more pious towards the Chantry. That's why a hardened Leliana can be talked out of her attack at the ashes, while Wynne will go crazy and attack no matter what. As much as I like her, Wynne is ultimately the bigger hypocrite.

Anyways, I'm tired, I only got half a night's sleep due to nightmares, so I', not even sure how much sense I am making. I'm gonna get off this subject for now.

I will just leave with this closing comment: Even though she won't "shut up about it" as some people like to say, Leliana never, ever tries to force others to believe the same way she does. She's willing to accept other points of view. I appreciate that quality.

how is Wynne a hypocrite for having her faith rest mostly with the living, breathing, actively participating Chantry rather than the evidently cold and distant Maker itself?
Leliana's faith may be more "beautiful", but as the Guardian points out, that faith is her own Hubris. Her wanting to stand out from the rest of the devout of Andraste's cult. She may be willing to accept anothers view, but unlike Wynne who you often gain approval from for arguing with her, Leliana gives you none, or you lose approval when you challenge her faith.
Wynne's faith, while it is indeed more skeptical, is also a faith honed over many more years than Leliana's. She seen more of the world and experienced more of the world than even Leliana... although in a significantly less deceiptful envronment than the noble courts of Orlais. (there are many tidbits about Wynne being far more than just a cloistered mage in the circle tower).
Wynne's skepticism is entirely believable, but in no way diminishes her faith. It in fact is its strength. Those who blindly follow have no True Faith, they believe all they are told without thinking about it. The fact that Wynne examines her faith, challenges its teachings (with others or within only her own mind) and develops a better understanding of both the Chantry and The Maker - or at least what the Chantry believe about the Maker.
Wynne clearly isn't convinced that the Chantry speaks the truth regarding Tevinter or Mages, she is old enough and wise enough to see through such self-serving propaganda, and yet she does not Know it to be untrue, so leaves it open).

Modifié par devilsgrin, 02 mai 2010 - 10:46 .

[Creature 1]

asaiasai wrote...
To corrupt the newfound innocence, to get a drunk coed to flash for girls gone wild is nothing, get a nun to flash for girls gone wild well that is something.

Lel's not a nun, she's way more sexually experienced than Morrigan, as well as more experienced in murder and even torture. 

[ejoslin]

Creature 1 wrote...

asaiasai wrote...
To corrupt the newfound innocence, to get a drunk coed to flash for girls gone wild is nothing, get a nun to flash for girls gone wild well that is something.

Lel's not a nun, she's way more sexually experienced than Morrigan, as well as more experienced in murder and even torture. 

But be fair.  She preferred seduction, and becoming the woman a man wanted her to be, to torture.  She only used torture when seduction didn't work.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mai 2010 - 02:02 .

[snapper.fishes]

She scares me... I don't like the way in which she talks. Something just feels... off about her.

[Dokarqt]

Slidell505 wrote...

That's my main probleme with her she's manipulative and she sleeps with people just so it's easier to kill them. And she dosen't see the problem with that. At least Morrigan is a **** to your face and dosen't try to hide it. I don't like either of them that much, I tend to stay single and try not to get killed. Just stay with the bros,  get Zev some lock pick skills and then I'm fine. I don't have to use either of them.

This. Atleast morrigan is sort of up front about herself and her motivations.

Leliana doesn't seem to see anything wrong or remotely disagreeable with her actions. In that respect Leliana creeps me out, its like the whole being sweet thing is just an adopted persona.
What was her time of the chantry for if she doesn't regret her previous actions? Trying to knock boots with the local nuns for the challenge?

Modifié par Dokarqt, 02 mai 2010 - 05:09 .

[CybAnt1]

I think she's still deciding for herself how much she regrets her previous life.



And you have the choice (through "hardening" and her personal quest) to complete her rejection of her previous life, or to cause her to re-embrace it again. You're the variable in the equation.



Of course, even if she fully commits to her new life with the Chantry & doing the Maker's bidding in saving the world with you, she still has all the skills of her old life (murder, lockpicking, theft, and manipulation through song) to apply to the problem.



I happen to think the "new" Leliana is not all "fronting". BTW, I think she was born sweet, and Marjolaine had to teach her to be nasty & manipulative, much like Zevran wasn't a "natural born killer" either. Like I said, I think she wants to forget. You help her decide whether or not to. I always choose to help her forget. And she keeps the skills anyway....

[Liquidcz]

Dokarqt wrote...
This. Atleast morrigan is sort of up front about herself and her motivations.

Yes. I was amazed when she told me she's after the godchild the very first time we talked in the camp. I really appreciate she didn't keep it secret until the very end.

[Raiil]

Liquidcz wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
That's assuming she told you the truth about wanting to join you. I don't doubt her commitment to the Maker, but it seems to me that it's not just about saving the world.

There's no reason to assume otherwise.

Actually, there is. If the Guardian is telling the truth- and there seems to be no reason why he's not, seeing how he's able to get in everyone's skin- then Leliana lied and made up the vision for attention. 

[Liquidcz]

Valentia X wrote...

Liquidcz wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
That's assuming she told you the truth about wanting to join you. I don't doubt her commitment to the Maker, but it seems to me that it's not just about saving the world.

There's no reason to assume otherwise.

Actually, there is. If the Guardian is telling the truth- and there seems to be no reason why he's not, seeing how he's able to get in everyone's skin- then Leliana lied and made up the vision for attention. 

1) Even if she made up the vision, that doesn't change the fact she joins you to save the world from the Blight. You could theoretically say that she sought your company to protect her from Marjolaine or something, but there's no evidence for that except "I think it is so.". For all we know, it could be just a strange dream, and not a "vision" at all.

2) He doesn't say she made up the vision, he only says she enjoyed the attention it gave her. From that she concludes he probably thinks she made it up.

Modifié par Liquidcz, 02 mai 2010 - 07:56 .

[Raiil]

Liquidcz wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Liquidcz wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
That's assuming she told you the truth about wanting to join you. I don't doubt her commitment to the Maker, but it seems to me that it's not just about saving the world.

There's no reason to assume otherwise.

Actually, there is. If the Guardian is telling the truth- and there seems to be no reason why he's not, seeing how he's able to get in everyone's skin- then Leliana lied and made up the vision for attention. 

1) Even if she made up the vision, that doesn't change the fact she joins you to save the world from the Blight. You could theoretically say that she sought your company to protect her from Marjolaine or something, but there's no evidence for that except "I think it is so.". For all we know, it could be just a strange dream, and not a "vision" at all.

2) He doesn't say she made up the vision, he only says she enjoyed the attention it gave her. From that she concludes he probably thinks she made it up.

It could be that, but he flat out says that she enjoyed the attention and that the Maker only speaks to Andraste. Yes, she joins you, but if you set her on the path to becoming hardened, she also admits that there's a thought that 'floats' in her head that she lies about the Chantry giving her peace, and that she loved the excitement of being a bard. She's devout, but not quite as much as she wants to be.

[Aisynia]

Valentia X wrote...

Liquidcz wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Liquidcz wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
That's assuming she told you the truth about wanting to join you. I don't doubt her commitment to the Maker, but it seems to me that it's not just about saving the world.

There's no reason to assume otherwise.

Actually, there is. If the Guardian is telling the truth- and there seems to be no reason why he's not, seeing how he's able to get in everyone's skin- then Leliana lied and made up the vision for attention. 

1) Even if she made up the vision, that doesn't change the fact she joins you to save the world from the Blight. You could theoretically say that she sought your company to protect her from Marjolaine or something, but there's no evidence for that except "I think it is so.". For all we know, it could be just a strange dream, and not a "vision" at all.

2) He doesn't say she made up the vision, he only says she enjoyed the attention it gave her. From that she concludes he probably thinks she made it up.

It could be that, but he flat out says that she enjoyed the attention and that the Maker only speaks to Andraste. Yes, she joins you, but if you set her on the path to becoming hardened, she also admits that there's a thought that 'floats' in her head that she lies about the Chantry giving her peace, and that she loved the excitement of being a bard. She's devout, but not quite as much as she wants to be.

Perspective of the Guardian must also be taken into account. The Guardian is a spirit that can see into your mind, but it isn't without personal opinion, one strongly colored by its origin as a guardian of Andraste herself.

Leliana, in the epilogue, is extremely honest with you, basically saying, yes, she believes it was a vision, but she doesn't know whether it was ultimately from the maker or not.. and that on top of that, it doesn't matter, she's just happy that whatever it was, it drove her to do the right thing.

I think in her heart, Leliana honestly believes what she saw, and that it was real and it mattered to her. She DID have the dream. She DID see the rose (and apparently Alistair picked it lol). How she interpreted those things doesn't make her a liar if she didn't go out of her way to commit an intentional falsehood -- and I don't think she did. Misinterpretation of random events taken as a vision? That's a definite possibility, one she seems to accept near the end. Leliana is a person strong in her convictions, but not blind to her faults and weaknesses, which is a big reason I like her so much.

Back to how this relates to the Guardian: The Guardian is a spirit that is there to test the faith and personal convictions of people who wish to enter the gauntlet. His entire PURPOSE is to make someone uncomfortable, to make them question their beliefs, and to test them as solidly as he can. Morrigan refuses, which he accepts, while he sees that Shale is already being tested by her existence more than any test he could administer.

When it came to Leliana, he questioned and even ridiculed one of her core beliefs. That was the ENTIRE POINT. I also have a sneaking suspicion that as the guardian of Andraste herself, the Guardian may have been somewhat offended, just like those religious folk Leliana mentions when you speak to her.

Every time the Guardian talks to ANYONE, he questions and prods at either a core belief or a really unpleasant memory, his entire purpose being to do just that... so I'm not so sure I would read too far into his statements. He questioned the vision, but didn't tell her outright she was lying (she had to decide that). A lot of his focus also was on how people around her reacted.. her motives for TELLING them what she saw, not whether she saw it. I would pay closer attention to her responses, as even if she did revel in the attention, I think she was still being as true and genuine to herself as she could be, and that she believed, at the time, in what she saw.

Modifié par Aisynia, 02 mai 2010 - 09:18 .