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[Raiil]

He may be making them uncomfortable, but he's not lying. He is spot on with everyone else, and there's nothing with Leliana to suggest anything different. She reveled in the attention of being different, and says that the Maker sent her a vision- spoke to her, personally, essentially- when according to what passes for common sense in that world, the Maker speaks to no one. The Guardian is able to 'see' a person's secrets, as it were, and since he doesn't tell falsehoods or mince/play with words with any other characters, the questions towards Leliana should not be held to a different standard.



The Guardian's purpose is to prime people for the Gauntlet. He himself says that it is not his place to judge whether someone is worthy of the Ashes, so he himself can only pass personal judgement, which clearly is not enough to make him prevent even someone he thinks might be blasphemous from entering the Gauntlet. He is asking an honest question, and she gets so pissed off so quickly that it makes me believe that how much stock she really puts in her so-called vision.

[Tinxa]

I liked Leliana because of her cheery attitude. She just chatted with your character casually like friends do... about shoes and hair and romances. I feared she would be over the top with the visions and the religion, when she joined, bothering you constantly with andraste's teachings, but she turned out to be a very endearing character.

[Liquidcz]

Valentia X wrote...

He may be making them uncomfortable, but he's not lying. He is spot on with everyone else, and there's nothing with Leliana to suggest anything different. She reveled in the attention of being different, and says that the Maker sent her a vision- spoke to her, personally, essentially- when according to what passes for common sense in that world, the Maker speaks to no one. The Guardian is able to 'see' a person's secrets, as it were, and since he doesn't tell falsehoods or mince/play with words with any other characters, the questions towards Leliana should not be held to a different standard.

Still, he never says "You made up your vision.". And Leliana never says that the Maker actually spoke to her, certainly not in the way he spoke to Andraste. She says "it was as if the Maker stretched out his hand to say ..." She simply wants the dream to be a vision from the Maker.

What "passes for common sense" is totally irrelevant. It's the same as with the God in real life ... no one has evidence he exists and no one has evidence he doesn't exist. Just because the Maker doesn't speak to the Chantry doesn't mean he can't speak to someone he deems worthy.

[Aisynia]

Valentia X wrote...

He may be making them uncomfortable, but he's not lying. He is spot on with everyone else, and there's nothing with Leliana to suggest anything different. She reveled in the attention of being different, and says that the Maker sent her a vision- spoke to her, personally, essentially- when according to what passes for common sense in that world, the Maker speaks to no one. The Guardian is able to 'see' a person's secrets, as it were, and since he doesn't tell falsehoods or mince/play with words with any other characters, the questions towards Leliana should not be held to a different standard.

Where the **** did I say I was holding it to a different standard? I did not deny that he was correct in the fact that Leliana reveled in the attention, hell, I don't recall that she did either.

The Guardian's purpose is to prime people for the Gauntlet. He himself says that it is not his place to judge whether someone is worthy of the Ashes, so he himself can only pass personal judgement, which clearly is not enough to make him prevent even someone he thinks might be blasphemous from entering the Gauntlet. He is asking an honest question, and she gets so pissed off so quickly that it makes me believe that how much stock she really puts in her so-called vision.

Most people get pissed off when you call them a liar about something they believe on a deeply personal level. Let's not forget that this isn't the first time she's been prodded or ridiculed for it, as it happened when she was in the chantry.

I do not think she was EVER lying to herself or others, I think that's plainly clear in everything she says. Whether she misinterpreted events or not is up for debate. I am not defending her vision as genuine, I am saying "I believe she believes it", just like you can tell Alistair. I don't think she was ever disingenuous about it. Reveling in the attention it brought her does not automatically mean she's a liar.

He was pushing her buttons, and we can't all react calmly to that. Her getting pissed off isn't an admission that she's lying, it's just a sign that she's having her buttons pushed and doesn't appreciate it.

Modifié par Aisynia, 02 mai 2010 - 10:59 .

[sylvanaerie]

Aisynia wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

He may be making them uncomfortable, but he's not lying. He is spot on with everyone else, and there's nothing with Leliana to suggest anything different. She reveled in the attention of being different, and says that the Maker sent her a vision- spoke to her, personally, essentially- when according to what passes for common sense in that world, the Maker speaks to no one. The Guardian is able to 'see' a person's secrets, as it were, and since he doesn't tell falsehoods or mince/play with words with any other characters, the questions towards Leliana should not be held to a different standard.

Where the **** did I say I was holding it to a different standard? I did not deny that he was correct in the fact that Leliana reveled in the attention, hell, I don't recall that she did either.

The Guardian's purpose is to prime people for the Gauntlet. He himself says that it is not his place to judge whether someone is worthy of the Ashes, so he himself can only pass personal judgement, which clearly is not enough to make him prevent even someone he thinks might be blasphemous from entering the Gauntlet. He is asking an honest question, and she gets so pissed off so quickly that it makes me believe that how much stock she really puts in her so-called vision.

Most people get pissed off when you call them a liar about something they believe on a deeply personal level. Let's not forget that this isn't the first time she's been prodded or ridiculed for it, as it happened when she was in the chantry.

I do not think she was EVER lying to herself or others, I think that's plainly clear in everything she says. Whether she misinterpreted events or not is up for debate. I am not defending her vision as genuine, I am saying "I believe she believes it", just like you can tell Alistair. I don't think she was ever disingenuous about it. Reveling in the attention it brought her does not automatically mean she's a liar.

He was pushing her buttons, and we can't all react calmly to that. Her getting pissed off isn't an admission that she's lying, it's just a sign that she's having her buttons pushed and doesn't appreciate it.

I think ultimately thats ALL the Guardian IS doing is pushing buttons, trying to see how you respond.  (The PC can give one of three responses to his question after all.  Guilty/notGuilty/ and STFU I will not play your game).  I think its not his assessment of motives or guilt or anything I think its more intended to get the questioned one to think about themselves a little more.  The entire Gauntlet has a "introspective" feel to the tests, designed to bare your soul and make you think about things more closely.

BTW I typically take the STFU option when he asks what I felt about whomever got hurt in the Origin story.  The responses from your companions is pretty funny (to me).

[Selej]

Aww so its pc only?

Tirigon wrote...

Selej wrote...

So I have to ask...what armor is your pc wearing?? It looks like a mix of Hirol's armor from awakening and duty.

Looks like Grey Warden Runic armor. (dl at Dragonageneexus)

[sylvanaerie]

Selej wrote...

Aww so its pc only?

Tirigon wrote...

Selej wrote...

So I have to ask...what armor is your pc wearing?? It looks like a mix of Hirol's armor from awakening and duty.

Looks like Grey Warden Runic armor. (dl at Dragonageneexus)

Yea...and to make you feel really bad because I am evil that way...its really nice armor too...

[Sarah1281]

BTW I typically take the STFU option when he asks what I felt about whomever got hurt in the Origin story. The responses from your companions is pretty funny (to me).

Unless it's Wynn's response. 'Oh, why won't you answer a simple question? I think your silence says more than your words ever could'. Simple? How is that simple? She fails at the gauntlet. And he only asks her about her platitudes! Why not ask about Anerin?!?!



And I like the STFU response myself, but then you don't get Reflection.

[sylvanaerie]

Yea but I don't need reflection and by that point my bags are pretty full. I much prefer the encounter with Bryce if I choose the STFU option. "The Maker knows the anger in your heart you try to hide" (or something along those lines). It fits my stoic Cousland to a tee.

[Aisynia]

What I pick depends on which character I am playing. For instance, Dwarf Commoner.. it's either "STFU" or "no I didn't fail them". He's assuming you left them in poverty.. they are living in the damned palace!



However.. Kaylee does feel like she failed Shianni.



But yeah, that was what I was saying, the entire point to what the Guardian is saying to ANYONE is to push them out of their comfort zone and make them think about themselves.



Morrigan refuses, and he can't test Shale any more than she's already being tested, otherwise, he prods at everyone.



I agree that his question to Wynne was weaksauce x1000.



I just wish he didn't ignore dog, that was an opportunity for incredible cuteness and heartwarming that was sorely missed. The dog is a highly intelligent creature who is participating in the gauntlet as much as anyone, why not see if he feels bad about letting his old master die?

[Sarah1281]

The dog is a highly intelligent creature who is participating in the gauntlet as much as anyone, why not see if he feels bad about letting his old master die?

That only works for non-HN. Although maybe he could see if he also felt he failed the Couslands?

[Aisynia]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The dog is a highly intelligent creature who is participating in the gauntlet as much as anyone, why not see if he feels bad about letting his old master die?

That only works for non-HN. Although maybe he could see if he also felt he failed the Couslands?

True, and yeah, why not

Just a pipe dream now, but it had potential.

[CybAnt1]

My conclusion is Leliana had a dream or vision, she's unsure if it really was from the Maker, but she decided it was and to give meaning to it from that perspective. And yes, once she convinced herself of that, she used it to get attention in the Chantry. That is where the Guardian is poking & prodding, as he does with all the other chars.



And incidentally, the current teachings of the Chantry seem to be that the Maker doesn't intervene in the world anymore directly, not that he/it never speaks or communicates to anyone. (AFAIK).

[homedog 100000]

I always kill her at the Urn :)

[The Other One]

Tirigon wrote...

homedog 100000 wrote...

I don't get it. . She has the emotinal maturaty of a five year old. She's also annoying as hell. I simply don't get it. 

• her accent
• she´s hot
  
• she´s one of the most useful partymembers
  
• she has the best dialogue
  
• she´s the only female LI for female PCs, and the only female LI who doesn´t disapprove of everything you do for everyone
  
• she has a fascinating background story

Only "bad" thing about her is her irrational faith in a lie (the Maker), but compared to Morrigan´s, Alistair´s and even Zevran´s faults that´s nothing.

Her endearing lisp

The sound of her ice arrows roaring over my head. And of course the subsequent effect on their target. No other's ice arrows affect me quite the same way.

[facialstrokage]

she just can't help but push my buttons.



Heavy risks...

[Emerald Melios]

The Other One wrote...

Her endearing lisp

The sound of her ice arrows roaring over my head. And of course the
subsequent effect on their target. No other's ice arrows affect me quite
the same way.

The vapor trails?

[Mdfitz]

because shes awesome and like shoes

[Dat Guy]

I find her irritating myself. I usually just let her die in Lothering

[Emerald Melios]

jsr24 wrote...
Morrigan - Flemeth/God Kid
Oghren - Find Branka/Nothing Left might as well
Sten - Pretty much conscripted/Convinced
Zev - Didn't want to die
Wynne - Keeps poking her nose in others' business
Alistair - Grey Warden
Shale - Volunteered kind of

Fixed

[Sarah1281]

Also who is to say those people she assassinated are good people for all we know she could of been killing people like Rendon Howe.

I find it highly unlikely that she only killed complete monsters. She probably would have mentioned it at some point if she were that picky and she pretty much did just whatever Marjolaine told her to.

[Verly]

I like Leliana. I don't really have a problem with any of the companions and like them all to an extent (my least favorite being nosy Wynn) Zev is the only companion that I love the character.



but I like Leliana for a number of reasons she's a mix of sweetness and danger. I compare her more to Zev then I would Morrigan. She and Morrigan are nothing alike except the fact that they are women.



although Zev was bought and sold into the life of an assassin and as far as we know Leliana chose her life as a bard (all we know for sure is that when she was young a kindly older lady raised her after he mother died, but not much about what happened between the the time she became an adult and when she started working for Marjolaine. ) both are known to have seduced (or have the target try to seduce them) and killed their targets and both seem to be at peace with their past to some degree.



I also think it's fun to have a girl to talk to about girly stuff. athough I don't like getting ninjaloved, I still talk to her. ( I've had my second game in a row that I didn't get ninjaloved so maybe I finely know the trick in my game at least)



I have no problem with her faith as IRL I hope others don't have a problem with my faith. I really don't think she talks about the maker as much as some claim she does. (so many other's say "maker's breath" so why is it so annoying to people that she says "maker be praised" (although I'll admit I don't go around shouting "God be praised" like she does) she only talks about the maker in conversation when she explaining her vision and later on when you ASK her to tell you a story about the maker.



I don't think she is lying about her vision, but I believe as I tell Alistair when he asked..I think that SHE believes that her vision is from the maker (It's only when you harden and convince her that she didn't change at all that her beliefs fall apart) That's why only a few of my characters harden her. My characters would feel pretty low to take away what has brought her peace from her past. The only ones that might be a bit different then that are some of my dwarfs and some of my mages (and any characters that are hoping to bring out her naughty side.)



over all I just find her a pleasing companion to talk to. She's also really good in a fight. since I've only destroyed the ashes once (to get the trophy) and didn't have her go with my I've never had her turn against me (but I did get Wynn to leave! yay!)

[Carmen_Willow]

[quote]Master Shiori wrote...

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...


[quote]She is written well, and it really takes quite a bit to get her to disapprove unlike some amoralistic swamp witch who shall remain nameless. [/quote]

Morrigan explains her views and moral values if you bother taking the time to actually talk to her and keep an open mind.

In fact, considering how much aproval you can get during her conversations at camp, if you pick the correct dialogue options, any aproval loss you suffer for your decisions is practicaly laughable.

And let's not even get into how many Morrigan specific gifts there are in this game. These alone can practically max out her aproval.

[/quote]

Which you wouldn't need if the woman weren't so critical of every decision you make......

[Emerald Melios]

Dat Guy wrote...

I find her irritating myself. I usually just let her die in Lothering