325 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

Well we all know it was a spectacular failure.

However, we now know that King Calian actually was going to sell the country down the river.  He was going to wed himself to the Empress of Orlais and pretty much doom Fereldan to once more becoming a tribute paying subsidary of the Empire.  We also know that Loghain actually didn't abandon Calian deliberately, it was because the Darkspawn were overwhelming.  All of Loghain's subsequent evil deeds can be interpreted as him attempting to secure the kingdom in the wake of the monarch's changing.  

Plus, he would have redressed some wrongs like the Chantry's oppression of the Mages.

So what do you think?

[Costin_Razvan]

I do not consider it a rebellion, but rather a tactical choice by a general who simply had no other alternative at the time ( well other then his lead men in a suicidal attack )



It is quite justified.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yay, another Loghain thread. And here I thought a full month can pass without one of those. *sigh*.

Technically, I wouldn't consider it a rebellion. And I believe most of his actions were jsutified, but were leading to failure anyhow.

[Willowhugger]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I do not consider it a rebellion, but rather a tactical choice by a general who simply had no other alternative at the time ( well other then his lead men in a suicidal attack )

It is quite justified.

Well the Rebellion occurs, ironically, against his own daughter.  The real question for me is whether or not he knew anything of Arl Howe's psychotic attack against the Couselands.

If he did, then he had to have been plotting against Calian before the battle.

[KnightofPhoenix]

No, David Gaider said Loghain knew nothing about the Cousland massacre, until Howe had already done the deed and took Highever for himself.

[AnniLau]

Cailan seeking political alliance with Orlais does not equate him either a) selling Fereldan down the river or planning to wed the Empress.



And no, what Loghain did was not justified.

[Caldarin V]

I've been making this argument for a while- Loghain started out with good intentions; he was trying to save Ferelden as best he could with the knowledge of the situation at hand.

Unfortunately, he made a few desperate moves and that sent him down the road to the villain he ended up being.

[Costin_Razvan]

That's a matter of opinion AnniLau.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 avril 2010 - 11:14 .

[Vicious]

Maric made him promise to never risk everything for one man.

That's pretty much what it took to save Cailan. There's no proof he could see the whole battlefield. All he saw was the tower get lit really late. And he decided right then that he wasn't going to lead his men to death to save one man, since Cailan's chunk of the army was mostly dead at that point.

So what he did there? Yep, he actually kept a promise to an old friend. Fair enough.

Everything else? Big screwups. Maybe if we actually SAW people besides Alistair trying to steal the throne from Anora, it would make more sense. But we didn't, so it didn't.


Lastly, for a 'complex' character, he got the most hamfisted fcharacterization I've ever seen in a Bioware villain since Darth Malak.

"YES CAILAN... A GLORIOUS DAY FOR US ALL... MUAHAHAHAHAHA!" *twirls evil moustache.*

And we're supposed to believe he is a complex character from that? DaveG's comments aside, IMO really screwed up that storytelling right there. He was clearly a villain until and unless you recruited him, and he basically went from evil mastermind to tragic hero.

Bleh.

Modifié par Vicious, 30 avril 2010 - 11:16 .

[AnniLau]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

That's a matter of opinion AnniLau.

Yes. You gave yours, I gave mine.

What's your point?

[Willowhugger]

Well I don't know if there's any more Loghain threads. I started one because I just joined.

[phaonica]

I'm pretty new to the game too, so I've missed a lot of the good topics being fresh



try this

http://social.biowar...47/index/583297

[thegreateski]

It may have been justified . . . up until the point he massacred the politically neutral Grey Wardens.

[phaonica]

thegreateski wrote...

It may have been justified . . . up until the point he massacred the politically neutral Grey Wardens.

The Grey Wardens are so "politically neutral" that they don't care one way or another about what happens to Ferelden. They only care about stopping the Blight.

[thegreateski]

phaonica wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

It may have been justified . . . up until the point he massacred the politically neutral Grey Wardens.

The Grey Wardens are so "politically neutral" that they don't care one way or another about what happens to Ferelden. They only care about stopping the Blight.

Uh . . . yeah.

That's what being politically neutral is.

[phaonica]

My point is that Loghain did care about Ferelden, and that he didn't want to let the Grey Wardens or anyone else potentially destroy the country to stop the darkspawn.

[thegreateski]

So instead he kills off the Grey Wardens and lets the Darkspawn destroy the country instead.



Paranoia does strange things to people.

[DrAbysmal]

phaonica wrote...

My point is that Loghain did care about Ferelden, and that he didn't want to let the Grey Wardens or anyone else potentially destroy the country to stop the darkspawn.

The darkspawn will gladly destroy the country if not stopped, Loghain's timing for a civil war is very poor. If he truly retreated because he didn't believe his forces could turn the tide at Ostagar, what makes him think he could defeat an archdemon-led force (that is very obviously going to attack eventually) with a fractured nation and losses incurred with in-fighting?

[phaonica]

There is evidence that he was trying to get support from the same armies that the Grey Wardens were conscripting. In his eyes you are stealing Ferelden's resources to fight your fight, and Ferelden be damned.

[phaonica]

DrAbysmal wrote...

The darkspawn will gladly destroy the country if not stopped, Loghain's timing for a civil war is very poor. If he truly retreated because he didn't believe his forces could turn the tide at Ostagar, what makes him think he could defeat an archdemon-led force (that is very obviously going to attack eventually) with a fractured nation and losses incurred with in-fighting?

Even if he thought his forces couldn't turn the tide at Ostagar, he knew about the Dwarves, Elves, Mages and whatnot just like the Grey Wardens did, and he was trying to get their support after Ostagar. He also didn't belive this was a real blight, because he didn't trust the Wardens.

[thegreateski]

Ash Williams does your awesomeness know no bounds?

[DrAbysmal]

He was trying to get support, but his efforts were largely failing because of his treachery. Irving withdrew the Circle's support for him once they learned of what happened, leading to Uldred's betrayal. Loghain's toady was trying to get into Orzammar for days with no success. The wardens walk up and are immediately admitted. There's no evidence he tried to reach out to the elves, who are notoriously wary of humans anyway.



Not to mention, you catch more flies with honey. As evidenced by Orzammar, Loghain's strategy to get aid is to walk up and demand that people cooperate. The wardens bring treaties and help with problems to gain loyalty.

[GreatSword127]

Loghain's actions were in no way Justifiable.....though I did like his admission at the end that I kick butt.