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[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...


And you believe everything he tells you? Even if he was right I think the only thing he would have done was to see about the situation with Vaughn and the riots that followed.

You are probably right. But that´s still better than Loghain who sells elves as slaves, wouldn´t you agree?

[Costin_Razvan]

I do, actually. Never said I was too fond of the idea of selling elves into slavery.

P.S. About Anora hate. You do know she is the voice actor for Bella right? 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 mai 2010 - 07:58 .

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I do, actually. Never said I was too fond of the idea of selling elves into slavery.

Then why do you defend Loghain and speak against Cailan?

[Costin_Razvan]

Because while I do not like it, it does not mean I do not agree with it. It had quite a great deal of reason in it. I am pragmatist who lets Shianni get raped so that Vaughn's troops do not put the Alienage to the torch and kill everyone.  Which they do anyway, but when you are making that choice you do not know that. It also goes against every fiber of my being to put someone to death, even a rapist when there is SOME reason to do not so.

I defend Loghain because was not a blind stubborn ignorant who did not even gave a **** about ruling the country he was KING OF. Sure he was ignorant of the Grey Warden's importance in a Blight, but that is a very well kept secret.

Cailan would have married Celene, become Emperor and then let his new wife do ALL the ruling. Can you imagine what would have become of Fereldan?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 mai 2010 - 08:08 .

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Because while I do not like it, it does not mean I do not agree with it. It had quite a great deal of reason in it. I am pragmatist who lets Shianni get raped so that Vaughn's troops do not put the Alienage to the torch and kill everyone.  Which they do anyway, but when you are making that choice you do not know that. It also goes against every fiber of my being to put someone to death, even a rapist when there is SOME reason to do not so.

That´s were we disagree. I think you have to fight injustice where you can. If you have the chance to save someone from rape, you do it. If you have a chance to kill the rapist, you should do that, too.
And if someone enslaves people for his war efforts, he is a criminal who deserves no mercy, no matter if you can understand why he considered it useful or not.

I defend Loghain because was not a blind stubborn ignorant who did not even gave a **** about ruling the country he was KING OF.

I´m not sure about that. To me it seems as if Loghain does surprisingly little to control Howe, for example. Actually, in some cutscenes (for example when Zevran is employed) it even seems as if Howe is the one who makes the decisions.
Also, I don´t consider it important to care for your nation. A ruler has to care for his people. It is better to let the Orlaisians in than to enslave your people.
If they DID conquer the land, then, Loghain could have driven them off again. But I think if you give up your humanity to achieve your goal, it is the worst kind of failure.

Cailan would have married Celene, become Emperor and then let his new wife do ALL the ruling. Can you imagine what would have become of Fereldan?

Actually I can´t because I know very little about Celene. But I have a hard time believing that it would be worse than some of Loghain´s actions. I mean, the only bad thing she could do is enslaving and torturing more people than Loghain did.

[Costin_Razvan]

 

That´s were we disagree. I think you have to fight injustice where you can. If you have the chance to save someone from rape, you do it. If you have a chance to kill the rapist, you should do that, too.

I do not disagree with doing whatever you can to save someone from being raped, I only disagree on killing them. I wish there was an option to simply make Vaughn face justice in another way, but one could argue he get's his rightful punishment by being locked in that cell by Howe. 
Killing people has never solved anything for humanity.

And if someone enslaves people for his war efforts, he is a criminal who deserves no mercy, no matter if you can understand why he considered it useful or not.

 
I believe motive matters. I do not like what Bhelen does to get in power, but I greatly appreciate his motives for doing so for example.

I´m not sure about that. To me it seems as if Loghain does surprisingly little to control Howe, for example. Actually, in some cutscenes (for example when Zevran is employed) it even seems as if Howe is the one who makes the decisions.

I think Loghain sees Howe as a man he needs to do all the dirty work. Much like Bhelen sees Vartag.

 Also, I don´t consider it important to care for your nation. A ruler has to care for his people. It is better to let the Orlaisians in than to enslave your people.
If they DID conquer the land, then, Loghain could have driven them off again. But I think if you give up your humanity to achieve your goal, it is the worst kind of failure.

To care about your people means to know what they are going through, to take an interest in that make laws to better their lives in what little way you can. Cailan did not care about such things.

You also know that saying: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

 Actually I can´t because I know very little about Celene. But I have a hard time believing that it would be worse than some of Loghain´s actions. I mean, the only bad thing she could do is enslaving and torturing more people than Loghain did.

What I know is from the codex. Which paints her as a very effective ruler, much like Anora.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 mai 2010 - 08:30 .

[Willowhugger]

My interpretation of what happened is this.  Loghain was making some sort of move against Arl Eamon, because when I asked.  "Could Loghain be responsible for the Arl's sickness", the knight in the chantry says that the Arl fell sick before the battle at Ostagar.  So either Loghain did attempt to assassinate Cailin or he wanted Arl Eamon removed as an influence from his son-in-law for some reason.
    
But assuming Loghain is telling the truth about what happened at Ostagar, the situation is basically one that rapidly deteroriates because of his lack of political acuem.  He lets Howe call the shots in part because Loghain doesn't really know how to deal with the increasing hatred he gets from the nobility as well as the Warden's growing popularity.

The poisoning of Eamon combined with what he did to the Circle of Magi with Uldred resulted in the nobility, church, and circle turning against him.  That, by itself, is a deathblow to most RL monarchs (not even counting magi).  Howe takes the reign because he's a vicious psychopath who can hire assassins and handle most of the grizzly handiwork.  Ironically, it's Howe who turns his daughter against him.

Really, it must have had the property of a nightmare for Loghain to realize that turning against the Wardens was the PR disaster it was.  Not only does the Warden personally become vastly popular, belying any claims of regicide, but the actuality of the Blight becomes self-evident soon after Loghain's retreat.

[Willowhugger]

Killing people has never solved anything for humanity.

While I, in real life, am a pacifist and am against the death penalty. I think there's a certain level of mitigating circumstance to the fact Dragon Age is a Medieval game. In the context of being Arl of Denerim, Vaughn is a danger to the elves and his own people. Nothing can stop him being the hereditary ruler of the city without removing him from the position.



He's also guilty of mass murder in addition to rape.

[Willowhugger]

Killing people has never solved anything for humanity.

While I, in real life, am a pacifist and am against the death penalty. I think there's a certain level of mitigating circumstance to the fact Dragon Age is a Medieval game. In the context of being Arl of Denerim, Vaughn is a danger to the elves and his own people. Nothing can stop him being the hereditary ruler of the city without removing him from the position.



He's also guilty of mass murder in addition to rape.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 I do not disagree with doing whatever you can to save someone from being raped, I only disagree on killing them. I wish there was an option to simply make Vaughn face justice in another way, but one could argue he get's his rightful punishment by being locked in that cell by Howe.

That would explain to let Vaughan live, but not to let him keep the women and continue with his raping. Even more so as I can´t believe he lets Shianni live if you decide in this way.

Killing people has never solved anything for humanity.

A honorable opinion, even though I personally think SOME people´s death IS good for everyone.


 

I believe motive matters. I do not like what Bhelen does to get in power, but I greatly appreciate his motives for doing so for example.

I agree that motives matter. But they can´t excuse everything. For example, I wouldn´t mind Loghain assassinating nobles who oppose him, because that would be wiser than a civil war. But enslaving people is wrong, no matter your motives.

I think Loghain sees Howe as a man he needs to do all the dirty work. Much like Bhelen sees Vartag.

To care about your people means to know what they are going through, to take an interest in that make laws to better their lives in what little way you can. Cailan did not care about such things.
You also know that saying: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

I prefer good intentions leading to a bad end by failing to bad intentions leading to even more suffering.

What I know is from the codex. Which paints her as a very effective ruler, much like Anora.

Is this bad? Well, it is from my anarchist POV, but not worse than any other ruler.

[phaonica]

Willowhugger wrote...

My interpretation of what happened is this.  Loghain was making some sort of move against Arl Eamon, because when I asked.  "Could Loghain be responsible for the Arl's sickness", the knight in the chantry says that the Arl fell sick before the battle at Ostagar.  So either Loghain did attempt to assassinate Cailin or he wanted Arl Eamon removed as an influence from his son-in-law for some reason.
    
But assuming Loghain is telling the truth about what happened at Ostagar, the situation is basically one that rapidly deteroriates because of his lack of political acuem.  He lets Howe call the shots in part because Loghain doesn't really know how to deal with the increasing hatred he gets from the nobility as well as the Warden's growing popularity.

The poisoning of Eamon combined with what he did to the Circle of Magi with Uldred resulted in the nobility, church, and circle turning against him.  That, by itself, is a deathblow to most RL monarchs (not even counting magi).  Howe takes the reign because he's a vicious psychopath who can hire assassins and handle most of the grizzly handiwork.  Ironically, it's Howe who turns his daughter against him.

Really, it must have had the property of a nightmare for Loghain to realize that turning against the Wardens was the PR disaster it was.  Not only does the Warden personally become vastly popular, belying any claims of regicide, but the actuality of the Blight becomes self-evident soon after Loghain's retreat.

I pretty much agree with this interpretation. I think Loghain thought he could handle what he started and when he rapidly realized that he was in over his head, he kind of panicked and didn't know how to fix it.

[Costin_Razvan]

Even more so as I can´t believe he lets Shianni live if you decide in this way.

I am not surprised he does keep his word if you go down that route. Breaking into his estate and killing his guards certainly has something to do with it.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 mai 2010 - 08:59 .

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Even more so as I can´t believe he lets Shianni live if you decide in this way.

I am not surprised he does keep his word if you go down that route. Breaking into his estate and killing his guards certainly has something to do with it.

It´s a very good reason to take revenge and kill everyone you love. At least that´s what I would do if I was such an ass as he is:devil:

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

Is this bad? Well, it is from my anarchist POV, but not worse than any other ruler.

Okay, I can see how someone with an anarchist POV would have absolutely no interest in maintaining the country. Fair enough.

[Costin_Razvan]

Is this bad? Well, it is from my anarchist POV, but not worse than any other ruler.

Not bad for Orlais, if that is what you mean. However had she and Cailan married then things would be very bad for Fereldan.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...


Not bad for Orlais, if that is what you mean. However had she and Cailan married then things would be very bad for Fereldan.

And why? If she can rule Orlais well, she could rule Ferelden well, too. And Cailan would make sure she doesn´t become too cruel.

[Costin_Razvan]

Because she would see the Fereldans as tools to be used for her own purposes, and would not care so much about them.



Loghain is right when he says: "Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someones else's reasons."

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

And why? If she can rule Orlais well, she could rule Ferelden well, too. And Cailan would make sure she doesn´t become too cruel.

Except that  Ferelden wouldn't be Ferelden anymore, it would be Orlais. And if Ferelden wanted to be part of Orlais, it wouldn't have fought them away in the first place. And you put a whole lot more faith in Cailan's leadership skills than anyone in the game did.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

And you put a whole lot more faith in Cailan's leadership skills than anyone in the game did.

Yes I do. I suppose it is because I´m a City Elf atm, and Cailan + Duncan are the only non-Companion humans she doesn´t hate.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

Yes I do. I suppose it is because I´m a City Elf atm, and Cailan + Duncan are the only non-Companion humans she doesn´t hate.

I don't remember Duncan helping the City Elf in the origin story, and he knew very well what was going on there.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...


I don't remember Duncan helping the City Elf in the origin story, and he knew very well what was going on there.

True, but he saved my PC from the Guards who came to arrest her, that´s a reason to like him. And she actually enjoys being a Warden and fighting and all.

[Willowhugger]

And why? If she can rule Orlais well, she could rule Ferelden well, too. And Cailan would make sure she doesn´t become too cruel.

I'm afraid I find this view very confusing.  How would Calian hold her in check if he's in Orlais?  Presumably, as Emperor, he would live there.  Also, he simply would not have the political influence to hold her in check.  Finally, why would she rule well?  In countless historical examples, conquering states do not traditionally make any attempt to rule their domiciles well but attempt to exploit them.

Tribalism and the nationalist impulse almost invariably make these sorts of relationships and exploitive.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

True, but he saved my PC from the Guards who came to arrest her, that´s a reason to like him. And she actually enjoys being a Warden and fighting and all.

So the fact that he doesn't give a **** about the elves is acceptable?

[Willowhugger]

So the fact that he doesn't give a **** about the elves is acceptable?

Why should he?  He doesn't give a **** about anyone in Felderan.  He works to achieve the Blight's destruction and makes no apologies that it's his only concern.  In terms of a ruthlessly pragmatic POV, he can't afford to alienate anyone in order to have the support to save the world.

[phaonica]

Willowhugger wrote...

Why should he?  He doesn't give a **** about anyone in Felderan.  He works to achieve the Blight's destruction and makes no apologies that it's his only concern.  In terms of a ruthlessly pragmatic POV, he can't afford to alienate anyone in order to have the support to save the world.

Oh I agree with you. I just don't understand the sentiment that anyone who neglects the elves is heartless and incompetent, except when Duncan does it, that's okay.