325 réponses à ce sujet

[shedevil3001]

but obviously duncan did care about the elves as if you talk to valandrian after you save him he tells you him and duncan are old friends and that duncan visits the alienage often

[Raiil]

I would argue that Duncan cares a great deal for people, period, considering how hellbent he is on saving the world from the Blight.





Duncan helps as he can- he had no reason to help save the CE- but it's a matter of the forest for the trees. He can't risk the world by getting the Wardens banned because of one jackass noble pitching a fit.

[shedevil3001]

actually just to point something out, when the ce first gets captured by vaughn duncan didn't have to help us escape by sending neleros and soris with weapons he knew we could handle ourselves but he chose to help so he's not all bad

[phaonica]

shedevil3001 wrote...

but obviously duncan did care about the elves as if you talk to valandrian after you save him he tells you him and duncan are old friends and that duncan visits the alienage often

I haven't played the City Elf origin in a while, so I don't remember it *very* well. But can't you go to Duncan and say "All the women were taken from the party! It is *extremely* likely that they were taken to be raped. Will you help me save them? " And he says he can't get involved because of politics. So this may not be okay behavoir to Duncan, and he may care about the elves, but apparently not enough to risk his political position. I'll go play the City Elf origin again to check, and if i'm wrong, I'll happily rescind.

[attend]

How did Duncan actually help?  He loans a sword, but does not take an active role.  He knows if the city elf succeeds what the consequences will be.  He is there to find gray wardens.  I see it as his way of testing the PC's skills and resolve while ensuring he gets a new warden.

Same with the human noble.  He does not help the PC to escape unless daddy Cousland vows his child will join the gray wardens.  What a great guy, but this thread is not about him.
Loghain is worse.  He betrays his best friend's child because he might be in a relationship with the empress.    No one does that to his little girl. Much of his anger seems to be personally motivated and covered up by his beliefs.  Look at his actions.

Arl Eamon suggest Cailan dump Arnora and he is poisoned.   Not a quick acting regent to get him out of the way.  Nope, it is slow and painful.

The plan at Ostagar is Loghain's.  He refuses to allow Orlesian's warriors to come.  Eamon is poisoned before the battle to ensure he is not there to provide support.  The tower is closed from anyone but Loghain's men before the battle and he suggest his own men light the signal.  He made sure Cailan would not have the numbers he would need to win and played off his arrogance to make sure he would be in the front lines.  Normally that would be Loghain's position.

How many died or suffered because of Loghain's actions?  What possible justification can there be for the women who were hauled off to be broodmothers?  The men who were eaten?  The elves that lost what little rights and freedoms they had?  The people at Redcliffe who died or watched their loved ones torn apart?  The templars and mages who were tortured and killed?  All the people who died in Lothering and Denermin because the horde was not stopped at Ostagar?   

Modifié par attend, 02 mai 2010 - 11:25 .

[Willowhugger]

A couple of points here.

Loghain is worse.  He betrays his best friend's child because
he might be in a relationship with the empress.    No one does
that to his little girl. Much of his anger seems to be personally
motivated and covered up by his beliefs.  Look at his actions.

Loghain
didn't actually know about Calian's plans with Celene.  He goes ballistic in Return to Ostagar when he finds
out.

Arl Eamon suggest Calihan dump Arnora and he is poisoned.   Not a
quick acting regent to get him out of the way.  Nope, it is slow and
painful

Eamon wasn't supposed to die, but he only stayed alive due to Conner making a deal with the Desire Demon.

[attend]

Willowhugger



Eamon suffered for days before the knights were even sent out and that was before Conner made the deal.



I admit to not even being able to stand Loghain enough to have played him thru Return to Ostagar. He still betrays Cailan and it was stated they argued many times before the battle over the queen. I made an assumption I should not have about the empress.

[Willowhugger]

attend wrote...

Willowhugger

Eamon suffered for days before the knights were even sent out and that was before Conner made the deal.
 

True, I think Jowan said that Eamon wasn't supposed to die.  Things just went to pot.

[attend]

...and Loghain would never have lied to him. hmmm?

[Willowhugger]

attend wrote...

...and Loghain would never have lied to him. hmmm?

We only have the information present in the game to go from.

Loghain is fully capable of killing his enemies and does a lot of it.

But it would fit with the idea that if Loghain wanted Eamon dead, he might have chosen a quicker way to do it.

All of his choices backfired spectacularly.

[phaonica]

Willowhugger wrote...

attend wrote...

...and Loghain would never have lied to him. hmmm?

We only have the information present in the game to go from.

Loghain is fully capable of killing his enemies and does a lot of it.

But it would fit with the idea that if Loghain wanted Eamon dead, he might have chosen a quicker way to do it.

All of his choices backfired spectacularly.

Gaider is the one who told us Eamon wasn't supposed to die from the poison. It is metagame information.

[attend]

I'm kind of reminded of Braveheart. Was it legal to take a woman before her marriage and rape her in Scotland in the year (can't remember at the moment)? Yep. Does that make it right? Nope.

Duncan is a trained warrior. One who knows what was done was wrong and he can't be bothered to help? I do not buy it. It is about duty, not about doing what is right. He is not a hero. How does the saying go? For evil to succeed all it takes is for good men to stand aside.

I agree he is still MUCH better than Loghain.

Question:  Where was this metagame information from Gaider?  I missed it completely.  I was basing on information provided in game.  Jowan says Loghain did not intent for him to die.  Loghain also is telling everyone the wardens killed Cailan.  Why would your PC believe Jowan was told the truth?

Modifié par attend, 03 mai 2010 - 12:18 .

[phaonica]

attend wrote...

I'm kind of reminded of Braveheart. Was it legal to take a woman before her marriage and rape her in Scotland in the year (can't remember at the moment)? Yep. Does that make it right? Nope.

Duncan is a trained warrior. One who knows what was done was wrong and he can't be bothered to help? I do not buy it. It is about duty, not about doing what is right. He is not a hero. How does the saying go? For evil to succeed all it takes is for good men to stand aside.

I agree he is still MUCH better than Loghain.

My only point about Duncan was that if someone hates humans and/or nobles because of the way they abuse the alienage elves, or allow the alienage elves to be abused, then it didn't make sense to me for that person to not hate Duncan too. If somehow your duty to Ferelden or you duty to Stopping the Blight causes you to neglect the elves, then your duty be damned.

Modifié par phaonica, 03 mai 2010 - 12:24 .

[phaonica]

Massamies wrote...

That point is just invalid. Duncan gave weapons, and elves infiltrated as servants through servant's entrance since some of them had connections there. Duncan doesn't pass for servant, human male servants are non-existant, especially human male Rivaini servants. You can't expect him to start some one man assault from outside the castle, he gave weapons and could later tell Cailan about Vaughann's behaviour. Selling elves to slavery =/= not doing one man assault from outside to arl's castle. 

But that's not the reason that Duncan says he wont' go. He says he won't go because he doesn't want to get into the politics of it.

[attend]

That is the point is it not? Each person would judge his actions based on what he did, not what he could do for them later. (ie tell Cailan) He would be judged based on their personal beliefs and values. Just as we are judging him now.



Where was he when the girls were taken? Why did he not stop them then? He was the better warrior. He could have rallied the elves at that point before they left with their booty and numbers would have won the day. Of course Duncan is not the topic so forgive my slip.

[phaonica]

attend wrote...

Question:  Where was this metagame information from Gaider?  I missed it completely.  I was basing on information provided in game.  Jowan says Loghain did not intent for him to die.  Loghain also is telling everyone the wardens killed Cailan.  Why would your PC believe Jowan was told the truth?

http://social.biowar...dex/583297&lf=8

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

So the fact that he doesn't give a **** about the elves is acceptable?

Lol he cares for the elves.... Actually Duncan cares for all the minorities, he cares for mages and casteless dwarves too.

I agree he takes the neutrality thing of the Wardens a bit too far, however. Personally I like the way Sophia Dryden acts more than Duncan´s neutrality. But at least he cares, and doesn´t treat elves badly. that´s more than you can say about most Fereldans.

[Tirigon]

Willowhugger wrote...

A couple of points here.

Loghain is worse.  He betrays his best friend's child because
he might be in a relationship with the empress.    No one does
that to his little girl. Much of his anger seems to be personally
motivated and covered up by his beliefs.  Look at his actions.

Loghain
didn't actually know about Calian's plans with Celene.  He goes ballistic in Return to Ostagar when he finds
out.

If he betrays him WITHOUT reason that doesn´t make it better. Only worse, if only.

[phaonica]

Costin_Razvan wrote..



It had quite a great deal of reason in it. I am pragmatist who lets Shianni get raped so that Vaughn's troops do not put the Alienage to the torch and kill everyone.

And Duncan is a pragmatist who would have let Shianni get raped so that he would not have comprimised the neutrality of the Wardens.

Tirigon wrote...



That´s were we disagree. I think you have to fight injustice where you can. If you have the chance to save someone from rape, you do it.

So why does Duncan get a free pass here? Because Stopping the Blight is more important than Saving the Alienage?

[brewmaster]

Yep. Stopping the blight is more important for the leader of the Grey than saving three elven ladies.



By the way you just said it yourself: Duncan has a pragmatic attitude due to his "profession" as a warden. Moreover he doesn't want to get involved in politics/nobility.

[phaonica]

brewmaster wrote...

Yep. Stopping the blight is more important for the leader of the Grey than saving three elven ladies.

By the way you just said it yourself: Duncan has a pragmatic attitude due to his "profession" as a warden. Moreover he doesn't want to get involved in politics/nobility.

Sorry that was kind of rhetorical and baiting. I apologize. My character's position is that stopping the Blight *is* more important than a few people in the alienage, and that saving Ferelden is more important than saving a few more people in the alienage. If the slavers had asked for a different group of people, than a different group of people would have been sacrificed. It's not about the alienage, it's about sacrificing a few to save many, which is a stance that both Duncan and Loghain took.

I think that if you care about Ferelden's sovereignty, Loghain's trying to stop the Orlesians was a more prudent course than Cailan's plan to let them in. I don't think that Cailan didn't care about Ferelden, or that he didn't care about the Blight, but I think that he was too wrapped up in Glory to realize how much additional danger he was putting Ferelden into.

One can argue that Loghain was too wrapped up in Hatred for Orlais to see the additional danger of the Blight. It all comes down to whether you would allow Ferelden to fall in order to stop the Blight. Loghain doesn't care about Orlais, or Antiva, or the Qun, or Tevinter or whatever. If Ferelden falls, the Blight can have all of them. Maybe that's a cruel and narrow position to take, but it's also a survivalist one. The Wardens exist to counterbalance this position, because very few countries are willing to sacrifice their sovereignty to protect the existance of the others.

Modifié par phaonica, 03 mai 2010 - 03:51 .