325 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

The Phalanx was USELESS in the Medieval Era.



However a Pike Formation or a Shield Wall would have fared a lot better.



As for using the elves as troops. Now that would have been a far stretch. The elves have no combat experience, and while you can make them cannon fodder there aren't that many of them to be good at that.



However selling them as slaves results in a lot of gold.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The Phalanx was USELESS in the Medieval Era.

However a Pike Formation or a Shield Wall would have fared a lot better.

The Phalanx and the Pike Wall are nearly the same, and both would have been far better than leaving the fortified position to charge the Darkspawn.

[Willowhugger]

My interpretation of the scene was that King Calian and company were actually lured into a trap. Remember, the Darkspawn are coming from underground, including tunnels under ostagar. It's possible the force could have been 2, 3, or even 10x the size that Calian thought.

[Tirigon]

@Willowhugger: i don´t think so; it seems quite obvious to me that everyone knew the Darkspawn horde is growing and outnumbering the Fereldans.

[Willowhugger]

Yes, but Calian also believed it could be defeated.



I think the horde was much much larger than expected/

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

Ever heard of cannon fodder?
It´s always good to have a few meat shields, especially if the enemy has as many archers as the Darkspawn...

From a moral standpoint, I can see how this might be a better option. From a strategic standpoint, I don't have the personal experience or historical knowledge to argue what the best strategy should have been.

All I can argue is that if I have 10 soldiers, 20 peasants, and only 5 swords (which obviously we would give to the soldiers); replacing 5 peasants with 5 swords seems like it would give the remaining people better odds. Perhaps this completely doesn't work in practice, but it seems like it should.  

Besides, even an untrained peasant can, for example, hold a long pike to form a defense line (especially useful since the Darkspawn strategy in Ostagar consisted mainly of running at maximal speed towards the enemy.)

I was under the impression that both the phalanx and the pike wall required careful maneuvering, physical strength, and battle courage to maintain. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but if I'm not, I don't know if trusting untrained peasants to maintain the wall is such a good idea.

I can't argue battle strategy with you. Even if what Loghain did was dumb in a strategic sense, as well as a moral one, he still didn't cross my line into execution, for the reasons I've already mentioned.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

Besides, even an untrained peasant can, for example, hold a long pike to form a defense line (especially useful since the Darkspawn strategy in Ostagar consisted mainly of running at maximal speed towards the enemy.)

I was under the impression that both the phalanx and the pike wall required careful maneuvering, physical strength, and battle courage to maintain. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but if I'm not, I don't know if trusting untrained peasants to maintain the wall is such a good idea.

That might be true, but William Wallace used a schiltron (what is practically the same, too) to beat the English army, and his army consisted mainly of peasants, too.

So I guess it could work.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

That might be true, but William Wallace used a schiltron (what is practically the same, too) to beat the English army, and his army consisted mainly of peasants, too.

So I guess it could work.

Perhaps it *could* have worked. From what little I know, I would be willing to bet that William Wallace wouldn't have sacrificed any of his peasant fighters for more soldiers, either. But that would be a moral decision, not a strategic one. I'm only arguing against the stance that Loghain's decision "made no sense."

Modifié par phaonica, 04 mai 2010 - 10:34 .

[phaonica]

Massamies wrote...

Somekind of covert-slavery operation in scales of dozens (Shianni says dozens and slavers confirm that they planned to leave soon, before they would get too much attention) to hundreds simply can't be economically essential, or even significant income source compared to other possible income sources.

If Howe and Loghain are seriously having this kind "Hmm.. should we implement 1 sovereign extra docking fee on Denerim, or sell dozens of elves to slavery to fill this budget hole? Elves sounds better" it's more of a sign of mental ilness and bad judgement. There are many tax and tariff options to get that much money and coinage debasement etc.

First of all, you seem to be assuming that whatever Loghain and Howe got in return for the slaves was a pittance. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't; we don't know. Secondly, you seem to be assuming that it was an income source chosen in opposition to other sources instead of in addition to other sources. Thirdly, Howe and Loghain were losing support among the people, and I doubt that the number of people willing to pay greater taxes to him was increasing.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

What made Loggy's descision reprehensible to me was not betrayal of the king or "country", but that his retreat and subsequent descisions cost the lives of many unecessarily. I would have totally approved of him if all he did was whack the king and a few nobles.

[phaonica]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

 I would have totally approved of him if all he did was whack the king and a few nobles.

Maybe that *is* all he thought he had to do. He got rid of Cailan, and took Cailan's most influential supporter out of the picture (Eamon). He was trying to gain people's support instead of just whacking them, and it wasn't working.

[Willowhugger]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

What made Loggy's descision reprehensible to me was not betrayal of the king or "country", but that his retreat and subsequent descisions cost the lives of many unecessarily. I would have totally approved of him if all he did was whack the king and a few nobles.

Well he couldn't defeat the Darkspawn army with the forces he had.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

phaonica wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

 I would have totally approved of him if all he did was whack the king and a few nobles.

Maybe that *is* all he thought he had to do. He got rid of Cailan, and took Cailan's most influential supporter out of the picture (Eamon). He was trying to gain people's support instead of just whacking them, and it wasn't working.

Sadly it wasn't. Remember the scene at Ostagar...from what we get in game, thousands of Fereldens died at Ostagar, and in the civil war after. THAT was Loghain's biggest crime, second to ****** poor execution. He created alot of unecessary and tragic collateral damage.

If he was trying to get everyone's support, people too, he was doing a pretty ****** poor job of it. Inexcusable, given his own background and roots.

He went straight for an extremely visible position of power, underming his daughter, and setting himself up for the role of tyrant. Doing that, he's praticially begging for civil war.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Willowhugger wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

What made Loggy's descision reprehensible to me was not betrayal of the king or "country", but that his retreat and subsequent descisions cost the lives of many unecessarily. I would have totally approved of him if all he did was whack the king and a few nobles.

Well he couldn't defeat the Darkspawn army with the forces he had.

I'm not talking about strictly Ostagar, or the blight. This discussion/question isn't related to ostagar (as far as I'm concerned, that's a whole other tomato) but his before/after plans/execution. Gaider even said he was making plans prior to Ostagar to deal with the Cailan question (not necessarily assasinating him, just planning some sort of confrontation).

Shortsightedness, pride, unchecked paranoia, and mixed priorities were Loghain's ultimate downfall.

[Willowhugger]

Good points.

[Willowhugger]

One thing that bothers me, Loghain is still Regent of the Country.

How exactly has his position eroded so much that even with Howe in control of Denerim, that Arl Eamon can bring the Grey Warden right into the Landsmeet and not have him arrested?  What does Loghain gain from allowing the Warden to walk around willy nilly?

Don't Howe and he know that the Warden is going to crush him once the truth comes out?

[old book]

Willowhugger wrote...

One thing that bothers me, Loghain is still Regent of the Country.

How exactly has his position eroded so much that even with Howe in control of Denerim, that Arl Eamon can bring the Grey Warden right into the Landsmeet and not have him arrested?  What does Loghain gain from allowing the Warden to walk around willy nilly?

Don't Howe and he know that the Warden is going to crush him once the truth comes out?

I wondered about why and how he let the Warden move freely around both Denerim and the Landsmeet myself. In game we're told that the city guards are demoralized and divided ("Howe's men are the worst scum in the city", paraphrased, from the guard who asks for your help in the market district), and Loghain's men do try to arest you when you rescue Anora and (if you don't kill Loghain's second then) block your entry to the Landsmeet. We also know that skirmishes are already being fought in the civil war (the Chantry board quests let you settle one). I'm guessing that Howe and Loghain didn't have enough support to just stop the Landsmeet or openly move against Eamon without actually moving troops into the city, and that Loghain still thought he could win diplomatically. He's ready to turn it into a fight if the Landsmeet goes against him. Maybe he underestimates your party's ability to stand up to his troops if it comes to blows, and over estimates his own chances in a personal duel.

Also, didn't David Gaider say at some point that Loghain realized it was a real blight halfway through the game, and began to lose confidence? Maybe he wasn't fully committed to the tyrants path, and really wanted to "win" diplomatically. He has just as much reason to want a conclusion short of full civil war as Eamon, and he might not have realized how vulnerable Howe's corruption had left him.

[Urazz]

Willowhugger wrote...

One thing that bothers me, Loghain is still Regent of the Country.

How exactly has his position eroded so much that even with Howe in control of Denerim, that Arl Eamon can bring the Grey Warden right into the Landsmeet and not have him arrested?  What does Loghain gain from allowing the Warden to walk around willy nilly?

Don't Howe and he know that the Warden is going to crush him once the truth comes out?

I figured that had to do with the rebellion the other nobles were part of and Loghain and Howe probably sent most of the troops out to put it down so there is a minimal guard presence in Denerim on the streets that is more concerned with keeping order.  I figured the remaining guard captains just said don't mess with the wardens unless they are causing problems.

[Brako Shepard]

After deciding to keep Loghain alive, and then move my character to Awakening. I can safetly say I made the right choice.



His appearence proves once again he is the better man, rather than listening to the spoilt brat that is Alistair.



I can't wait to get the new DLC so I can put a mace through Alistairs sweed.

[nos_astra]

Brako Shepard wrote...
After deciding to keep Loghain alive, and then move my character to Awakening. I can safetly say I made the right choice.
His appearence proves once again he is the better man, rather than listening to the spoilt brat that is Alistair.
I can't wait to get the new DLC so I can put a mace through Alistairs sweed.

My, my, aren't people like you the pinnacle of manliness and maturity.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 mai 2010 - 07:35 .

[Brako Shepard]

klarabella wrote...

[My, my, aren't people like you the pinnacle of manliness and maturity.

hehehe, huh? lol...wait, what?

Oh just shut up and scratch my belly. *kicks leg repeatidly during said scratching*

[nos_astra]

Brako Shepard wrote...
hehehe, huh? lol...wait, what?

Oh just shut up and scratch my belly. *kicks leg repeatidly during said scratching*

*sporfle*

You made my day.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 mai 2010 - 07:52 .

[Xandurpein]

I think that we may always have to agree to disagree on what exactly happened at Ostagar, as we don't really know everything.

From what I have gathered from what David Gaider said, everyone noticed that the Darkspawn army was steadily increasing in size, but that the actual size of the host at the final battle still surprized them.

Was Loghain saving part of his amry from destruction or simply abandonig the King, or even both? I still think there is not enough evidence to support a definitive answer, especially as battles are not just a scientific yes or no, there is always the element of chance beyond the general's control.

I do believe that if it had been Maric and not Cailan, then Loghain would have charged, so in that respect he did betray Cailan, but then again, if it had been Maric, then maybe the battle would never have been fought as Loghain and Maric would have had a better communication.

What is clear to me however is that while Loghain was a good General (it would be foolish to igonre the Codex just because of personal dislike, I think) he was a mediocre politician. He tried to rule Fereldan as a General leads an army, and it failed spctacularily and turned into a civil war.

What makes Loghain's failure as political leader even worse is that he tried to reign in the name of his daughter, who DID have the political skills he lacked. For all his professed admiration of his daughters abilities, he is remarkably blind to the fact that she is a better monarch than him.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 11 mai 2010 - 08:03 .

[Brako Shepard]

Yeah, its a case of 'Just because you know how to defend the people. Doesn't mean you know how to rule them properly'.