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[phaonica]

DrAbysmal wrote...

He was trying to get support, but his efforts were largely failing because of his treachery. Irving withdrew the Circle's support for him once they learned of what happened, leading to Uldred's betrayal. Loghain's toady was trying to get into Orzammar for days with no success. The wardens walk up and are immediately admitted. There's no evidence he tried to reach out to the elves, who are notoriously wary of humans anyway. .

Currently, I agree with this. I think Loghain would have been better off if instead of declaring himself Regent, he had allowed Anora to declare herself Queen. Perhaps the bannorn would have fell into line behind her right away, and perhaps the Elves, Mages, Dwarves and whatnot would have been welcoming to her ambassadors. I think that this could be the decision that could have caused him to lose Ferelden. But I don't think that makes him evil. I think it just means he screwed up. Maybe he shouldn't be Regent, but I don't currently believe he deserves execution.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

His heart started out in the right place, but he ended up becoming what he hated most: brutal Orliesian overlord. His betrayalOstargar tactical decision is highly debatable, but beyond that, I think he, in his mind, thought he was doing the right thing.



He was locked in to his own tactical limitations, past traumas, and other issues.



Mind you, I still usually kill him for his epic fail and short sightedness, and I think he was a fool in many departments. But, I don't think Loghain as necessarily "evil", nor do I hate him. I think he knew how royally he ****ed up, but in the end, was too damned proud to admit he was being a fool, and would only accept this realization if someone beat it into him.

[Bl1nder]

Well the very fact that he was leading the country towards self destruction makes his actions unjustifiable. Had the Warden and Alistair actually died there wouldn't of been anyone to kill the Archdemon, because we all know Loghain would not allow Orlesians of any discription to enter the country

Modifié par Bl1nder, 01 mai 2010 - 04:21 .

[Darthnemesis2]

[phaonica]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Mind you, I still usually kill him for his epic fail and short sightedness, and I think he was a fool in many departments. But, I don't think Loghain as necessarily "evil", nor do I hate him. I think he knew how royally he ****ed up, but in the end, was too damned proud to admit he was being a fool, and would only accept this realization if someone beat it into him.

Well, I'm going to stand by my thoughts that his prideful epic fail may justify removing him as Regent, but not executing him. Once the burden of political power he put upon himself is taken away, I think he has the potential to be a decent person, which is not what I thought of Howe or the Tevinter slaver.

[CalJones]

[phaonica]

Look, some of us are new around here and would rather discuss than read hundreds of pages of threads. Is it better or worse to necro a thread? Either way, just ignore us if you don't like it.

Edit: On second thought, I don't have a Loghain facepalm pic. sexy.

Modifié par phaonica, 01 mai 2010 - 06:45 .

[Highdragonslayer]

Lohgain wouldnt survive against the zerg swarm

[Willowhugger]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

Lohgain wouldnt survive against the zerg swarm

But the Zerg Swarm IS WHAT THE BLIGHT IS ALL ABOUT!

[Costin_Razvan]

Darthnemesis2: Is that idiot Cailan even worth the effort to kill Loghain? let alone actually finding a motive to do it.

[CalJones]

Well, for the record, I tend agree with Skadi (although I let him live in most of my playthroughs, partly out of mercy and partly because I believe someone who was so instrumental in the liberation of a country deserves a second chance).
He did the wrong things for the right reasons. Bear in mind that he wasn't aware of the content of Cailan's correspondance with the Empress, but he knew Cailan was trying to unite Thedas and as far as he was concerned, any overtures toward the Orlesians was tantamount to dealing with the Devil. I have to agree with Loghain in that allowing legions of chevaliers into Fereldan was idiotic, given what they're capable of. Not allowing the other Wardens in, though, was a mistake - though not an obvious one to Loghain. Considering his only exposure to the Wardens was during the events of The Calling, it's completely understandable that he would mistrust them. My understanding was that he outlawed them, not to interfere with the Warden and Alistair, but to stop the Orlesian Wardens crossing the border. (He finds out about the Warden and Alistair via Howe, in the Zevran cutscene).
One can conjecture whether or not the Blight would have been defeated had Cailan survived, but I tend to think his death was a good thing in the light of his letters to the Empress.

Modifié par CalJones, 01 mai 2010 - 08:12 .

[phaonica]

CalJones wrote...

Well, for the record, I tend agree with Skadi (although I let him live in most of my playthroughs, partly out of mercy and partly because I believe someone who was so instrumental in the liberation of a country deserves a second chance).
He did the wrong things for the right reasons. Bear in mind that he wasn't aware of the content of Cailan's correspondance with the Empress, but he knew Cailan was trying to unite Thedas and as far as he was concerned, any overtures toward the Orlesians was tantamount to dealing with the Devil. I have to agree with Loghain in that allowing legions of chevaliers into Fereldan was idiotic, given what they're capable of. Not allowing the other Wardens in, though, was a mistake - though not an obvious one to Loghain. Considering his only exposure to the Wardens was during the events of The Calling, it's completely understandable that he would mistrust them. My understanding was that he outlawed them, not to interfere with the Warden and Alistair, but to stop the Orlesian Wardens crossing the border. (He finds out about the Warden and Alistair via how, in the Zevran cutscene).
One can conjecture whether or not the Blight would have been defeated had Cailan survived, but I tend to think his death was a good thing in the light of his letters to the Empress.

I agree with you. I haven't read any of the books yet (they're in the mail), but neither has my character, and she wouldn't know any of that stuff, so she could imagine that in the past Loghain might have relied on Maric as much as Maric relied on him. To convince people to trust them when they made questionable decisions, and so forth. He got in over his head. I don't think it was pride so much as fear that moved him.

[Miri1984]

I love Loghain discussion threads. They make me happy.



All of his actions are justifiable in my opinion except his decision to sell the alienage elves into slavery. It doesn't mean any of them are right though. I personally disagree with his decisions.



I also think Cailan should have bloody well listened to EVERYONE ELSE who said that fighting at Ostagar was a bad idea without Eamon's men. But Loghain was meant to be his main tactical advisor - why didn't he try to stop Cailan from making such a stupid stand? Cailan wasn't completely idiotic, and he respected Loghain's tactical knowledge and experience, if Loghain had said to him "You are all going to die" he probably would have said "Ok, let's wait a bit then."

[Costin_Razvan]

You think Loghain did not tell him? He did, as did Duncan. Sure not in those words, but similar ones.

P.S. I consider the slavery thing justifiable.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 mai 2010 - 08:01 .

[Miri1984]

He didn't say that in my play through. All he said was "It's too dangerous to go and fight with the grey wardens, Cailan." Which indicates to me that he was quite keen for Cailan not to die, but not particularly fussed about the rest of the army. Also, the strategy for the whole battle was Loghain's.

[phaonica]

I think that Loghain and Cailan had lots of conversations about the battle that we never saw. We know that Cailan accused Loghain of boring him with strategy. And as for Loghain trying to stop Cailan.. well.. "You will remember who is King." If Cailan had survived the battle, there is a very good chance that he would have allowed Orlesian armies into Ferelden, and there is nothing that proves or disproves that they wouldn't have stayed.

[CalJones]

He was fussed about the rest of the army, but not the Wardens. He was going to lose any sleep if they all died...which they did. There's an argument for saying that he planned the retreat because he saw it as an opportunity to get rid of the Wardens, whom he viewed as dangerous. He would rather Cailan had not joined them. I believe his hope was to show Cailan the Wardens were fallible and get him to see sense (or attend to reality, as he puts it) rather than trying to be a storybook hero...but Cailan insisted on going in the Wardens.

Loghain had to make the decision once the beacon was lit (late, as it turns out), decided Cailan wasn't worth sacrificing the rest of the army for and retreated.

All conjecture of course, but it makes a lot of sense.

[Costin_Razvan]

Just because he doesn't say it in front of your character does not mean he didn't say it all. Loghain is the kind of man who values his men dearly, so if he thought the battle unwinnable ( which he did ) then he would first suggest pulling out entirely.

Also, the strategy for the whole battle was Loghain's.

Your point is what? That he is somewhat responsible for Ostagar just because he drew the plans? Cailan had the final say there, and Cailan was a blind moron ( just talk with him as a CE after doing the Origin, if he does not come out as a complete and utter moron then well.. )



An analogy would be to blame Hittler's generals for the massacre in Berlin at the end of WW2, even though they ALL believed it was suicide to try and hold the city they still did, and gave the Russians hell.

[phaonica]

I executed the Tevinter slaver. I had every reason to believe that he would continue to be a slaver if I let him go, and that was not acceptable. Loghain did hire the slavers, he saw it as a form of "sacrifice a few to save many". He didn't do it because he believes slavery is okay. It's true you don't know his reasoning for hiring the slavers until after you recruit him, but by the time the Landsmeet was over, I was convinced that he was just desperate. I won't execute him over the slavery issue.

[Miri1984]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Just because he doesn't say it in front of your character does not mean he didn't say it all. Loghain is the kind of man who values his men dearly, so if he thought the battle unwinnable ( which he did ) then he would first suggest pulling out entirely.

Also, the strategy for the whole battle was Loghain's.

Your point is what? That he is somewhat responsible for Ostagar just because he drew the plans? Cailan had the final say there, and Cailan was a blind moron ( just talk with him as a CE after doing the Origin, if he does not come out as a complete and utter moron then well.. )

An analogy would be to blame Hittler's generals for the massacre in Berlin at the end of WW2, even though they ALL believed it was suicide to try and hold the city they still did, and gave the Russians hell.

I just don't get the impression that Loghain's telling him "This is a suicide mission" from the conversation at the strategy meeting, and considering that's the only information we, as players, get out of it, I'll base my judgement on that, rather than trying to speculate what he's thinking. 

I execute Loghain for my own reasons. Poisoning Eamon is justifiable. Letting Howe run around murdering random nobles and torturing others isn't, but it's still not a great advertisement for Loghain in my books.

Finally, financially selling the alienage elves into Tevinter is a great idea. But morally, according to me (and my PC, and Alistair) that's the last straw, so he gets the chop. In the end its a moral choice, which is why it's such a great decision to be made to make. You have to use your own moral code to make the judgement. 

And the Hitler analogy is a bit much, really! You're talking about the end of a war, in the capital city - the symbolic defeat of an ideal and an entire country, not what everyone except the grey wardens think will be a minor darkspawn incursion. Remember Cailan says that they've won against them three times already.

[nos_astra]

phaonica wrote...
Edit: On second thought, I don't have a Loghain facepalm pic. sexy.

You know, every time someone calls Loghain "sexy" a fairy dies - or a unicorn. It's terrible! Really, I kid you not!

Modifié par klarabella, 01 mai 2010 - 09:50 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Miri1984: I am talking of a situation where generals still drew battle plans for a battle they KNEW they could not win. Loghain had concerns. Speak with Cailan's guard, or the gate guard on the path you take back ( who will mention several units of troops have arrived but that Loghain does not think they will be enough )

[Miri1984]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Miri1984: I am talking of a situation where generals still drew battle plans for a battle they KNEW they could not win. Loghain had concerns. Speak with Cailan's guard, or the gate guard on the path you take back ( who will mention several units of troops have arrived but that Loghain does not think they will be enough )

I don't deny he had concerns. I just don't think he voiced them strongly enough. I don't think Duncan did either, in fact as far as blame goes, Duncan is right up there with Loghain for the whole Ostagar deal - I don't buy his "He's the king we have to do as he says" defence. Beardy weirdy should have used Cailan's adoration to his advantage and told him where to stick his plans for battle glory - the Grey Wardens are supposed to be neutral after all. 

In the end Ostagar isn't why I kill Loghain. Although I think its a bit much for him to run out on everyone I can understand why he did it given the situation. Loghain dies for the decisions he makes after Ostagar. He demonstrates he'll do pretty much anything for power and I don't agree with that.

[MorseDenizen]

When it all boils down to it, he is both a traitor to his king and a usurper at a deviding a land at a time when unity is its greatest need to combat the darkspawn. If he disagreed with the Cailan's/Duncan's whimsical strategy, as a seasoned general he should have presented an alternative, not play along muttering all the while, and quit the battlefield letting the King get slaughtered (High Treason by the way), or proclaim himself Regent (very conveniently) immediately afterwards, its no surprise that the Bannorn didn't submit to him.

In any case if his motives were to protect Ferelden, why poison Arl Eamon? He would have been a powerful ally, why outlaw the Grey Wardem's and accuse them of Treason? they devote their very lives to stopping the Blight, which is also the threat.

Loghain's efforts to risee to power only sowed division and chaos among those who would defend Ferelden as he claimed he wished above all else, rather than come so close to losing Ferelden to the Arch Demon by pushing his unjust claim to the throne, in the worst way possible at the worst possible time. To me that doesn't speak of a man who loves his country, it speaks rather of a ruthless power hungry fool who'll gladly knock a hole in the boat in the middle of the sea if it means he can claim it as his own.

[mopotter]

phaonica wrote...

Look, some of us are new around here and would rather discuss than read hundreds of pages of threads. Is it better or worse to necro a thread? Either way, just ignore us if you don't like it.

Edit: On second thought, I don't have a Loghain facepalm pic. sexy.

I've been here from the beginning and I agree with you.  I miss the "good ol days" when the number of pages had limits and when it was reached they closed that thread and if someone was really interested in the subject, they started a new one.   

edit - morning need more coffee spelling problem.

Modifié par mopotter, 01 mai 2010 - 12:20 .