325 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Miri1984: I am talking of a situation where generals still drew battle plans for a battle they KNEW they could not win. Loghain had concerns. Speak with Cailan's guard, or the gate guard on the path you take back ( who will mention several units of troops have arrived but that Loghain does not think they will be enough )

You can also speak with Duncan and Alistair who tell you pretty much the same thing - that Cailan is a fool, that waiting for reinforcements would be wise, that Loghain is the man with the plan. They trust him!

And in the end Loghain retreats the moment they light the beacon (Alistair and the PC don't know that, they only know what Morrigan told them about the battle) ... but obviously without any kind of sensible fallback plan in case they were overwhelmed.

So the Darkspawn raid at Ostagar was so large that the troops there couldn't handle them ... and that's not a sign for a Blight? Darkspawn that make a concerted attack against Ostagar and manage to outnumber and overwhelm the army? That's something a good general would leave unchecked?

Loghain dies in most of my games ... he is failing his King and his country.

Modifié par klarabella, 01 mai 2010 - 12:21 .

[Costin_Razvan]

but obviously without any kind of sensible fallback plan in case they were overwhelmed.

What kind of fallback plan can you make when the idiot Cailan is refusing to gather his full forces except retreat? Hold Lothering with a force that is heavily demoralized by a defeat and would be smashed by the the Darkspawn horde?

His FIRST action upon returning to Denerim is to try and rally the full military of the country, and send ambassadors to the Dwarves for their support while giving an offer to Uldred for freedom and hopping to enlist the power of the Circle of Magi.

He cannot afford to show weakness in the face of the Landsmeet, so that is why he declares himself reagent and says the Wardens killed Cailan. If he had declared he retreated in the face of a overwhelming onslaught of Darkspawn ( which no matter how you look at it, was exactly how it happened ) then almost every single noble would have torn him to pieces.

I do not believe he wanted the wardens dead. He did not kill Riordan and he did not kill PC when Cauthriens captures him/her. He simply wanted them out of the way.

His plan to gather support of the Circle and Dwarves failed because the Dwarven King was dead Wynne played like the ignorant idiot she is and convinced the Circle Loghain killed Cailan ( she has a way of talking ).

You can look at Ostagar however you like. You can reason in a way that Cailan was betrayed, but he certainly was not killed by Loghain. Cailan made his own choices and was there because he wanted to, even despite Loghain's protests.

Why do people use the KING argument so often? What because someone is King he should be granted unwavering loyalty? That kind of bull**** thinking spawned some of the worst kings in the history of Europe as well as some of the greatest tyrants.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 mai 2010 - 01:09 .

[Highdragonslayer]

Willowhugger wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...

Lohgain wouldnt survive against the zerg swarm

But the Zerg Swarm IS WHAT THE BLIGHT IS ALL ABOUT!

The blight couldnt survive the zerg swarm

[sassperella]

I don't care what reasons he had for the ostagar thing to be honest, whether it was intentional or whether it was justified, that to me is only the tip of the iceberg.

1. He poisened Arl Eamon
2. He blamed the wardens for the king's death and hired an assassin to kill the remaining wardens.
3. He nearly destroyed Fereldan to his ambition by bringing about civil war and leaving the darkspawn to run riot and
4. The most reprehensible thing of all, he funded his war efforts by selling City elves to slavers.

All of the above were deliberate and choices he made to further his ambition, and while Ostagar may have been a tactical withdrawal, his subsequent actions damn him for me. He only remains alive once in my games for achievement purposes and even then I feel dirty.

Modifié par sassperella, 01 mai 2010 - 01:23 .

[Icinix]

Was it justified : No

Was Cailan an over confident fool : Yes

There were better ways to handle it. He set up the plan, he wanted it to fail. There always was other options, but he deliberately caused the deaths of all of those soldiers and grey wardens.



There is no way of knowing if he had charged in if his troops could have made a difference at Ostagar, the only certainty is that they were doomed when he didn't.



The rebellion he caused was because of hatred of Orlais and lust for power, not because of a just cause.

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
What kind of fallback plan can you make when the idiot Cailan is refusing to gather his full forces except retreat? Hold Lothering with a force that is heavily demoralized by a defeat and would be smashed by the the Darkspawn horde?

Funny that it was Cailan who had asked for help from Orlais in advance, while Loghain turned them down.
Funny that something so unstoppable is so NOTABLIGHTNOTALIGHTNOTABLIGHT.

Whatever is true for Ostagar (and I still think it's a very convenient tactical withdrawal, even if it was unplanned and even if he managed to convince himself that his battle plan was not going to work at this point), his actions afterwards are NOT justifiable.

Modifié par klarabella, 01 mai 2010 - 01:27 .

[hpjay]

I'm curious what everyone, particularly Loghain supporters, think the prudent course of action at Ostagar should have been.



Should they have waited for reinforcements? And other than Arl Eamon, what would those reinforcements have been? And if the Fereldans wait another week for more troops, what do we suppose the Dark Spawn are doing during this time? Wouldn't they be likewise bolstering their numbers? Would there really be any net gain in the Fereldan strategic position if they waited? I'm inclined to think they would either gain no advantage or lose advantage.



I personally think Cailin had it right. He knew (or strongly suspected) it was a true blight. He knew the longer they waited the worse their position would be. Without being able to bring in troops and wardens from Orlais , his only choice was to stop the incursion as quickly as possible with the forces he had. Sure, if they lost at Ostagar than Fereldan would be overrun. But if they waited too long Fereldan would still be overrun as the blight became larger and stronger. Loghain's actions were only prudent if this was not a true blight and the darkspawn returned to the Deep Roads after the raids at Ostagar.



Bottom line, if this wasn't a true blight, Cailan's actions were brash and irresponsible. If it was a true blight Cailan was doing the right thing by trying to stop it as soon as possible.

[Willowhugger]

hpjay wrote...

I'm curious what everyone, particularly Loghain supporters, think the prudent course of action at Ostagar should have been.

I think harrying the Darkspawn was the best course of action during this time.  A good commander knows that sometimes you have to make sacrifices to win the day.  Arl Eamon's reinforcements would have been a serious boon, as would the chevaliers.  Of course; if Duncan had his way, I'm sure the PC might have also been sent to help
get the various treaties from the Magi, Elves, and Dwarves. 

There would still be losses, of course, but the blight would have been far less devastating.

[KnightofPhoenix]

hpjay wrote...

I'm curious what everyone, particularly Loghain supporters, think the prudent course of action at Ostagar should have been.

Simple. Assassinate Cailan and formulate a better strategy.

The mistake Loghain made was to think the battle could be won and that's why he waited in the first place. What should have been done is him get rid of  the idiot Cailan, go back to Denerim and make his daughter Queen regnant and not make hismelf regent as that would be unnecessary (Loghain doesn't need to protect Anora from involving her in his plot). 

Since there wouldn't have been an Ostagar, Uldred's plan at the Circle of Magi would have worked and Loghain would have acquired a mage army.

The essential thing however is what he would do with the Wardens and that cannot be helped. He doesn't know why they are necessary.
Ideally, what he should do is allow only the Wardens to cross the border and keep the Orlesian legions out. But a very likely possibility is that he would have framed the wardens for cailan's death and hunted them down anyways.

Which boils down to the most important thing. Loghain's ignorance vis a vis the Wardens, due to the Warden's secrecy. Coupled with the Wardens thinking it's a good idea to come with legions of Chevaliers. That was the main problem. And it's an ignorance I don't blame Loghain for, as even I didn't know why the Wardens are necessary until the end.    

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Simple. Assassinate Cailan and formulate a better strategy.

Bingo, we have a winner. Whack the king. Go straight for the throat. Had he done this, we would not have seen the entire army at Ostagar wiped out. The soldiers would not die for Cailan's foolishness. He could have then pulled the army out of Ostagar and went on to figure out a better plan. Blame the assasination on the Wardens for extra benefit, kill two birds with one stone.

Secondly, he should not have went straight for the regency. He should have consulted with Anora and remained in the shadows advising her as general, but let her actually call the shots publically. This way, he looks less suspect, and Anora more secure.  There is less likelyhood of him looking like a powergrabber, and less likelyhood of the Landsmeet rebelling and starting a civil war. For added security and benefit, find out the most potentially troublesome of the bans and arrange for tragic accidents to befall them. Best done if arranged before Ostagar. Eamon was a good start, though Loghain really should have went all the way there and killed him.

Now, he has the king, Grey Wardens, and most potentially troublesome banns out of the way, things should be relatively calm. No massive losses of troops at Ostagar, so no need to press gang and pillage resources to rebuild an army, or sell off citizens into slavery to restock your coffers. You're pretty much set to deal with just about any problems now.

Well, except the Blight, but that's a different story all together.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

phaonica wrote...
Well, I'm going to stand by my thoughts that his prideful epic fail may justify removing him as Regent, but not executing him. Once the burden of political power he put upon himself is taken away, I think he has the potential to be a decent person, which is not what I thought of Howe or the Tevinter slaver.

That's fine, and you have valid points. However, I seldom feel any desire to show him mercy. Mainly because his failings cost the lives of thousands of Fereldens, soldiers and civilians alike. It is the scale of victims in his wake that makes me decide he must be removed personally.

I don't care so much about abandoning the king, as I do him abandoning all those good Ferelden soldiers. And then making fool decisions and ripping the country up in civil war. The scale of his madness is why I justify killing him. Had he merely assassinated the king and a couple of nobles, and managed to avoid all the carnage, then I'd certainly consider it. In game, I usually spared enemies who surrendered, like Zevran and the assassin Marjorlaine sent, because not only did they fail, but their crimes were considerably smaller (trying to kill 4 people instead of entire swaths of the population.)

[Patriciachr34]

AnniLau wrote...

Cailan seeking political alliance with Orlais does not equate him either a) selling Fereldan down the river or planning to wed the Empress.

And no, what Loghain did was not justified.

I agree with AnniLau.  Killing your King is not justified.  Loghain was a master tactician.  He could have helped Cailin and the wardens stage a strategic retreat.  He did not.  He simply left everyone to die.  Cailin knew we needed reinforcements to end the blight.  This is why he sent for the wardens and their forces. Riorden says that the Chavaliers were under Grey Warden command.  I believr aCailin was trying to force Loghain to see the need for outside assistance.

You do not know that Cailin was going to put Anora aside.  He hadn't spoken to his uncle in a year after he Eamon made the suggestion.  This sounds like he wasn't too keen on the idea.  Cailin was simply trying create equitable relations with a former enemy.  Thus the overatures of peace to the Empress Celine.  Cailin wasn't trying to seel Ferelden to the Orlesians.  He was trying to save them and creating allies to do so.  Loghain was simply too corrupted by his own hate and distrust to see Ferelden's need.  He was also overconfident in his ability to defeat any enemy that came his way.  This was his great weakness.

[shedevil3001]

firstly loghain may not have actually struck the king dead but he did abandon him and hundreds of good men, left them to die, secondly he was just as responsible as howe if not more so, for the torturing of the nobles if you watch the second cutscene of denerim after you find out about zevran, its loghain not howe who says first we put the nobles in their place then we deal with the darkspawn, howe simply says by then they wont have enough to fight the darkspawn, thirdly theres the fact that not only did he retreat and leave hundreds of men to die at ostagar but he also blamed the wardens to cover up his deception, the creep, forthly he was responsible for selling slaves to the tevinter, how is he any better than orlesians ? hmmmmm, last but by no means least he rewarded howe for all his treachery, and nothing will convince me that he knew nothing of exactly what howe did, now if i had the option to hang him i would of as that was the punishment he would of gotten had a king been present, but mean as there wasn't and it was a choice of him who had commited such crimes, and no way i would trust him, or alistair, who had been with me from the beginning and was loyal, also someone i would trust with my life (my grey warden) i choose alistair every time so unfortunatly loghain gets the beheading, and yes it's unfortunatly infront of his daughter, but thats only coz there isn't an option for a private execution, but those are my reasons for killing loghain and definatly thinking his actions were not justified.

[GreatSword127]

Loghain let his pride and past nearly destroy Fereldan, Calian was all for waiting for the Orlisan troops, which would have bolsterd their numbers and probably been able to stop the Blight right there.



Loghain=PRIDEFUL FOOL THAT NEEDED DEATH (I prescribed it and administered it.)

[phaonica]

klarabella wrote..
You know, every time someone calls Loghain "sexy" a fairy dies - or a unicorn. It's terrible! Really, I kid you not!

Death to the unicorns!

Miri1982 wrote
He demonstrates he'll do pretty much anything for power and I don't agree with that.

I think he demonstrates that he'll do pretty much anything for Ferelden. The Wardens are supposed to do pretty much anything to stop the Blight, too, but not all characters are willing to do that. There are some lines some characters are morally not willing to cross, even to Stop the Blight/Save Ferelden, and I can certainly accept that.

I think Loghain's failures were not magnified by his madness or lust for power--they were magnified by his influence. (I haven't done the Marjolaine story, so bear with me) If someone is an assassin and they kill a couple people, and then beg for mercy... I might be convinced to spare them. Loghain had considerable influence over large portions of the population. He was trying to be careful, but it wasn't working, and because of his influence lots and lots of people died. The assassin wasn't trying to be careful, he didn't care at all. Why should I spare the assassin and not Loghain? Because the assassin killed fewer people? Killing more people doesn't necessarily mean he is a worse person, it just means that he can't handle that much power. I'm willing to just relieve him of the responsiblity of that power and let him try again. He only wants the power because he thinks he needs it to save Ferelden.. which is actually the only reason I can think of that Alistair wants it....

[shedevil3001]

only thing with that is unless you harden alistair, he really doesn't want power, he just wants to be a warden, and try and save fereldon

[Raiil]

In the end, no.





Loghain is a fascinating, complex character with a lot of layers. I hate him, but it's true. However, in the end, he believed that he alone could save Ferelden when no one person is capable of doing it- even the Warden must summon help from traditional allies and have Arl Eamon assist them towards the Landsmeet. His pride allowed innocent people to be shipped off to Tevinter as slaves, and his allies nearly broke (or did break, depending on how you play it) the Circle- Loghain's choice of mage allies was horrible. He relied on brute force to get his way on a people that historically do not respond well to it. As for not wanting power, I find it hard to believe that a person having a crown made does not want power. He allowed Howe to walk from justice after learning, from the HN, what he did to the Couslands. He nearly killed Eamon. His anger towards the Orlesians is justifiable, but his actions towards his home country are not.

[Chuvvy]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Paranoia does strange things to people.

You don't say.

This thread is now about Mother****in' Bruce Campbell.

[Willowhugger]

I like to think Loghain honestly did do a lot of evil.



Retconning that away to make him a hero diminshes the story.



I think it's better for him to realize how horrible he's become thanks to becoming a Grey Warden

[Raiil]

Willowhugger wrote...

I like to think Loghain honestly did do a lot of evil.

Retconning that away to make him a hero diminshes the story.

I think it's better for him to realize how horrible he's become thanks to becoming a Grey Warden

He is a hero, just a fallen one. That's what makes him interesting to people, the same way that Howe is interesting to me. He's not all blah blah someday I will RULE THE WORLD. Or Ferelden, at any rate.

[phaonica]

Willowhugger wrote...

I like to think Loghain honestly did do a lot of evil.

Retconning that away to make him a hero diminshes the story.

I think it's better for him to realize how horrible he's become thanks to becoming a Grey Warden

I like a story better when it's not so cut and dry. I like it when there is more depth than that.

I think it's a shame to retcon his story away to make us feel like the hero.
His actions may not have been heroic, but his intentions were.
His actions lead me to remove him as a regent. His intentions lead me to be unable to justify executing him.

"We believe what we want to believe. It's all we ever do."

[phaonica]

Valentia X wrote...
 However, in the end, he believed that he alone could save Ferelden when no one person is capable of doing it-

I don't think this was pride, I think it was fear. Fear drove him to make mistakes. Fear drove him to not trust anyone else with the responsiblity of Ferelden's future. Maybe once he had gained power, and realized he was screwing it all up, he didn't know who else he could trust with the responsiblity, and he didn't want to dump this mess on his daughter (you can argue that this is pride, but I will *not* execute him for wanting to protect his daughter). I can imagine that he would be *so relieved* when he finds out that the Warden is actually someone who is capable, whom he can trust to stop the Blight, but not at the cost of Ferelden (if you are playing your character that way).

Loghain's choice of mage allies was horrible.

You are right, his choice for allies in general was horrible, but it has to be very hard to find allies that are true and honorable, that also agree that killing its king is the best thing for the country.

As for not wanting power, I find it hard to believe that a person having a crown made does not want power.

Honestly, I had forgotten about this crown... It could protentially debunk my theory about fear driving him more than pride. [Or it could be a sidequest-that-occurs-in-a-vacuum.] I'll have to look into it some more to see what I think.
Most of what he did after Ostagar are things that he shouldn't be proud of. They were not done with evil intentions, but they are not something to be proud of. Other than this crown, I've never doubted that he didn't want to be king, he just didn't know anyone who could pull off what he was trying to do. Are you here, KoP? Help me with this one

Modifié par phaonica, 01 mai 2010 - 08:56 .

[Raiil]

phaonica wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
 However, in the end, he believed that he alone could save Ferelden when no one person is capable of doing it-

I don't think this was pride, I think it was fear. Fear drove him to make mistakes. Fear drove him to not trust anyone else with the responsiblity of Ferelden's future. Maybe once he had gained power, and realized he was screwing it all up, he didn't know who else he could trust with the responsiblity, and he didn't want to dump this mess on his daughter (you can argue that this is pride, but I will *not* execute him for wanting to protect his daughter). I can imagine that he would be *so relieved* when he finds out that the Warden is actually someone who is capable, whom he can trust to stop the Blight, but not at the cost of Ferelden (if you are playing your character that way).

Loghain's choice of mage allies was horrible.

You are right, his choice for allies in general was horrible, but it has to be very hard to find allies that are true and honorable, that also agree that killing its king is the best thing for the country.

As for not wanting power, I find it hard to believe that a person having a crown made does not want power.

Honestly, I had forgotten about this crown... It could protentially debunk my theory about fear driving him more than pride. [Or it could be a sidequest-that-occurs-in-a-vacuum.] I'll have to look into it some more to see what I think.
Most of what he did after Ostagar are things that he shouldn't be proud of. They were not done with evil intentions, but they are not something to be proud of. Other than this crown, I've never doubted that he didn't want to be king, he just didn't know anyone who could pull off what he was trying to do. Are you here, KoP? Help me with this one

Even it was fear that initially drove him, he obviously felt he had the strength and wherewithal to lead Ferelden. That's a bit overweening in and of itself. He went out of his way to make allies within the Circle to solidify his rule, and tried with the dwarves, who luckily were not having any of that ****.


The fact that he had to make a deal with such a shady character speaks to poor judgement on some level. I believe Loghain to be a brilliant tactician and great general, but he had to either know that Uldred was a ******, or he was unable to figure out what a ****** Uldred was, neither option speaks well of his ability to choose good allies. Plus, he stood with Howe. Sorry, no. I'd have more confidence in Loghain's ability if he'd had Howe killed afterwards- discreetly, of course. And siding with Tevinter slavers? Yeah, nothing says 'I will protect my people' like shipping them off to foreign countries to be sold. If he loved Ferelden so much, he should have loved all of Ferelden that much, and not stood by when citizens where being shackled and sold. It seems to me that he loved maintaining some sort of status quo- that Ferelden remained free from Orlais, rather than Ferelden remained free, period. In my opinion, Loghain hated Orlais more than he loved Ferelden. Not to say that the man wasn't a patriot, and that he didn't love his country, but his actions speak more of unbridled paranoia rather than the acts of a rational man.

[Reaverwind]

phaonica wrote...

DrAbysmal wrote...

The darkspawn will gladly destroy the country if not stopped, Loghain's timing for a civil war is very poor. If he truly retreated because he didn't believe his forces could turn the tide at Ostagar, what makes him think he could defeat an archdemon-led force (that is very obviously going to attack eventually) with a fractured nation and losses incurred with in-fighting?

Even if he thought his forces couldn't turn the tide at Ostagar, he knew about the Dwarves, Elves, Mages and whatnot just like the Grey Wardens did, and he was trying to get their support after Ostagar. He also didn't belive this was a real blight, because he didn't trust the Wardens.

Just goes to show what a political screw-up he was - his stunts at Ostagar and shortly thereafter GUARANTEED he had no clout. He didn't believe there was a Blight - so why should the dwarves or Dalish risk their people to help Fereldan? If he thought Ostagar was unwinnable (which he should have known beforehand if he was really worth his salt as a general) - he should have told Cailin upfront he wasn't going to commit his forces. Nope, the man doesn't get a free pass from me.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 01 mai 2010 - 09:14 .

[Willowhugger]

I think Loghain's situation deteriorated, ironically, in large part because of the Warden. He allied with Arl Howe, now the Teryn of Highever, in order to make himself the most powerful nobleman in Feldaran. He also gave Denerim to Arl Howe because he knew that he had something over him and he was supporting him unconditionally. However, in the case of the Human Noble, that just pretty much made Loghain a conspirator in his family's death.  The Warden basically does a HUGE amount of heroism across Fereldan and Loghain's attempts to smear him just bite him in the ass. Worse, I think allying with Howe and poisoning Eamon just turned all of the nobility against him BUT Howe.

I wonder, why, though, that Loghain needed coin THAT desperately that he sent slavers into the City Alienage.  Is there any special dialogue for Loghain in the Alienage?

Modifié par Willowhugger, 01 mai 2010 - 09:11 .