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[Tirigon]

Loghain is a cruel traitor who tried to oppress his own people.



Cailan was an idiot, but at least he had honor and cared for his country.

[Raiil]

Tirigon wrote...

Loghain is a cruel traitor who tried to oppress his own people.

Cailan was an idiot, but at least he had honor and cared for his country.

And therein lies the rub. Loving your country does not make you an effective leader anymore than being a skilled general does. We know less of Cailan's motivations than we do of Loghain's so which makes the better leader issue difficult to pin down.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Loghain is a cruel traitor who tried to oppress his own people.

Cailan was an idiot, but at least he had honor and cared for his country.

And therein lies the rub. Loving your country does not make you an effective leader anymore than being a skilled general does. We know less of Cailan's motivations than we do of Loghain's so which makes the better leader issue difficult to pin down.

Neither of them are good leaders or rather politicians, though I would trust Loghain more,if only for experience.

But if it came down to a strong and ruthless leader who cares about his country, or an idiot who also cares, I would choose the former (aka the strong and ruthless).
Ideally however, I would pick myself for that.  

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Neither of them are good leaders or rather politicians, though I would trust Loghain more,if only for experience.

None of them is good, but Cailan will do no harm to his people - at least not voluntarily - and can easier be controlled by an able leader aka the player.

Ideally however, I would pick myself for that.  

Sometimes we DO agree.

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Loghain is a cruel traitor who tried to oppress his own people.

Cailan was an idiot, but at least he had honor and cared for his country.

And therein lies the rub. Loving your country does not make you an effective leader anymore than being a skilled general does. We know less of Cailan's motivations than we do of Loghain's so which makes the better leader issue difficult to pin down.

Neither of them are good leaders or rather politicians, though I would trust Loghain more,if only for experience.

But if it came down to a strong and ruthless leader who cares about his country, or an idiot who also cares, I would choose the former (aka the strong and ruthless).
Ideally however, I would pick myself for that.  

KnightofPhoenix 2010? Cast your vote today~

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Neither of them are good leaders or rather politicians, though I would trust Loghain more,if only for experience.

None of them is good, but Cailan will do no harm to his people - at least not voluntarily - and can easier be controlled by an able leader aka the player.

Seeing how the hero of the River dane and Teyrn of Gwaren himself couldn't get Cailan to think properly, I doubt your PC will be able to knock the "glorious" out of his thick head.

That's the problem with heridetary monarchies. No matter how great the father is (and Maric was great despite his flaws, complemented by Loghain), he will inevitably be inherited by an idiotic son or grandson.

Doing harm to one's people is sometimes necessary, if only to avoid greater harm. I would rather have a leader who knows this, instead of someone who doesn't know **** about suffering and harm (Cailan didn't know anything about his kingdom).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...
KnightofPhoenix 2010? Cast your vote today~

YES....I....CAN!

Nice slogan. I do like the sound of it

[Costin_Razvan]

Yeah...Loghain is quite easily controlled ( See Howe ).

Tirigon: Replace Cailan with Alistair and we can have a discussion. Cailan is a blind stubborn moron.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 01 mai 2010 - 09:44 .

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
KnightofPhoenix 2010? Cast your vote today~

YES....I....CAN!

Nice slogan. I do like the sound of it

Well, I'm sold. Where can I pick up my official bumper sticker?

[Costin_Razvan]

I suggest we make Knight dictator for life. Though I would also suggest forming a secretive council that would deal in making sure the next ruler after him is not an incompetent moron, no matter what it would take.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
KnightofPhoenix 2010? Cast your vote today~

YES....I....CAN!

Nice slogan. I do like the sound of it

Well, I'm sold. Where can I pick up my official bumper sticker?

You will find it under your pillow, if you put a donation under it before you go to sleep.

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
KnightofPhoenix 2010? Cast your vote today~

How many soverigns is this going to cost me?
YES....I....CAN!

Nice slogan. I do like the sound of it

Well, I'm sold. Where can I pick up my official bumper sticker?

You will find it under your pillow, if you put a donation under it before you go to sleep.

How many soverigns is this going to run me?

Modifié par Valentia X, 01 mai 2010 - 09:55 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Depends on what kind of sticker you want. If you want dragonbone or the all new white silver, then it's 10 sovereigns. If you want heartwood or the material that vigilance is made from, then it's 15. But that's the best of the best. And since I am nice, I will give you a 20% discount. Because, remember, Yes I Can.

[nikki191]

the story is a good example of screw up compounded by desperate screw up caused by paranoia and secrecy.



ive executed Loghain in every game so far mostly because i tend to play a CE or HN and both of those origins have a very personal reason to cut off his head



Loghain was paranoid, he had obviously lost every confidence in cailans rule and the overtures to the orlesians seemed to be the last straw. Loghain is the result of paranoid blind patriotism. he would do anything to protect his country which ended up the route of some very evil actions.



i do think howe had a lot to do with it. loghain was obviously facing a lot of disagreement from the nobles and with howe litterally one of the only he could count on supporting him. we have a terrible chain of events made worse with no one not even new recruits knowing why grey wardens are needed.



did he see and realise the darkspawn couldnt be defeated at ostagar? no idea. did he decide to retreat because to him cailan was getting his just punishment for selling out his kingdom to the orlesians? no idea

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Depends on what kind of sticker you want. If you want dragonbone or the all new white silver, then it's 10 sovereigns. If you want heartwood or the material that vigilance is made from, then it's 15. But that's the best of the best. And since I am nice, I will give you a 20% discount. Because, remember, Yes I Can.

....I guess it's time to go let that Pride Demon run free. 

[Reaverwind]

nikki191 wrote...
Loghain was paranoid, he had obviously lost every confidence in cailans rule and the overtures to the orlesians seemed to be the last straw. Loghain is the result of paranoid blind patriotism. he would do anything to protect his country which ended up the route of some very evil actions.

Reminds me of a certain real-world leader, who also lost confidence in his country's leaders, thought his country had been sold out to another country, seized control and was willing to do anything to ensure his country's future - ironically, he was condemned for actions now being praised in this thread....hm.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Reaverwind wrote...

nikki191 wrote...
Loghain was paranoid, he had obviously lost every confidence in cailans rule and the overtures to the orlesians seemed to be the last straw. Loghain is the result of paranoid blind patriotism. he would do anything to protect his country which ended up the route of some very evil actions.

Reminds me of a certain real-world leader, who also lost confidence in his country's leaders, thought his country had been sold out to another country, seized control and was willing to do anything to ensure his country's future - ironically, he was condemned for actions now being praised in this thread....hm.

"Yay, I made a sublte reference to Hitler, so I must be very smart"

Completely different situations and examples all together. One was motivated by love for his country. The other was motivated by an ideotic ideology based on racial biggotry. One had fought hard to liberate his country and has experience in doing it. The other was only a corporal who thought he understood war. One was not an expansionist war monger, the other was. One was not genocidal, the other was.

And I can go on. Forgive me if I don't go into the details. But I refuse to put much thought into a post that clearly was not thought out well either.

[Raiil]

Oh, I thought he was talking about Che Guevara. But most of my world history is dark ages to the renaissance. :/





Loghain is fundamentally flawed, and I do hate him, but that's because of how he was written- it's a good sign that a fictional character can evoke an emotional response. But I wouldn't put him there with an Idi Amin or Xiao Qin Cian. His greatest sin really was arrogance- a very human fault- compiled with paranoia. Hardly evil.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...

Oh, I thought he was talking about Che Guevara. But most of my world history is dark ages to the renaissance. :/

I assumed he was talking about Hitler, as this wouldn't be the first time he does it.

[hpjay]

Willowhugger wrote...

hpjay wrote...

I'm curious what everyone, particularly Loghain supporters, think the prudent course of action at Ostagar should have been.

I think harrying the Darkspawn was the best course of action during this time.  A good commander knows that sometimes you have to make sacrifices to win the day.  Arl Eamon's reinforcements would have been a serious boon, as would the chevaliers.  Of course; if Duncan had his way, I'm sure the PC might have also been sent to help
get the various treaties from the Magi, Elves, and Dwarves. 

There would still be losses, of course, but the blight would have been far less devastating.

I don't know.  How big a difference could Eamon's forces have made.  And when waiting for Eamon we also let the dark spawn increase their forces.  And the chevaliers weren't coming -  It was Loghain's insistance that Orlais forces weren't needed that led Cailan to make his stand at Ostagar with the forces he had.   Despite the earlier fereldan army victories, the dark spawn managed to field a larger force in each successive engagement.  I think there is much to be said for Cailan's desire for a quick, decisive victory over the dark spawn forces.  Was it dangerous?  Sure.  But so is sitting and waiting for Eamon while the darkspawn forces multipy.

[Raiil]

If we're capable of doing a forced march to Denerim in two days time from Redcliffe, I'm pretty sure Eamon could have had his men to Ostagar just as quickly. Cailan was an idiot for not calling on Redcliffe.

[Costin_Razvan]

"Nothing would be more gratifying to the former and more insulting to the latter." On Hitler and Loghain.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...

If we're capable of doing a forced march to Denerim in two days time from Redcliffe, I'm pretty sure Eamon could have had his men to Ostagar just as quickly. Cailan was an idiot for not calling on Redcliffe.

A counter argument could be "Well Loghain poisoned Eamon".
But that doesn't mean that redcliff's army is gone and it could be led without Eamon.

The fact that Cailan was so determined to get the Orlesians to help, but didn't care much for Eamon's forces, for me shows how Celene was playing with his empty head. 

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

If we're capable of doing a forced march to Denerim in two days time from Redcliffe, I'm pretty sure Eamon could have had his men to Ostagar just as quickly. Cailan was an idiot for not calling on Redcliffe.

A counter argument could be "Well Loghain poisoned Eamon".
But that doesn't mean that redcliff's army is gone and it could be led without Eamon.

The fact that Cailan was so determined to get the Orlesians to help, but didn't care much for Eamon's forces, for me shows how Celene was playing with his empty head. 

I'm neutral on Celene since we know so little about her, and to be frank, Cailan, while a good man (and I think in some respects more intelligent than he appears to be, at least in some areas) needed a kick in the caboose about some of his actions in general, Celene or no. The thing is, Loghain isn't the best candidate for that. Not because he's ~evil~. In fact, I didn't find him particularly overbearing until, well, he got a lot of good men killed. But because he has somewhat of a paternal or uncle relationship with Loghain, and could reasonably see Loghain as trying to 'parent' him instead of giving him sound advice. You know how kids are.

[hpjay]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

hpjay wrote...

I'm curious what everyone, particularly Loghain supporters, think the prudent course of action at Ostagar should have been.

Simple. Assassinate Cailan and formulate a better strategy.

The mistake Loghain made was to think the battle could be won and that's why he waited in the first place. What should have been done is him get rid of  the idiot Cailan, go back to Denerim and make his daughter Queen regnant and not make hismelf regent as that would be unnecessary (Loghain doesn't need to protect Anora from involving her in his plot). 

Since there wouldn't have been an Ostagar, Uldred's plan at the Circle of Magi would have worked and Loghain would have acquired a mage army.

The essential thing however is what he would do with the Wardens and that cannot be helped. He doesn't know why they are necessary.
Ideally, what he should do is allow only the Wardens to cross the border and keep the Orlesian legions out. But a very likely possibility is that he would have framed the wardens for cailan's death and hunted them down anyways.

Which boils down to the most important thing. Loghain's ignorance vis a vis the Wardens, due to the Warden's secrecy. Coupled with the Wardens thinking it's a good idea to come with legions of Chevaliers. That was the main problem. And it's an ignorance I don't blame Loghain for, as even I didn't know why the Wardens are necessary until the end.    

No.  the mistake Loghain made was in underestimating the darkspawn threat.  He sacrified a large portion of his forces in the Ostagar battle.  If he wasn't able to defeat the darkspawn with the forces on hand at Ostagar how did he think he could defeat them with a diminished force later on.  Unless he believed the darkspawn would disperse after the non-blight raids.

Also, what happened at Ostagar that defeated  Uldred's plans. NOTHING.  

Killing the king, retreating to the north and letting the darkspawn ravage the south, and hoping for a mage plot to take over the circle succeeds doesn't seem very prudent.  Esspecially since they already had the support of the circle, Uldred or no.

I think the prudent plan would have been to accept aid from Orlais.  But lacking that, Fereldan's best hope for victory may well have been Cailan's stand at Ostagar.  At that time they didn't have the dwarven or dalish support, nor would they have had any measure as to the size of relief they could expect from that quarter.  And would Eamon's forces really tipped the balance that far.  I's say no. Especially since delays would allow the darkspawn forces to grow as well.  

Modifié par hpjay, 01 mai 2010 - 10:40 .