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[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...
But because he has somewhat of a paternal or uncle relationship with Loghain, and could reasonably see Loghain as trying to 'parent' him instead of giving him sound advice. You know how kids are.

Meaning of CAILAN

Name: Cailan 
Gender: M 
Meaning: child 
Origin: Gaelic 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mai 2010 - 10:36 .

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
But because he has somewhat of a paternal or uncle relationship with Loghain, and could reasonably see Loghain as trying to 'parent' him instead of giving him sound advice. You know how kids are.

Meaning of CAILAN

Name: Cailan 
Gender: M 
Meaning: child 
Origin: Gaelic 

LOL. Even behindthename vindicates me~!

[phaonica]

In my opinion, Loghain hated Orlais more than he loved Ferelden

I won't argue that Loghain's hatred for Orlais is more personal than practical. I don't think the personal negates the practical. I don't think that because he hates Orlais more, it means he doesn't love Ferelden. Would he rather risk that Ferelden fall rather than allying with Orlais? Perhaps.

I think Alistair proves that he hates Loghain more than he loves the Wardens. Even if he doesn't quit the Wardens in your playthrough, he is *capable* of doing such a thing. Alistair would rather let the Blight take Ferelden than risk allying with Loghain. He hates Loghain more than he loves the Wardens. Does this make him an unfit Warden? When Alistair quits the Wardens, that's a decision that means the Blight could take Ferelden and Orlais and who knows whereever else. How many people could that have killed? Is that so irresponsible that he deserves to be executed?

If Loghain's hatred for Orlais clouds his judgment concering Ferelden, then in equal measure Alistair's hatred for Loghain clouds his judgment concerning the Blight. At this point, do I think that either of them should be executed? No. Do I think that Loghain should be removed as regent so that he can't do any more damage. Yes. Do I think that Alistair should be removed from the Wardens? No. I think he should probably be severely reprimanded, but given a chance to get over it and continue with the mission. Alistair has proven himself a more capable Warden than Loghain has proven himself a capable politician. Just because he is a bad politician, doesn't mean he deserves execution. If someone executes another for personal reasons, then I just don't see how that person can take a morally superior stance.

[hpjay]

Valentia X wrote...

If we're capable of doing a forced march to Denerim in two days time from Redcliffe, I'm pretty sure Eamon could have had his men to Ostagar just as quickly. Cailan was an idiot for not calling on Redcliffe.

Duncan actually made a comment that Eamon could have his forces at Ostagar in a week - not two days.   I agree if Eamon would on;y have needed two days then they should have waited.  But a whole week is a lot of time for the darkspawn to mass more troops.  I think a week may have been too long to wait for Eamon. 

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The fact that Cailan was so determined to get the Orlesians to help, but didn't care much for Eamon's forces, for me shows how Celene was playing with his empty head. 

Actually, Cailan was planning and working towards a permanent alliance with the Empire with him as Emperor at Celene´s side. That would have made Ferelden much stronger than Loghain´s racist hate against Orlais - even if it´s an understandable and justified hate unlike in real life racism.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The fact that Cailan was so determined to get the Orlesians to help, but didn't care much for Eamon's forces, for me shows how Celene was playing with his empty head. 

Actually, Cailan was planning and working towards a permanent alliance with the Empire with him as Emperor at Celene´s side. That would have made Ferelden much stronger than Loghain´s racist hate against Orlais - even if it´s an understandable and justified hate unlike in real life racism.

Ugh, I have already argued that such a plan is a disaster in other threads. I really am too lazy to just copy paste.

But, and no offense, anyone with a tiny grasp in politics can not see this as a good idea. A backwater being merged with a superpower, will be like another invasion.
If anything, Loghain was right at the end.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Meaning of CAILAN

Name: Cailan 
Gender: M 
Meaning: child 
Origin: Gaelic 

Source?


Though it IS fitting, lol....

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Ugh, I have already argued that such a plan is a disaster in other threads. I really am too lazy to just copy paste.

But, and no offense, anyone with a tiny grasp in politics can not see this as a good idea. A backwater being merged with a superpower, will be like another invasion.
If anything, Loghain was right at the end.

I´m too lazy to search for your reasons in other threads (probably they aren´t good anyways:P) so I´ll just say that I disagree.

After all, Cailan will be Emperor after the marriage, so it would be like the backwater conquering the superpower.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Meaning of CAILAN

Name: Cailan 
Gender: M 
Meaning: child 
Origin: Gaelic 

Source?


Though it IS fitting, lol....

http://www.kamalkapo...asp?name=Cailan

http://www.babynamen...Name/Cailan.htm

http://www.babynolog...-cailan-m6.html

http://baby-names.ad...rch/Cailan.html

http://www.babycente...-cailan-795.htm

[Raiil]

phaonica wrote...

In my opinion, Loghain hated Orlais more than he loved Ferelden

I won't argue that Loghain's hatred for Orlais is more personal than practical. I don't think the personal negates the practical. I don't think that because he hates Orlais more, it means he doesn't love Ferelden. Would he rather risk that Ferelden fall rather than allying with Orlais? Perhaps.

I think Alistair proves that he hates Loghain more than he loves the Wardens. Even if he doesn't quit the Wardens in your playthrough, he is *capable* of doing such a thing. Alistair would rather let the Blight take Ferelden than risk allying with Loghain. He hates Loghain more than he loves the Wardens. Does this make him an unfit Warden? When Alistair quits the Wardens, that's a decision that means the Blight could take Ferelden and Orlais and who knows whereever else. How many people could that have killed? Is that so irresponsible that he deserves to be executed?

If Loghain's hatred for Orlais clouds his judgment concering Ferelden, then in equal measure Alistair's hatred for Loghain clouds his judgment concerning the Blight. At this point, do I think that either of them should be executed? No. Do I think that Loghain should be removed as regent so that he can't do any more damage. Yes. Do I think that Alistair should be removed from the Wardens? No. I think he should probably be severely reprimanded, but given a chance to get over it and continue with the mission. Alistair has proven himself a more capable Warden than Loghain has proven himself a capable politician. Just because he is a bad politician, doesn't mean he deserves execution. If someone executes another for personal reasons, then I just don't see how that person can take a morally superior stance.

Well like I said, I wasn't trying to argue that Loghain didn't love his country, it's just that his love of Ferelden was overshadowed by a burning hate of Orlais.

I agree with you that Alistair hates Loghain more than he loves the Wardens. As it goes, so does my PC. If Riordan had conscripted Loghain before she had a chance to have him executed, she would be using her treaties as leverage and commanding the armies under her own steam, instead of that of the Wardens. (I'm guessing that, since she didn't personally betray Alistair (and the fact she had coercion maxed out) she would have been able to keep Alistair around long enough to defeat the Blight before giving the Wardens the bird and leaving Ferelden and the Wardens forever.) Additionally, I don't see Alistair as risking the Blight overcoming Ferelden- or rather, he doesn't know what he's risking. He knows you have an army and has no idea about the price a Warden must pay to kill the archdemon. He's a single soldier deserting, leaving the Warden to command the armies, something he doesn't do at all in either case. Not that it makes it better, but it's different than Loghain knowing he's about to leave his country without a king.

[Willowhugger]

I´m too lazy to search for your reasons in other threads (probably they aren´t good anyways:P) so I´ll just say that I disagree.

After all, Cailan will be Emperor after the marriage, so it would be like the backwater conquering the superpower.

I'd love to see Tirigon's opinion, does he have a link?

Bluntly, if real politics is any indication, then Calian would be the one to move to Orlais rather than staying in his homeland.  At that point, any children would proceed to move to Orlais and be raised Orlaisians.  At that point, the situation would be pretty much identical to the fact the previous one where Felderan was subjugated by the Orlaisians. 

It would be SLIGHTLY better than before, as the Felderan nobility would still be intact but presumably, Calian would call on Orlaisian troops to suppress any dissent to his reign.

Edit:

I'd have loved a scene where you could tell Alistair you intend for Loghain to take the final blow and die.  Either that or persuade him that there's other reasons for what you did, maybe visit him in the tavern in Denerim.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 01 mai 2010 - 10:49 .

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...


Actually, Cailan was planning and working towards a permanent alliance with the Empire with him as Emperor at Celene´s side. That would have made Ferelden much stronger than Loghain´s racist hate against Orlais - even if it´s an understandable and justified hate unlike in real life racism.

Ugh, I have already argued that such a plan is a disaster in other threads. I really am too lazy to just copy paste.

But, and no offense, anyone with a tiny grasp in politics can not see this as a good idea. A backwater being merged with a superpower, will be like another invasion.
If anything, Loghain was right at the end.

I agree. Orlais could have just absorbed Ferelden, and Ferelen would be gone. This would be the most brilliant, sneaky, manipulative way for Orlais to take over Ferelden, and other than blind trust, I cannot think of a reason why anyone could see this as a good idea.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
After all, Cailan will be Emperor after the marriage, so it would be like the backwater conquering the superpower.

I am too lazy to even facepalm.

Quick summary.
Ferelden:
- backwater
- barbaric
- poor
- not many people there
- no religious influence, despite its history
- a nobility easily divided

Orlais:
- a superpower
- cultured
- rich
- demographically superior to Ferelden
- huge religious influence. The Chantry can validate mostly anything ORlais does.
- a united nobility.

Cailan:
- idiotic
- childish
- easily manipulated by Anora

Celene:
- a mastermind
- a genius
- described as being like Catherine the Great, who incidently killed her own husband.

Cailan being Emperor means Ferelden ivnades Orlais? Laughable. We all know who would have really ruled. Celene. Cailan would have nothing but a crown on his empty head, while his nation is aborbed by the strogner Empire.
Anyone who thinks this is a good idea, should not consider politics as future career.

[Raiil]

hpjay wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

If we're capable of doing a forced march to Denerim in two days time from Redcliffe, I'm pretty sure Eamon could have had his men to Ostagar just as quickly. Cailan was an idiot for not calling on Redcliffe.

Duncan actually made a comment that Eamon could have his forces at Ostagar in a week - not two days.   I agree if Eamon would on;y have needed two days then they should have waited.  But a whole week is a lot of time for the darkspawn to mass more troops.  I think a week may have been too long to wait for Eamon. 

That's probably doing a normal march- eight to ten hours a day at a regular pace, and the average person can cover 2-3 miles an hour. A forced march goes faster and walks for a much longer period of time. It's not ideal and you don't do it unless you have to, or you're instigating a death march like in the Greek genocide or the Bataan Death March.

[Willowhugger]

I agree. Orlais could have just absorbed Ferelden, and Ferelen would be gone. This would be the most brilliant, sneaky, manipulative way for Orlais to take over Ferelden, and other than blind trust, I cannot think of a reason why anyone could see this as a good idea.

In the case of Calian, he might simply not care about Felderan that much and want to become part of an empire.  His children would certainly benefit from it as well.  It's only if you consider Felderan independence a GOOD THING that it's a VERY bad idea.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Willowhugger wrote...
It's only if you consider Felderan independence a GOOD THING that it's a VERY bad idea.

No nation willingly parts with its independence and sovereignity, unless it's ruled by an idiot.

[Raiil]

Willowhugger wrote...

I agree. Orlais could have just absorbed Ferelden, and Ferelen would be gone. This would be the most brilliant, sneaky, manipulative way for Orlais to take over Ferelden, and other than blind trust, I cannot think of a reason why anyone could see this as a good idea.

In the case of Calian, he might simply not care about Felderan that much and want to become part of an empire.  His children would certainly benefit from it as well.  It's only if you consider Felderan independence a GOOD THING that it's a VERY bad idea.

Why wouldn't Ferelden independence be a good thing?

Also, a quick question- there seems to be an assumption that Cailan was planning to put Anora aside and marry Celene. Is there some proof of this? I'm well aware of the letters in RtO but that seemed to be weak speculation at most. I've seen nothing that really points to another Orlesian invasion.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I am too lazy to even facepalm.

Quick summary.
Ferelden:
- backwater
- barbaric
- poor
- not many people there
- no religious influence, despite its history
- a nobility easily divided

Orlais:
- a superpower
- cultured
- rich
- demographically superior to Ferelden
- huge religious influence. The Chantry can validate mostly anything ORlais does.
- a united nobility.

Cailan:
- idiotic
- childish
- easily manipulated by Anora

Celene:
- a mastermind
- a genius
- described as being like Catherine the Great, who incidently killed her own husband.

Cailan being Emperor means Ferelden ivnades Orlais? Laughable. We all know who would have really ruled. Celene. Cailan would have nothing but a crown on his empty head, while his nation is aborbed by the strogner Empire.
Anyone who thinks this is a good idea, should not consider politics as future career.

• Celene is a mastermind, aha. Proof?
• According to your description Ferelden sucks anyways.
• Cailan is not as easily to manipulate as you think. I think it was HIM who manipulated Anora - if she had controlled him he couldn´t have allied with Orlais, and Loghain could have convinced him to retreat at Ostagar.......

[Willowhugger]

Why wouldn't Ferelden independence be a good thing?

Also, a quick question- there seems to be an assumption that Cailan was planning to put Anora aside and marry Celene. Is there some proof of this? I'm well aware of the letters in RtO but that seemed to be weak speculation at most. I've seen nothing that really points to another Orlesian invasion.

Well in terms of opposing the Blight and the Qunari, who are planning on invading according to Sten, having a united Orlais and Fereldan is a very good thing.  Their combined military forces, adding in the various other races, could pretty much defeat any opponent they come across.

As for whether Celene or Calian were going to do it, that's only Loghain's suspicion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...
 I'm well aware of the letters in RtO but that seemed to be weak speculation at most. I've seen nothing that really points to another Orlesian invasion.

Other than the fact an Empress was referring to a king with no use of title, in a "uncharacteristically familiar tone"?
Well there is this "permanent alliance". There is Eamon's letter telling Cailan to leave Anora.

And the whole point of RtO is to reveal Cailan's "secret agenda". If it isn't marrying Celene, then I don't know what it is.

[Willowhugger]

No nation willingly parts with its independence and sovereignity, unless it's ruled by an idiot.

Plenty of territories did so actually as part of the Hapsburg Empire.  It also benefited them greatly.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No nation willingly parts with its independence and sovereignity, unless it's ruled by an idiot.

Ah the irony.........


A nation ruled by a monarch, be it king or Emperor, isn´t free anyways. I don´t see why an orlaisian ruler would be worse than a fereldan one. Either way the people is suppressed.

I mean, the Orlaisian nobility consists mainly of perverted, cruel asses, but look at the likes of Howe and Vaughan and you know the fereldan nobles aren´t generally better.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
Celene is a mastermind, aha. Proof

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Celene_I

Nobody survives the Imeprial Court of Orlais without being a mastermind. Plus, she is described as Catherine the Great.

Tirigon wrote...
According to your description Ferelden sucks anyways.

Yes, so let's allow another nation to conquer it, instead of try and be better while preserving our independence and sovereignity. Such a wonderful idea.

Tirigon wrote...
Cailan is not as easily to manipulate as you think. I think it was HIM who manipulated Anora - if she had controlled him he couldn´t have allied with Orlais, and Loghain could have convinced him to retreat at Ostagar.......
[/list]

That's because Celene I had already started with her manipulations.

Everyone knew it was Anora who ruled. Everyone even Eamon knew Anora played Cailan like a toy. What chances does he stand with Celene.

[Tirigon]

Willowhugger wrote...

No nation willingly parts with its independence and sovereignity, unless it's ruled by an idiot.

Plenty of territories did so actually as part of the Hapsburg Empire.  It also benefited them greatly.

Did it? I was thinking about this too but I´m not sure if it is really a good point. The only consequence of this I remember is the first World War.....

[phaonica]

Valentia X wrote...

Additionally, I don't see Alistair as risking the Blight overcoming Ferelden- or rather, he doesn't know what he's risking.

If Alistair had known, do you not think he would have deserted anyway? He is not only capable of abandoning the Wardens over the Loghain decision, but also a PC he is in love with.