325 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Yes, so let's allow another nation to conquer it, instead of try and be better while preserving our independence and sovereignity. Such a wonderful idea.

Why is Fereldan sovereignity so important?

Everyone knew it was Anora who ruled. Everyone even Eamon knew Anora played Cailan like a toy. What chances does he stand with Celene.

Maybe he just let it seem that way. the true genius is the one the people don´t know about. It is actually quite cunning to give the impression Anora rules, so he has more time for the important business.

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
 I'm well aware of the letters in RtO but that seemed to be weak speculation at most. I've seen nothing that really points to another Orlesian invasion.

Other than the fact an Empress was referring to a king with no use of title, in a "uncharacteristically familiar tone"?
Well there is this "permanent alliance". There is Eamon's letter telling Cailan to leave Anora.

And the whole point of RtO is to reveal Cailan's "secret agenda". If it isn't marrying Celene, then I don't know what it is.

Hmm. I can see where it can be construed as such, but I've got to be honest and say that I don't think that marriage was an idea between Cailan and Celene. It would be just as mutually beneficial to have a permanent alliance with regards to trade. And even if Cailan really is that much of an idiot, Celene's not. She has to know that marrying Cailan and trying to absorb Ferelden in any way is a horrible idea. There's also the fact that Cailan seemed to get pretty pissed at Eamon for even suggesting he set Anora aside.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Willowhugger wrote...

No nation willingly parts with its independence and sovereignity, unless it's ruled by an idiot.

Plenty of territories did so actually as part of the Hapsburg Empire.  It also benefited them greatly.

They never had a nation state to being with, unless invaded.

Furthermore, the rise of nationalism in the Habsburg Empire was making it untenable either way. I usggest reading the Red Prince by Tymothy Snyder (edited sorry, made a mistake of the name). Interesting read on the subject.

Tirigon wrote...
Ah the irony.........

A nation ruled by a monarch, be it king or Emperor, isn´t free anyways. I don´t see why an orlaisian ruler would be worse than a fereldan one. Either way the people is suppressed.

I mean, the Orlaisian nobility consists mainly of perverted, cruel asses, but look at the likes of Howe and Vaughan and you know the fereldan nobles aren´t generally better.

Because people would rather be ruled by a domestic tyrant than a foreign one. That's history 101.

Furthermore, the Ferelden monarchy is less oppressive than Orlais. That's the hwole point of the Stolen Throne.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mai 2010 - 11:06 .

[Raiil]

phaonica wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Additionally, I don't see Alistair as risking the Blight overcoming Ferelden- or rather, he doesn't know what he's risking.

If Alistair had known, do you not think he would have deserted anyway? He is not only capable of abandoning the Wardens over the Loghain decision, but also a PC he is in love with.

No, I don't. I think he would have ended things with the PC, but actually left? Not if he understood that it might fall to him to literally end the Blight in one fell swoop.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Yes, so let's allow another nation to conquer it, instead of try and be better while preserving our independence and sovereignity. Such a wonderful idea.

Why is Fereldan sovereignity so important?

To you, it may not be.

For a nation it is. And for anyone who loves Ferelden, it is.
 

Everyone knew it was Anora who ruled. Everyone even Eamon knew Anora played Cailan like a toy. What chances does he stand with Celene.

Maybe he just let it seem that way. the true genius is the one the people don´t know about. It is actually quite cunning to give the impression Anora rules, so he has more time for the important business.

Assumption based on nothing.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

A nation ruled by a monarch, be it king or Emperor, isn´t free anyways. I don´t see why an orlaisian ruler would be worse than a fereldan one. Either way the people is suppressed.

I mean, the Orlaisian nobility consists mainly of perverted, cruel asses, but look at the likes of Howe and Vaughan and you know the fereldan nobles aren´t generally better.

Wow, your character must hate Ferelden. Why do you play this game?

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

If Alistair had known, do you not think he would have deserted anyway? He is not only capable of abandoning the Wardens over the Loghain decision, but also a PC he is in love with.

I would have done the same. Or rather, i wouldn´t on account of being less scrupulous. i would have pretended to agree and killed Loghain in Camp.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

Wow, your character must hate Ferelden. Why do you play this game?

Ferelden? No.
Ferelden is a name on a map, nothing more. You do neither love nor hate it.


The Ferelden nobility? Yes.
Only a dead noble is a good noble.

My Warden fights for the people, and for himself.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...
And even if Cailan really is that much of an idiot, Celene's not. She has to know that marrying Cailan and trying to absorb Ferelden in any way is a horrible idea. There's also the fact that Cailan seemed to get pretty pissed at Eamon for even suggesting he set Anora aside.

Why was it stupid for Orlais? It was a stroke of genius. Ferelden back into their hands, without much fighting.

Cailan was pissed at Eamon a year ago. Back then, he had not talked to Celene.

And this permanent alliances does not excuse the fact Celene was talkign to Cailan in an uncharacteristically familiar tone. No rulers talk to each other this way.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mai 2010 - 11:11 .

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Why is Fereldan sovereignity so important?

To you, it may not be.

For a nation it is. And for anyone who loves Ferelden, it is.

This answer means essentially: "Because I feel that way, there is no real reason."
A valid opinion, but no way any more true than mine.


 

Assumption based on nothing.

So I did  what you do in every Loghain defend thread.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

I would have done the same. Or rather, i wouldn´t on account of being less scrupulous. i would have pretended to agree and killed Loghain in Camp.

Oooh, cunning. Manipulative. Ruthless. You would have lied and then betrayed him. Nice. Sounds like something Anora would do...

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

I would have done the same. Or rather, i wouldn´t on account of being less scrupulous. i would have pretended to agree and killed Loghain in Camp.

Oooh, cunning. Manipulative. Ruthless. You would have lied and then betrayed him. Nice. Sounds like something Anora would do...

Wouldn´t that make you Loghain-lovers like me?B)B):P:P

[BlazingSpeed]

Once again I don't think that Loghain's actions were justified instead of posting my Loghain was planning this for awhile because of the Orlisians possibly coming back due to Calian's alliance (Loghian even says it if you spare him...) due to the timing of poisoning the Arl happening within the week that Calian wanted to wait for the Arl theory from Gamefaqs again.

I'lll just say that Ostagar MAY have been debatable and I say may because Loghain foolishly thought that the Darkspawn were just on a raid even though Calian's forces had pushed them back THREE times only to have the darkspawn come back with more friends the darkspawn are stupid three one after the other large organized assaults should tell you something (not to mention the Ogres and Emissary's appearing a great General should at least know some history...). 

If they had not fought Ostagar (yes many soldiers died but plenty of darkspawn died as well...) then Lothering and everything else would have been overun a lot sooner and many more cillvians would have died I think that's what Calian wanted to prevent.

Everthing else that Loghain did were just stupid prideful decisions that brought about his own damn downfall then Loghain has the nerve to try and down play it at the Landsmeet Anora isn't any better in my book she set up that whole Howe incident (Loghain admit's that too...) which didn't happen until mid game anyway's (opps wrong topic....)

If Loghain did have the good of the nation in mind he would have made Anora regent and rallied everyone together but Loghain thought that the darkspawn would just go home after Ostagar and that his betraying Calian (the codex said BETRAYED and please don't bother quoting Conner's mom...) would be covered up meanwhile Loghian could go and kill more Orlesians.

Loghain dug his own grave foot by foot,

Now, I'm going to play Origins ( finish City Elf origin...) for the first time in about two months well maybe later on... 

Modifié par BlazingSpeed, 01 mai 2010 - 11:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Why is Fereldan sovereignity so important?

To you, it may not be.

For a nation it is. And for anyone who loves Ferelden, it is.

This answer means essentially: "Because I feel that way, there is no real reason."
A valid opinion, but no way any more true than mine.

And when did I say my opinion is more valid?

However, for anyone who loves Ferelden and seeks to preserve its sovereignity and independence, Cailan's plan was beyond idiotic.
If it's someone who doesn't care, then he wouldn't care either way anyways.

[Willowhugger]

This answer means essentially: "Because I feel that way, there is no real reason."
A valid opinion, but no way any more true than mine.

A more valid note is the Orlaisians are an Empire that has a culture of exploitation and self-entitlement amongst its nobility.  We see that with the previous false King of Felderan, the Baroness, and the girl in the marketplace talking about chevaliers raping with impunity.  Also, they're a deadly decadent court with lots of ridiculous levels of intrigue.

Feldaran's people are not likely to benefit by being absorbed into such a dysfunctional union.

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
And even if Cailan really is that much of an idiot, Celene's not. She has to know that marrying Cailan and trying to absorb Ferelden in any way is a horrible idea. There's also the fact that Cailan seemed to get pretty pissed at Eamon for even suggesting he set Anora aside.

Why was it stupid for Orlais? It was a stroke of genius. Ferelden back into their hands, without much fighting.

Cailan was pissed at Eamon a year ago. Back then, he had not talked to Celene.

And this permanent alliances does not excuse the fact Celene was talkign to Cailan in an uncharacteristically familiar tone. No rulers talk to each other this way.

Stupid in that even Celene admits that it is unwise to underestimate Ferelden, and to assume that they're going to take being absorbed into Orlais without much of a fuss. They like their current Queen well enough- at the Landsmeet, the Banns can either throw in their lot with Anora, or with the Warden, not Alistair in particular, although his lineage obviously was a strong point in their favour. According to the condex, she views them as barbaric, dog lovers, and able to not only cast off Orlais, but the Tevinter Imperium in the past. 

There's also the issue of whether or not Celene wants to absorb Ferelden back into Orlais. Not saying she doesn't, but it's a blank- we don't know.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...
Wouldn´t that make you Loghain-lovers like me?B)B):P:P

Only if you agreed that it was okay when Anora did it too.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

This answer means essentially: "Because I feel that way, there is no real reason."
A valid opinion, but no way any more true than mine.

And when did I say my opinion is more valid?
 

You didn´t, but you tried to prove me wrong. And you talked about sovereignity as if it was an objective good.

[Willowhugger]

You didn´t, but you tried to prove me wrong. And you talked about sovereignity as if it was an objective good.

Historically, sovereignty benefits people a great deal.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...
Stupid in that even Celene admits that it is unwise to underestimate Ferelden, and to assume that they're going to take being absorbed into Orlais without much of a fuss. They like their current Queen well enough- at the Landsmeet, the Banns can either throw in their lot with Anora, or with the Warden, not Alistair in particular, although his lineage obviously was a strong point in their favour. According to the condex, she views them as barbaric, dog lovers, and able to not only cast off Orlais, but the Tevinter Imperium in the past. 

The plan needed Cailan to work. A Queen consort (Anora) and an unrecognized bastard (Alistair) were mostly irrelevent.

And if it was Orlais that saved Ferelden from the blight, as it was planned. Then maybe this "permanent alliance" would have been more accetpable.

But we know too little to say much from Celene's perspective and what sh ewas planing exactly. But her marrying Cailan is almost certain for me.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Wouldn´t that make you Loghain-lovers like me?B)B):P:P

Only if you agreed that it was okay when Anora did it too.

I hate Anora, but I also respect her., because she is a worthy enemy.

The thing is, I do not hate her for her actions, but for taking them against me. If she´d use trickery to help me it´d be fine.
So: her attitude is ok, but she chose the wrong side. Oh, and she´s ugly:sick:

[Tirigon]

Willowhugger wrote...

Historically, sovereignty benefits people a great deal.

How?

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Assumption based on nothing.

So I did  what you do in every Loghain defend thread.

I think we get *far* more insight into Loghain's character than Cailan's. From what little was presented to us about Cailan, nothing convinces me that he was a brilliant mastermind. Especially the part where he is going on and on about personal Glory, when everyone else seems to think that the darkspawn are serious business.

[Raiil]

Willowhugger wrote...

You didn´t, but you tried to prove me wrong. And you talked about sovereignity as if it was an objective good.

Historically, sovereignty benefits people a great deal.

That... is assuming a lot, really. If the monarch is benevolent, then chances are greater that most people were generally happy. But it's not given. I mean, Catherine the Great was pretty good in terms of diplomatic dealings and such, but I'm sure the serfs felt otherwise.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

This answer means essentially: "Because I feel that way, there is no real reason."
A valid opinion, but no way any more true than mine.

And when did I say my opinion is more valid?
 

You didn´t, but you tried to prove me wrong. And you talked about sovereignity as if it was an objective good.

In politics and political science and hsistorically, of course it is.
You can't rule a nation and not care about its sovereignity. All political theories and paradigms (Realist. Neo-Realist. Neo classical Realist. Even Liberals and neo-liberals grudgingly admit that State soviereignity is not something they can part with) agree that sovereignity and independence, coupeld with security, are the nubmer one things all State seek to preserve.