These threads always spiral out of control.
Was Loghain's rebellion justified?
Débuté par
Willowhugger
, avril 30 2010 11:04
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#177
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 01:54
sleepingbelow
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Vicious wrote...
These threads always spiral out of control.
#178
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 01:57
thegreateski
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Great. Now I have to watch that movie again.
#179
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 02:05
Willowhugger
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Tirigon wrote...
But I don´t care for the country. I care for the people. And I don´t see the difference between a Fereldan tyrant and an Orlaisian one.
I think that the indications are that Fereldan is SLIGHTLY better in terms of human rights than Orlais.
But they don't have a "good vs. evil kingdom" going on either.
In general, even "nice" nations adopt brutal tactics when occupying a place.
#180
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 02:13
Tirigon
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phaonica wrote...
Tirigon wrote...
But I don´t care for the country. I care for the people. And I don´t see the difference between a Fereldan tyrant and an Orlaisian one.
I don't understand the distinction here. The people make up the country. We're not talking about saving the land that the people live on, we're talking about saving the people who make up the country of Ferelden.
But I just don´t understand why the Fereldans suffer less if a homegrown dictator like Loghain kills them or sells them into slavery than if the Orlesians do.....
#181
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 02:13
Tirigon
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Willowhugger wrote...
I think that the indications are that Fereldan is SLIGHTLY better in terms of human rights than Orlais.
Stress is on the SLIGHTLY. It´s a rather little slightly, that´s for sure.
#182
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 02:17
phaonica
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Tirigon wrote...
Willowhugger wrote...
I think that the indications are that Fereldan is SLIGHTLY better in terms of human rights than Orlais.
Stress is on the SLIGHTLY. It´s a rather little slightly, that´s for sure.
For all that the conditions for everyone aren't great in Ferelden right now, there is indication that they were way worse during the last Orlesian occupation.
#183
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 02:17
KnightofPhoenix
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Tirigon wrote...
But I just don´t understand why the Fereldans suffer less if a homegrown dictator like Loghain kills them or sells them into slavery than if the Orlesians do.....
It was a time of war.
And only the elves were sold. The rest of the population wasn't and they couldn't care less.
#184
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 02:21
Tirigon
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It was a time of war.
And only the elves were sold. The rest of the population wasn't and they couldn't care less.
It would not have been a time of war with a few legions of Chevaliers to stop the darkspawn at Ostagar, thus preventing a civil war.
And I think the population does care: Slavery is forbidden, and every person with the slightest bit of intelligence will know that once you start with a few you can extend on others rather easily.
Modifié par Tirigon, 02 mai 2010 - 02:22 .
#185
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 02:24
phaonica
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Tirigon wrote...
It would not have been a time of war with a few legions of Chevaliers to stop the darkspawn at Ostagar, thus preventing a civil war.
The war would be over, Ferelden would be gone, and *everyone* would live under Orlais oppression instead of the few suffering Ferelden oppression.
#186
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 02:25
KnightofPhoenix
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Tirigon wrote...
KnightofPhoenix wrote...
It was a time of war.
And only the elves were sold. The rest of the population wasn't and they couldn't care less.
It would not have been a time of war with a few legions of Chevaliers to stop the darkspawn at Ostagar, thus preventing a civil war.
And if they conquered Ferelden, the Chevaliers would have been worse, as history as shown.
Orlais afterall conquered Nevarra after freeing it from the Blight.
Tirigon wrote...
And I think the population does care: Slavery is forbidden, and every person with the slightest bit of intelligence will know that once you start with a few you can extend on others rather easily.
Illegal, and the landsmeet can still accept Loghain evev if they know.
And lol yes human history is all about this "if they do it to other, they might do it to me" logic. hahaha
The masses don't think like that.
Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 mai 2010 - 02:25 .
#187
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 02:27
thegreateski
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Well apparently the Orlesians invaded Ferelden for ****s and giggles last time. I'm fairly certain that they would not leave had they been invited in.
#188
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 02:47
Willowhugger
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Yes, bad as it is, Loghain enslaved ELVES.
Not humans.
Not humans.
#189
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 02:59
phaonica
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Willowhugger wrote...
Yes, bad as it is, Loghain enslaved ELVES.
Not humans.
I won't say that it is somehow more okay to sell elves than humans. Only that it was a small part of the population. If the slavers came in and said, "hey, there is an out of the way, obscure village that is about to be ransacked by darkspawn, we'll give you some gold if you'll let us "evacuate" the villagers." That would not have been any better.
Modifié par phaonica, 02 mai 2010 - 03:00 .
#190
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 03:51
Willowhugger
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I won't say that it is somehow more okay to sell elves than humans. Only that it was a small part of the population. If the slavers came in and said, "hey, there is an out of the way, obscure village that is about to be ransacked by darkspawn, we'll give you some gold if you'll let us "evacuate" the villagers." That would not have been any better.
Yes, I think Loghain's logic was basically the idea that the entire situation had gone to pot at that point. He needed money to raise an army to start the Blight, the Alienage was destroyed, and had also just revolted against the Arl (with good reason). I wonder if Howe was the one who made the arrangements. Howe seems to have had some scruples to begin with but I think he seems to be more recently cast as the dog kicking bastard of the game.
#191
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 09:37
Costin_Razvan
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Tirigon: You say your character fights for the people. How can you then side with a complete and utter ignorant who does not even know what is going in the alienage? How you can side with a moron who would let his nation be merged into Orlais?
If you care for the people then the LAST thing you would do is allow Orlais. You know the same country who treats elves like dirt ( even worse then Loghain does ), the same country which allows chevaliers to rape, and even considers it treason for anyone to defend himself/herself against it.
If you care for the people then the LAST thing you would do is allow Orlais. You know the same country who treats elves like dirt ( even worse then Loghain does ), the same country which allows chevaliers to rape, and even considers it treason for anyone to defend himself/herself against it.
#192
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 09:44
Apophis2412
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Costin_Razvan wrote...
If you care for the people then the LAST thing you would do is allow Orlais. You know the same country who treats elves like dirt ( even worse then Loghain does ), the same country which allows chevaliers to rape, and even considers it treason for anyone to defend himself/herself against it.
You must also take into account that both countries have very different cultures. For example in Orlais the nobles see their privileged position as their divine right, while Ferelden a noble has to earn his position by being a good ruler and defending his people.
Making an Orlesian noble a ruler of a Fereldan piece of land would only lead to conflicts. The lord woud demand that his people automatically loyal to him, while the people would demand that their lord be automatically loyal to them.
Modifié par Apophis2412, 02 mai 2010 - 09:46 .
#193
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 10:05
nos_astra
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Simple world view? Orlais = evil, Ferelden = good?Costin_Razvan wrote...
If you care for the people then the LAST thing you would do is allow Orlais. You know the same country who treats elves like dirt (even worse then Loghain does), the same country which allows chevaliers to rape, and even considers it treason for anyone to defend himself/herself against it.
"Ferelden" allows pigs like Vaughn to rape and I'm sure there are not only elves on his list. "Ferelden" also also allows Howe to torture innocents.
Sorry, am I missing something there?
Modifié par klarabella, 02 mai 2010 - 10:06 .
#194
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 10:13
Costin_Razvan
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Simple world view? Orlais = evil, Ferelden = good?
Good and Evil don't exist in politics, anyone who declares otherwise has a narrow viewpoint. I was simply pointing out it would be preferable for the Fereldan people to not be merged into Orlais.
Fereldan doesn't allow anything, both those cases were meet with great outrage by people. If Vaughn had did such a thing in Orlais no one would have been capable to do anything about it.
Every Chevalier in Orlais is allowed to do ANYTHING they please ( except against the Chantry/Nobles )
Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 mai 2010 - 10:15 .
#195
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 10:17
CalJones
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Vaughn's actions were illegal, as were Howe's. They both got away with it, for a time, but only for a time. The Chevaliers, on the other hand, are permitted to take any woman (or man, for that matter) that they desire. As Liselle says, it is their right.
#196
Guest_Massamies_*
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 10:27
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thegreateski wrote...
Well apparently the Orlesians invaded Ferelden for ****s and giggles last time. I'm fairly certain that they would not leave had they been invited in.
Most likely they would have left. Since it is only 30 years since occupation, they haven't forgotten that Ferelden is not worth the effort for the minor gain. Also at the end of the blight they could have easily invaded if they wished but they didn't. Last occupation probably tied so much resources that they lost mineral rich hills that actually are worth something to Nevarra.
Modifié par Massamies, 02 mai 2010 - 10:27 .
#197
Guest_Massamies_*
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 10:29
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Selling elves to slavery is more of a sign of arrogance (his arrogant defense speech about that where he almost makes it sound like he thinks they are better of in Tevinter, and in addition probably part of this silly math to which some people here seem to agree that saving some people gives you license to destroy other) and terrible judgement. Selling dozens of elves gives nothing compared to possible tarifs, taxes, or purchase power from minor coinage debasement.
Modifié par Massamies, 02 mai 2010 - 10:55 .
#198
Guest_Massamies_*
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 10:38
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Cailan's secret agenda could be just alliance with Orlais, that is secret enough. That dumping Anora could have been different thing, maybe cause of that fight over queen that Cailan's guard mentions in Ostagar. The letters being in same place is no proof, only person in game who would probably spread around letters to different spots according who the letter came from would be Sandal. Cailan was uncharasterically familiar to all player characters. He probably asked Celene to drop formalities in some of his previous letters to her. The letters are meant to be seen only by monarchs and their possible scribes if they use them, so they are free to write as informally as they wish if both agree to it. Also Celene was crowned between final chapter and epilogue of the Calling novel, so she is getting closer to 40, most likely married already if she is planning to have children. Also Cailan dumping Anora due to infertility and marrying 40 year old woman would ****** off even those who want Anora dumped due to infertility.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Valentia X wrote...
I'm well aware of the letters in RtO but that seemed to be weak speculation at most. I've seen nothing that really points to another Orlesian invasion.
Other than the fact an Empress was referring to a king with no use of title, in a "uncharacteristically familiar tone"?
Well there is this "permanent alliance". There is Eamon's letter telling Cailan to leave Anora.
And the whole point of RtO is to reveal Cailan's "secret agenda". If it isn't marrying Celene, then I don't know what it is.
Modifié par Massamies, 02 mai 2010 - 10:43 .
#199
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 12:04
Tirigon
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He cares, but his guards prevent him from doing something about it. He IS actually interested in what happens there, but his guards don´t let him in.Costin_Razvan wrote...
Tirigon: You say your character fights for the people. How can you then side with a complete and utter ignorant who does not even know what is going in the alienage? How you can side with a moron who would let his nation be merged into Orlais?
Not worse than Loghain. Both enslave elves, but the Orlaisians don´t sell them to blood mages, at least. And they aren´t as poor as in Ferelden. While an Orlaisisan elf servant doesn´t have a good life it still seems better than what the Fereldans get.If you care for the people then the LAST thing you would do is allow Orlais. You know the same country who treats elves like dirt ( even worse then Loghain does ),
Yea, that´s bad. But to my City Elf that´s only a rumour, while she got banned from her home for defending herself against being raped by a Fereldan noble. So WHERE IS THE F*CKING DIFFERENCE?! The Fereldan nobility does exactly the same - only with a little more fun by torture, in howe´s case.the same country which allows chevaliers to rape, and even considers it treason for anyone to defend himself/herself against it.
#200
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 12:06
Tirigon
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Just proves that the Fereldan nobles are asses and everyone is better of when they´re dead.KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Tirigon wrote...
And I think the population does care: Slavery is forbidden, and every person with the slightest bit of intelligence will know that once you start with a few you can extend on others rather easily.
Illegal, and the landsmeet can still accept Loghain evev if they know.
And lol yes human history is all about this "if they do it to other, they might do it to me" logic. hahaha
The masses don't think like that.
Every resistance is about that - or why do you think why some Germans opposed Hitler even though they belonged to the "arian" race and wouldn´t have suffered, had they accepted the fascist rule?
Of course, most people don´t think so. But most people are idiots, so what?
