325 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Fereldan doesn't allow anything, both those cases were meet with great outrage by people. If Vaughn had did such a thing in Orlais no one would have been capable to do anything about it.

Every Chevalier in Orlais is allowed to do ANYTHING they please ( except against the Chantry/Nobles )

Noone did anything about Vaughan except for the City Elf warden, and he / she would have been executed for it if Duncan hadn´t invoked the right of Conscription.

Sorry, but your arguments are stupid.
While the rumours might seem to support your view actually playing the game proves it wrong.

[Tirigon]

Apophis2412 wrote...


Making an Orlesian noble a ruler of a Fereldan piece of land would only lead to conflicts. The lord woud demand that his people automatically loyal to him, while the people would demand that their lord be automatically loyal to them.

I played Awakening as Orlaisian Warden and by the end it turned out my PC - again, an Orlaisian!! - was the best ruler Amaranthine ever had, and well liked by the people.

[Costin_Razvan]

He cares, but his guards prevent him from doing something about it. He IS actually interested in what happens there, but his guards don´t let him in.

Right, so he cares but his guards don't let him. What kind of bull**** excuse if that for a King who should be in command?! He either doesn't give a ****, chooses to ignore it or is an incompetent ****. Your pick here.

Not worse than Loghain. Both enslave elves, but the Orlaisians don´t sell them to blood mages, at least. And they aren´t as poor as in Ferelden. While an Orlaisisan elf servant doesn´t have a good life it still seems better than what the Fereldans get.

You mean the Orlesian Capital City Alienage were 10.000 elves live in the space the size of Denerim's Market Square? And why do you think Orlais doesn't sell slave to Blood Mages? Tevinter is the only country interested in buying them.

Yea, that´s bad. But to my City Elf that´s only a rumour, while she got banned from her home for defending herself against being raped by a Fereldan noble. So WHERE IS THE F*CKING DIFFERENCE?! The Fereldan nobility does exactly the same - only with a little more fun by torture, in howe´s case.

No that's not a rumor for a PC. Seriously go talk with the woman who was raped by chevaliers in Denerim. She tells it as a matter of fact, not rumor.



I also love it how you generalize the Fereldan nobility based on the the actions of two men ( and btw there is no evidence Howe raped women ). Perhaps Teagan, Eamon and Cailan are also like that, yes? Lovely.

Noone did anything about Vaughan except for the City Elf warden, and he / she would have been executed for it if Duncan hadn´t invoked the right of Conscription.



Sorry, but your arguments are stupid.

While the rumours might seem to support your view actually playing the game proves it wrong.

Let yourself and Soris take the blame for it. You get conscripted while Soris get's sent to the dungeon where he is not killed. Just because you have a perception over a situation does not make it true.



Some people have the moronic perception that the allies in WW2 were all good guys. Let's just ignore the war crimes the British, Americans and especially the Russians did, by all means.



Using a single perception in a argument makes it poor.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Right, so he cares but his guards don't let him. What kind of bull**** excuse if that for a King who should be in command?! He either doesn't give a ****, chooses to ignore it or is an incompetent ****. Your pick here.

A king has less power than you´d think.

You mean the Orlesian Capital City Alienage were 10.000 elves live in the space the size of Denerim's Market Square? And why do you think Orlais doesn't sell slave to Blood Mages? Tevinter is the only country interested in buying them.

Never heard of that. Source?

No that's not a rumor for a PC. Seriously go talk with the woman who was raped by chevaliers in Denerim. She tells it as a matter of fact, not rumor.

Yea because she knows EVERY chevalier................

I also love it how you generalize the Fereldan nobility based on the the actions of two men ( and btw there is no evidence Howe raped women ). Perhaps Teagan, Eamon and Cailan are also like that, yes? Lovely.

Eamon is an ass.

Let yourself and Soris take the blame for it. You get conscripted while Soris get's sent to the dungeon where he is not killed. Just because you have a perception over a situation does not make it true.

So he gets tortured. Yea, sooo much better as reward for doing the right thing.

Some people have the moronic perception that the allies in WW2 were all good guys. Let's just ignore the war crimes the British, Americans and especially the Russians did, by all means.

Totally off topic, but alright.....
I know quite well of the sh*t the "good guys" did. I´m German, that means I have to learn about WW2 every year in school.....
But, as a matter of fact, the Wehrmacht was much worse than the US, British and even Russian armies.

[sylvanaerie]

Willowhugger wrote...

Well we all know it was a spectacular failure.

However, we now know that King Calian actually was going to sell the country down the river.  He was going to wed himself to the Empress of Orlais and pretty much doom Fereldan to once more becoming a tribute paying subsidary of the Empire.  We also know that Loghain actually didn't abandon Calian deliberately, it was because the Darkspawn were overwhelming.  All of Loghain's subsequent evil deeds can be interpreted as him attempting to secure the kingdom in the wake of the monarch's changing.  

Plus, he would have redressed some wrongs like the Chantry's oppression of the Mages.

So what do you think?

I doubt Cailan planned on wedding Celene.  The whole crumpled note from Eamon and Cailan's response to Duncan's offer from Eamon for troops (Which were only a week away) tends to make me feel Cailan didn't like that suggestion.

As Loghain had no prior knowledge of these correspondences I don't think the whole Ostagar debacle was planned in that it was a civil war.  The PC/Alistair lit the signal fire too late and perhaps Loghain felt the situation was lost by then.  (I can't believe I am actually arguing in his favor)  I do think it was poor planning overall that contributed to the mess and that there are huge mistakes on BOTH sides of the argument (Cailan's glory seeking/Loghain's Orlesian hatred) but I don't think it was planned as a civil war.

Loghain should have regrouped after and sent for reinforcements and held the line at Ostagar (which would have been a LOT more defensible than just waltzing off ACROSS the entire nation to Denerim and taking the banns' soldiers with him) to place himself on the throne and demanding they do what he says.  In this is where I think he made his first HUGE mistake.  Anora is quite capable of being queen (she proves this in her epilogue) and he should have stayed as her general NOT made himself her regent.  The king's corpse was barely cold and it made him seem like a powermad despot.  Of course the bannorn are going to rebel.

So...the civil war...was it justified? In my opinion no.

[Costin_Razvan]

A king has less power than you´d think.

Right.....so the king who can tell Loghain to shove it, Loghain who can't do anything about it without resorting to treason, has no power to tell his guards to let him in Alienage. Sorry but your logic fails

Never heard of that. Source?

Codex, Wiki for Alienage Culture.

Yea because she knows EVERY chevalier................

What she knows are the laws of Orlais. She was from there and was almost convicted of teason for not allowing a chevalier to rape her. They CAN do it, I didn't say they ALL do it.

Eamon is an ass.

A lot of people are asses, but from that to draw the conclusion they rape and torture is a LONG way just because they are nobles. What about Teagen? Is he an ass and a rapist as well or he is somehow special?

So he gets tortured. Yea, sooo much better as reward for doing the right thing.

No. He get's sent to prison for invading the Arl's castle and killing his guards and even the Arl's son. You might look at it that you were saving Shiani and the other women, but you still killed people and that is against the law. There is no evidence he was tortured, and there is no evidence that Arl Urien ( Vaughn's father ) would have allowed his son to go unpunished for it. ( Vaughn only did it when his father was at Ostagar ) It is all speculation.

Totally off topic, but alright.....
I know quite well of the sh*t the "good guys" did. I´m German, that means I have to learn about WW2 every year in school.....
But, as a matter of fact, the Wehrmacht was much worse than the US, British and even Russian armies.

Sure...perhaps you can look at this: http://en.wikipedia....ng_World_War_II

Oh I know what the Wehrmacht did in WW2. I am a Romanian myself and have studied the eastern front in particular quite extensively.

The difference between Germans and Russians, and why generally Germany is viewed more badly then the USSR is because Germany did sign the Geneva and Hague conventions. The USSR on the other hand did no sign the Geneva one, and did not recognize the Hague Conventions signed by the Russian Empire.

That does not mean however that Russian committed less crimes then the Germans, not by any means. In fact the Russians committed far more.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 mai 2010 - 02:38 .

[sleepingbelow]

I declare Godwin.

[snapper.fishes]

Let's not continue the discussion on WWII, shall we?

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

A king has less power than you´d think.

Right.....so the king who can tell Loghain to shove it, Loghain who can't do anything about it without resorting to treason, has no power to tell his guards to let him in Alienage. Sorry but your logic fails

Get some knowledge of real life. A King can´t do things that are "below him" such as visiting the ghettoes (and that´s what the Alienages are in fact). In many cultures a king can´t even talk to his people because they are too far below him.

Codex, Wiki for Alienage Culture.

These codexes seem to say many things that aren´t represented in the game then.

What she knows are the laws of Orlais. She was from there and was almost convicted of teason for not allowing a chevalier to rape her. They CAN do it, I didn't say they ALL do it.

And I´m not arguing that. Hell, after hearing that story my PC would personally kill every Chevalier she meets, but my point is that the Fereldans aren´t better. Afaik both Vaughan and Howe are Fereldans, not Orlaisians.

A lot of people are asses, but from that to draw the conclusion they rape and torture is a LONG way just because they are nobles. What about Teagen? Is he an ass and a rapist as well or he is somehow special?

The fact that a few exceptions aren´t asses doesn´t excuse the others, does it?

No. He get's sent to prison for invading the Arl's castle and killing his guards and even the Arl's son. You might look at it that you were saving Shiani and the other women, but you still killed people and that is against the law. There is no evidence he was tortured, and there is no evidence that Arl Urien ( Vaughn's father ) would have allowed his son to go unpunished for it. ( Vaughn only did it when his father was at Ostagar ) It is all speculation.

 
The guards started with the killing. A law that forbids killing rapists and murderers in self-defense is unjust and oppressive.

Sure...perhaps you can look at this: http://en.wikipedia....ng_World_War_II

Oh I know what the Wehrmacht did in WW2. I am a Romanian myself and have studied the eastern front in particular quite extensively.

The difference between Germans and Russians, and why generally Germany is viewed more badly then the USSR is because Germany did sign the Geneva and Hague conventions. The USSR on the other hand did no sign the Geneva one, and did not recognize the Hague Conventions signed by the Russian Empire.

That does not mean however that Russian committed less crimes then the Germans, not by any means. In fact the Russians committed far more.

I´d like to know what makes you think that. The Russians didn´t slaughter entire villages. And the Germans started, so they are worse. The Russians only took revenge. The russians had reason to hate the Germans after more than 10 million Russians were murdered. The Germans had no reason at all for their crimes.

[Tirigon]

@ Sleepingbelow: Please don´t post senseless pictures. All they do is making other people question your IQ, especially with these insanely accurate and correct grammar.



Also, it is common knowledge that people posting pictures of cats in threads like this one are usually trolls with an IQ below 50.

[sleepingbelow]

Tirigon wrote...

@ Sleepingbelow: Please don´t post senseless pictures. All they do is making other people question your IQ, especially with these insanely accurate and correct grammar.

Also, it is common knowledge that people posting pictures of cats in threads like this one are usually trolls with an IQ below 50.

Could I perhaps direct you gentlemen elsewhere?
Familiarize yourself with common memes.  The cat refers to the fact that you are hijacking a thread in an incredibly obnoxious manner.

EDIT- Seriously, you're baffled by the webbernet grammar?  What is this, 1995?  What is especially delicious is your misuse of grammar in your attempt to chastise me.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 02 mai 2010 - 03:45 .

[Tirigon]

sleepingbelow wrote...


Could I perhaps direct you gentlemen elsewhere?
Familiarize yourself with common memes.  The cat refers to the fact that you are hijacking a thread in an incredibly obnoxious manner.

I simply responded to a post, it wasn´t me who started the WW2 discussion.

And the cat spampictures suck, no matter what common meme it is.

[sleepingbelow]

Tirigon wrote...
I simply responded to a post, it wasn´t me who started the WW2 discussion.

Don't
feed
trolls.

He's been bringing up the WWII in multiple threads hoping people will bite.

EDIT- By "he" I mean Costin.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 02 mai 2010 - 04:02 .

[Tirigon]

sleepingbelow wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
I simply responded to a post, it wasn´t me who started the WW2 discussion.

Don't
feed
trolls.

He's been bringing up the WWII in multiple threads hoping people will bite.

Sorry, I didn´t know that, so I just assumed he was interested in a discussion.

[Carmen_Willow]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

but obviously without any kind of sensible fallback plan in case they were overwhelmed.

What kind of fallback plan can you make when the idiot Cailan is refusing to gather his full forces except retreat? Hold Lothering with a force that is heavily demoralized by a defeat and would be smashed by the the Darkspawn horde?

His FIRST action upon returning to Denerim is to try and rally the full military of the country, and send ambassadors to the Dwarves for their support while giving an offer to Uldred for freedom and hopping to enlist the power of the Circle of Magi.

He cannot afford to show weakness in the face of the Landsmeet, so that is why he declares himself reagent and says the Wardens killed Cailan. If he had declared he retreated in the face of a overwhelming onslaught of Darkspawn ( which no matter how you look at it, was exactly how it happened ) then almost every single noble would have torn him to pieces.

I do not believe he wanted the wardens dead. He did not kill Riordan and he did not kill PC when Cauthriens captures him/her. He simply wanted them out of the way.

His plan to gather support of the Circle and Dwarves failed because the Dwarven King was dead Wynne played like the ignorant idiot she is and convinced the Circle Loghain killed Cailan ( she has a way of talking ).

You can look at Ostagar however you like. You can reason in a way that Cailan was betrayed, but he certainly was not killed by Loghain. Cailan made his own choices and was there because he wanted to, even despite Loghain's protests.

Why do people use the KING argument so often? What because someone is King he should be granted unwavering loyalty? That kind of bull**** thinking spawned some of the worst kings in the history of Europe as well as some of the greatest tyrants.

Loghain, like Richard III was a loyal subject and right arm of the King - his King (in Richard's case it was his brother, Edward).  Loghain, like Richard, did not transfer his loyalty to his King's child (the Princes in the Tower) and for much the same reasons - fear of Orlais (the French). Had Loghain won this fight (forgetting the archdemon thing for a moment), he would once more have be hailed as the savior of Ferelden. But because of the ambiguity surrounding Cailan's death, there were too many who would oppose him.  Had Anora been pregnant with Cailan's child, all would have been well. The Bannorn probably would have fallen into line in hopes of a new King (with Loghain as regent).

Like Richard, he can be seen as either a tragic figure or a villain.

[Costin_Razvan]

Sorry, I didn´t know that, so I just assumed he was interested in a discussion.

So because I speak of WW2 in multiple threads I am a troll. How lovely. And yes I do find it interesting to discuss it.

The russians had reason to hate the Germans after more than 10 million Russians were murdered. The Germans had no reason at all for their crimes

How do you think they justified raping and killing so many women and girls? It was considered revenge.

What kind of justification you have for the war crimes the soviets did BEFORE the Germans invaded Russia however?

Mass torture and deportation in Poland. Murder of a third of their POW and forced labor. Harsh treatment of the Finnish POW ( again before Barbossa ).

I´d like to know what makes you think that. The Russians didn´t slaughter entire villages.

Actually they did quite exactly that. In their own country as they retreated before the Axis forces, let's not even speak of others.

Should I even mention the Holodomor?

And I´m not arguing that. Hell, after hearing that story my PC would personally kill every Chevalier she meets, but my point is that the Fereldans aren´t better. Afaik both Vaughan and Howe are Fereldans, not Orlaisians.

And yet you agree with merging Fereldan to Orlais even if it would allow the Chevaliers into Fereldan.

Also Howe and Vaughnn are exceptions not the rule in Fereldan. Out of the the 18 or so nobles you meet in the game only three engage in torture or/and rape.

 Get some knowledge of real life. A King can´t do things that are "below him" such as visiting the ghettoes (and that´s what the Alienages are in fact). In many cultures a king can´t even talk to his people because they are too far below him.

The fact he cannot/will not visit the Alienage does not excuse his ignorance as to what happens there. Also apparently Alistair CAN do such things after being crowned King so..

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 mai 2010 - 05:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well this thread went to places. I really don't see how WW2 has anything to do with this and while it is an interesting discussion, it's better left on pms, off-topic section, or some group you can create. If you do Costin, I might join that group.

[Costin_Razvan]

Hmm. 'Tis a good idea that Knight, though I think I will go even further to make it about history in general.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 02 mai 2010 - 05:28 .

[shedevil3001]

oh i thought i'd clicked on the wrong thread for a second, phew this is still opinions on loghain and his actions being justified ? yes!

[sleepingbelow]

I would like to point out the Vicious totally called it, like a page ago.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 02 mai 2010 - 05:28 .

[Willowhugger]

As the OP, I think we should just stick to Loghain. Honestly, Loghain has little in common with either Hitler or Stalin in terms of real world dictators. Those guys earned a special dispensation in the annals of history for monstrous behavior. Loghain is a more typical tyrant of the Medieval or Roman sense.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sorry, I didn´t know that, so I just assumed he was interested in a discussion.

So because I speak of WW2 in multiple threads I am a troll. How lovely. And yes I do find it interesting to discuss it.

I don´t know nor care. To me it seems not very trollish, but apparently it does to others.

And I´m not arguing that. Hell, after hearing that story my PC would personally kill every Chevalier she meets, but my point is that the Fereldans aren´t better. Afaik both Vaughan and Howe are Fereldans, not Orlaisians.

And yet you agree with merging Fereldan to Orlais even if it would allow the Chevaliers into Fereldan.
Also Howe and Vaughnn are exceptions not the rule in Fereldan. Out of the the 18 or so nobles you meet in the game only three engage in torture or/and rape.

The merging isn´t bad. Obviously the Orlaisian traditions would have to be changed a bit, but I think Cailan could achieve that. He is too fond of honor and glory to allow rape.

The fact he cannot/will not visit the Alienage does not excuse his ignorance as to what happens there. Also apparently Alistair CAN do such things after being crowned King so..

1) Alistair is not only king but also a Warden, thus he isn´t bond by all the royal limits.
2) Cailan promised to see about the Alienages. Only Loghain´s betrayal and his following death made this impossible.

[Costin_Razvan]

Tirigon: Join my history group. would provide an interesting place to discuss such things.

The merging isn´t bad. Obviously the Orlaisian traditions would have to be changed a bit, but I think Cailan could achieve that. He is too fond of honor and glory to allow rape.

Would they have? That's going on a stretch...and Cailan was not food of actually administrating the country, rather he preferred to wage war.

1) Alistair is not only king but also a Warden, thus he isn´t bond by all the royal limits.

2) Cailan promised to see about the Alienages. Only Loghain´s betrayal and his following death made this impossible.

And you believe everything he tells you? Even if he was right I think the only thing he would have done was to see about the situation with Vaughn and the riots that followed.