446 réponses à ce sujet

[Busomjack]

With that said, I am off for now. Please try to stay on subject guys and don't just use my thread as a dumping ground for whatever you want to discuss.



Thanks.

[Omicrone]

Busomjack wrote...

You are once again wrong.  Dark leafy green vegetables like argulla, kale, spinich, collard greens, Bok Choy, almonds, Broccoli all are excellent sources of calcium.

Check the bioavailability before you speak, nubcake. Calcium in human health Most of the sources you mentioned rank last. NOTHING beats milk and yoghurt. MD > you. On to 2nd point.

Busomjack wrote...

Some of the most complete sources of protein are vegan protein sources.  Amarath, hemp and quinoa in particular have all the same amino acids as organic eggs.  Meat is actually a bad choice for body builders because it has no fiber.  With no fiber your body will use a lot of energy just to digest the food and during a high intensity work out you need all the energy you can get.

First of all you're wrong there and no vegan protein source has the same amino acid profile as animal protein except soy protein, and even it is deficient in methionine (check any nutrition website), which is an essential amino acid so you'll have to get it from your cereal (again check cereal protein profile). As I said, gram for gram meat beats any of your vegan protein sources (no need to insert evidence here, it's a fact) and the fiber intake is easily compensated for by eating oatmeal (which is in every bodybuilder's diet). You're restricting yourself to vegan sources, that means no milk, no eggs, no fish, which are all excellent sources of protein and they beat any of your vegan sources gram for gram content. That means a bodybuilder eating animal sources of protein + oatmeal will be able to train with a higher intensity without running the risk of a deficiency in any amino acid, while a bodybuilder on vegan sources of protein, apart from having to eat twice as much, will not be able to keep up the same intensity of training without running into vitamin/amino acid deficiency due to the incomplete profile of plant protein. You, eating less soy than most people, are just begging for a plateau phase of growth restriction due to amino acid deficiency. Sorry busomjack, another fail.

Busomjack wrote...

That is what makes vegan sources of protein ideal.  They're not only rich in protein but they're also
good sources of complex carbohydrates for energy and they're rich in
fiber for easy digestion.

Read what I wrote above. No they're not ideal. Complex carbs and fiber, I can agree with. But no bodybuilder will eat a fiber-less diet. Same goes for carbohydrates if they're training for strength.

Busomjack wrote...

Also, alzheimer's, cretinism, and hypothyroidism?  I noticed you didn't actually post any evidence to back this up but I'll assume you're talking about soy.  The links between soy and alzheimer's are vague at best but as I said, I eat very little soy.  Besides, it's not like only vegans eat soy.  Look on the back of just about any processed food item and I'll garuntee you'll find something soy related.  Soy is one of the most subsidized crops in the world behind corn.  Being that I eat NO processed foods, my consumption of soy is less than most people and the only soy I do eat is fermented soy like tempeh which doesn't have the same risk factors as regular soy.

I was actually refering to Alzheimer's link to calcium, not soy. Alzheimer's pathogenesis is unknown but there are strong links to low calcium being the cause. I just submited a thesis on this very subject so I should know. Refer to what I said in my previous post about poor calcium bioavailability in vegan foods. Again, you risk Alzheimer's by not consuming enough calcium through a vegan diet unless you're taking supplements.

Busomjack wrote...

Cretinism is caused due to a lack of iodine and nobody in the first world suffers from iodine deficiency anymore because so many foods are fortified with it.  I eat a lot of deep sea vegetables like Dulce.  Kelp in particular is the richest source of dietary iodine on the planet.

Cretinism is rather uncommon, but it is MORE common in vegan diets compared to people who eat a mixed diet, that's why I mentioned it. Check wikipedia on vegan diet cause I don't feel like providing you with a paper. This point isn't that important to the argument anyhow.

Busomjack wrote...

Don't think you can intimidate me by dropping your MD.  Doctors are trained to treat sick people, many of them don't know a damn thing about preventing people from getting sick in the first place.  That is what dieticians are for.

Here is a great place where you can look up nutrition info for proof of what I say.

Please, I know you're desperate to prove me wrong but do not invent facts.

http://www.nutrition...products/2356/2

I was at the gym and taking care of business which is why I haven't posted in several hours.  I'm dissapointed that nobody else stepped up to the plate to debunk this poster's fallacious claims while I was gone and decided to just agree with him despite his lack of any evidence just for the sake of dissagreeing with me.

Doctors trained to treat sick people, yes. Nutrition and bodybuilding happens to be an area of interest for me and my course provides excellent physiology background including nutrition and absorption, which I doubt you know much about. The evidence I have access to is beyond your ability to understand, so I'll leave it that. I doubt you can match my evidence if I start posting scientific papers. What you gonna do? Throw a couple of websites at me? When you're ready to talk about real science, come back and we can have an intellectual debate. Until then keep using google for your information needs lol

To finish off, read a bit about complete vs non-complete protein sources. In your case, having said that you consume less soy than most people, you're pretty much saying that you're running the risk of developing deficiencies because soy is the most nearly-complete source of plant protein. Have you constructed a special protein chart with the available amino acids, amount and variety of foods you should eat? I very much doubt that, and again it comes down to eating MORE than the people who choose not to avoid meat. That means you can't ever reach the potential you could have if you were eating animal sources of protein. Both in terms of size and in terms of avoiding a deficiency. I think I've proven my point and for me this case is closed.

[Rubbish Hero]

I gave this thread 5 stars, it's amazing how jelous people are of
Busomjack skills. Aspirants bitterly wanting to aspire.

Modifié par Rubbish Hero, 04 mai 2010 - 09:59 .

[BeresaadSoldier]

Busomjack got owned. Well done, Omicrone.

[FutureBoy81]

Hey Busomjack thank's for the vacation ....

[svenus97]

Omicrone.... do you learn nothing? I hoped you learned from your mistakes the last time when you beated him sensless using human knowledge... but I guess not... here you go again.

[Tirigon]

Kevin Mann wrote...

Busomjack wrote...

I'm not posting any personal information about myself. Speaking of which, I am a bit concerned that whoever this person posting as Kevin Mann is knows my last name since I have never disclosed it.
It makes me wonder what else he's learned about me. This feels like borderline cyber-stalking and I think it's crossing the line of what is acceptable here.

Yes please don't post anymore of my personal information on this forum and remove the images, and it has been reported  youtube says it is looking into the situation. I'm also going to report this thread if you don't remove my image.  

This seems like trolling to me.

Trolling in a way that beats even Busomjack in terms of ridiculousness and being low.

[Omicrone]

svenus97 wrote...

Omicrone.... do you learn nothing? I hoped you learned from your mistakes the last time when you beated him sensless using human knowledge... but I guess not... here you go again.

Waah I was just indulging my nerdy side there And let's face it, watching BusomJack's arguments crumble is quite entertaining. I wouldn't even attempt proving to him he can't deflect a bullet though.  I mean, he can try... I think the whole board will be quite grateful of the outcome.

[Tirigon]

Eli-da-Mage wrote...

Hey i only just thought of this.
If someone says they can do everything better than you that means they can fail better than you.

True.

But in the worst case there is always Sepukku, as he posted in the "Choose your Death" thread.
So it seems not to matter much.

[Statulos]

Omicrone wrote...

svenus97 wrote...

Omicrone.... do you learn nothing? I hoped you learned from your mistakes the last time when you beated him sensless using human knowledge... but I guess not... here you go again.

Waah I was just indulging my nerdy side there And let's face it, watching BusomJack's arguments crumble is quite entertaining. I wouldn't even attempt proving to him he can't deflect a bullet though.  I mean, he can try... I think the whole board will be quite grateful of the outcome.

I saw a body that took a couple 5,56mm´s and it was nasty (cavitation does awesome things to flesh) so I do not want to see what a bigger caliber can do...

Deflecting that? Too much manga I guess. If soldiers with SAPI plates get quite good bruises and pain...

[svenus97]

Omicrone wrote...

svenus97 wrote...

Omicrone.... do you learn nothing? I hoped you learned from your mistakes the last time when you beated him sensless using human knowledge... but I guess not... here you go again.

Waah I was just indulging my nerdy side there And let's face it, watching BusomJack's arguments crumble is quite entertaining. I wouldn't even attempt proving to him he can't deflect a bullet though.  I mean, he can try... I think the whole board will be quite grateful of the outcome.

Hehehe I agree, but who would make us laugh if the chief samurai died.

[Busomjack]

Alright, doc.  That was a well researched post so I'll dignifiy it with a response.

First, I think you're putting a little bit too much emphasis on calcium.  Health problems in people other than post-menopausal women from calcium deficiency are extremely rare.  Vegetable sources of calcium may not be as rich as dairy but every dietary guideline in existance reccommends consuming more vegetables than dairy so you could imagine that being well compensated in someone who follows a vegan diet.

As for protein.  Yes, vegan protein does contain Methionine.  I'm looking at the back of my hemp protein power(for my protein shakes) right now and it reads 431 mg of Methionine.  That is not as much as in meat products but that is intentional as a low methionine diet in mammals has been proven to slow down the aging process.
http://prescribingyo...ine-theory.html
My vegan diet is due in part precisely to avoid excessive methionine.

The reason I avoid soy is because soy has trypsin inhibitors.  Being that you're a doctor I'm sure you know what trypsin is, but for those who don't, trypsin is a digestive enzyme that helps you digest protein.  Therefore, eating soy as a source of protein is actually counter-productive.

Also, yes eating fiber will aid in the digestion of meat but the problem with eating meat as an "energy food" is that most meat has too many bad fats which slow down the absorbtion of carbohydrates which as you know of course are your body's primary fuel source.
Some plant sources have fats too but the fats from them are usually medium chain fatty acids which your body prefers to use rather than store so they actually raise your metabolism.
Eating meat will get you your protein but it will not provide you with the same energy advantage of a vegan athlete which is why I have such an X-treme edge over most people.

I think you misinterpret what I meant by "complete" protein source.  There are many plant based proteins that have all essential amino acids even if not in the same quantity as meat based.  However, as I said before that is intentional as I avoid excessive methionine since it is linked to aging.

Edit:video coming soon guys!  Stay tuned!

Modifié par Busomjack, 04 mai 2010 - 10:30 .

[Wicked 702]

Has this discussion even gotten into the whole Omega 3 vs Omega 6 issue yet? Or the current evidence showing that the balance between the two has been severely disrupted in modern food sources and that this may be one explanation for many of the rising health problems we see?



Not sure why anyone would willingly avoid fish as it seems to be one of the last good sources of Omega 3 out there. Just another reason to avoid soy (in large quantities) is the fact that it's almost all Omega 6 and that's no bueno.

[Busomjack]

Wicked 702 wrote...

Has this discussion even gotten into the whole Omega 3 vs Omega 6 issue yet? Or the current evidence showing that the balance between the two has been severely disrupted in modern food sources and that this may be one explanation for many of the rising health problems we see?

Not sure why anyone would willingly avoid fish as it seems to be one of the last good sources of Omega 3 out there. Just another reason to avoid soy (in large quantities) is the fact that it's almost all Omega 6 and that's no bueno.

FIsh is a good source of omega-3.  Problem is that most fish is contaminated with mercury.  That is why I get my Omage-3's from plant sources like walnuts and flaxseed oil.

[Busomjack]

I am going to be running the Boston Marathon as soon as I qualify.  Have to sign up for a full marathon and run it in under 3 hours and ten minutes.  Should be easy for me.

I'd like to know why people think that humans are supposed to consume dairy?  Don't you think it seems a bit unnatural?

Humans did not even begin cultivating cows until about 8000 or so years ago. In terms of evolution that is just a blip.
Dairy comes from cows and they produce it for their offspring. No other animal in existence is known to consume the milk of another creature. The idea that humans require it for proper nutrition seems a bit far-fetched.

Modifié par Busomjack, 04 mai 2010 - 10:47 .

[Wicked 702]

Busomjack wrote...

Wicked 702 wrote...

Has this discussion even gotten into the whole Omega 3 vs Omega 6 issue yet? Or the current evidence showing that the balance between the two has been severely disrupted in modern food sources and that this may be one explanation for many of the rising health problems we see?

Not sure why anyone would willingly avoid fish as it seems to be one of the last good sources of Omega 3 out there. Just another reason to avoid soy (in large quantities) is the fact that it's almost all Omega 6 and that's no bueno.

FIsh is a good source of omega-3.  Problem is that most fish is contaminated with mercury.  That is why I get my Omage-3's from plant sources like walnuts and flaxseed oil.

I would agree with you to a point. "Most" is a bit much to say about which fish are contaminated. It depends heavily on where they are caught and what kind of fish it is. Tuna is the most common contaminated fish because it is a bottom feeder. All bottom feeders show higher levels than non-bottom feeders.

A great source of Omega 3 is Salmon. But you have to make sure to buy only Alaskan wild Salmon, as the farmed crap is feed fed and that makes them Omega 6 saturated. Alaskan Salmon is low on the mercury chart. (Not cheap though....)

Edit: Typo

Modifié par Wicked 702, 04 mai 2010 - 10:50 .

[Omicrone]

I only said soy doesn't contain methionine. You can get it from other plant sources without a problem. The point was - none of the plant sources is complete by itself only. If you combine them, yes, they form a complete amino acid profile, but to do so you'd need variety and most importantly, quantity. Soy protein is crappy, and it's good that you're not consuming much of it, but as it is one of the most complete sources of protein among the plants, and you're avoiding it, you're risking amino acid deficiency due to excessive demand. The real problem is, you know you have to combine different plant sources to get a complete amino acid profile, yet you have to avoid soy, which contains more amino acids than any other plant source. You see why this controversy leads many people to think animal protein is superior. The health benefits of plant sources of protein are there and I'll agree with you. The performance benefits aren't. And as you are all about performance, energy, endurance and strength you should think about eating meat, fish and dairy too.

Modifié par Omicrone, 04 mai 2010 - 10:50 .

[Busomjack]

Let me clarify saying that the majority of fish that people consume is either contaminated, or doesn't have many omega-3 fatty acids.

Farm raised fish are usually fed corn. Do you think fish seriously evolved to eat corn? You can't get good nutrition from an animal if it's not raised eating what nature intended it to eat.



There are good fish of course. Personally, I would never eat fish though as I can easily get my omega-3 fatty acids from vegan sources and because I think fishing causes extensive ecological damage.

[Busomjack]

Omni.
I deliberately avoid eating anything other than trace amounts of methionine due to it's role in aging.  I became a vegan in 2003 and I remember researching methionine's role in aging I studied about protein sources low in that particular amino acid.  Low and behold, they were all from plant sources so I found the perfect compromise.
I don't think humans were meant to consume much methionine.  Our primordial ancestors ate meat, sure but when they wanted meat they had to work hard for it and thus it was a special treat.  It's not like today where anyone can just drive up to a window and order 5 pounds of highly processed fried meat.
There are complete vegan protein sources besides soy.  Hemp in particular is one I'm particularly fond of.
Eating soy is counterproductive as I already mentioned because of trypsid inhibitors which block protein absorbtion.  Might as well throw water on a grease fire.  Soy should not be consumed at all unless it is non GMO and fermented like tempeh.

Being that I am all about performance, I see no reason why I should not stick with plant sources of protein as they provide me with protein, good carbs, fiber, and tons of essentinal nutrients all in one while being low in bad fats.  Quinoa, Amaranth, hemp, legumes, and certain nuts are really the pefect food for athletes.
Nutrition aside, I would also never support the diabolical cruelty that is involved in meat production but that is a different discussion for a different thread.

Modifié par Busomjack, 04 mai 2010 - 11:05 .

[Stanley Woo]

And at this point, I'd like to ask Busomjack and Omicrone to take their nutrition discussion elsewhere. I doubt very many people are interested in min/maxing their food/energy intake and processing.



End of line.