164 réponses à ce sujet

[ILIAS R]

Ok i agree with most of you here but -there is always a but- as the illusive man says we are at war there is no morality in war war is stupid but when it comes to end it's better to be a stupid winner than a sorry dead loser. Superiority can be achieved in many ways but numbers firepower even intelligence are things that you cant just overcome especially if the upcoming battle is immanent today.

It is as simple as if you are f.e a leader of a nation or a civilization etc and you are in face of clear and present danger what do you tell you're generals ? "I don't care how you do it just do it " details are to be clarified later by the winner.

Don't confuse morality with necessity the best way the only way to win a war to solve a problem to gain is to understand the opponent then gather strength and resources take initiative hit first hit hard enough to kill enough to win .

[Dean_the_Young]

This isn't about TIM and the Collector base. It's about the rest of the game, the rest of the characters, and the theme of self-development versus the preparation encouraged before the Collector Base.



If it seems I'm harping about staying off the topic of the Collector Base and TIM, it's because if we get on that track it won't get back on topic.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

I agree, I would not be surprised if the galaxy is in chaos due to this new technology. Sure we may build upon the advancement of others, but we don't know for sure when the reapers are coming, everything points to 2 years though, which could be more than enough time to develop tech of our own. Or... destroy ourselves with it.

Yes it's an theme, and it's an theme i fully support. Why should I follow the path that I know will let the reapers know what to expect? I already got the Thanix cannon, which if mounted on every single ship would mean that every ship has a lot of firepower from just that.

There has already been enough advancements though reaper tech to account for healthy advancement. I just don't like being shoe-horned into someone's path. It's just my personality, if you say follow this path, which probably means reaper tech, there is nothing new being developed. Your just setting some fires to beat the spreading fire before it gets here... which may or may not work, or just combine with the fire.

While off the beaten path may lie salvation thru an different form of technology.But it could mean that it could not be developed in time. Or not be developed at all. It's an gamble.

If you salvage other races/groups tech, you're shoehorning yourself down those lines of development for the same reason you were down the Reaper lines*. If you stoop to using the Thanix cannon, you've already thrown aside the principle of technological self-development. If you use the Normandy's upgrades, you're doing the same thing as well, using other people's superior knowledge rather than developing it on your own. Unless you reject those salvage opportunities, you're already walking down a worn path rather than setting out on your own.


*Which were always most importantly about using the Mass Relay system to set up the trap of the Citadel. The actual technological variations are irrelevant as long as you used the Mass Relays and Citadel.

that was developed while I was dead. Secondly, it was not an technology that the reapers wanted us to have. Third - we  mimiced it, we didn't just strapped an few council stickers on the side and mounted it on the normandy with jury rigging. The design itself is orginal, but it came from this reaper tech as an idea and an basic idea how it worked.

I have no problem using other people's work that THEY developed. You can't think "me" as in terms of humans. You have to think as an ME as an galatic civilization. The whole. If I destory that base, and it forces people to develop some new tech. I am more than up for it. If I don't, we get some reaper quality shields or something, and... the reapers kindof figure we already got some of those.

To not use such technology that already exists is stupid (especially technology that made when I was dead and had no say). To assume that using such technology is going against my beliefs is also stupid. I want rain to fall up instead of down. Why? because I feel that it's an better way. I will still use technology to use such rain to my advantage until my belief is to come to past becuase I still need to progress forward despite the fact that I currently do not have the technology. The goal to get off the beaten path may mean you have to go up the path you do not want and wait for an openning in order to make an break for it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

that was developed while I was dead. Secondly, it was not an technology that the reapers wanted us to have. Third - we  mimiced it, we didn't just strapped an few council stickers on the side and mounted it on the normandy with jury rigging. The design itself is orginal, but it came from this reaper tech as an idea and an basic idea how it worked.

The first part is irrelevant. The second part is a full justification for keeping the Reaper tech from the Collector Base, which the Reapers never wanted you to be able to reach, much less salvage. Third, that's the exact sort of tech reverse engineering that is being derided, such as the Krogan adaptations of Salarian technology.

I have no problem using other people's work that THEY developed.

Mercenaries developed their technology: you can take it. Reapers developed their technology: you can take that too. Arguably the Reapers are the only people who have developed the technology, and so by your statement are the only ones you can use.

You can't think "me" as in terms of humans. You have to think as an ME as an galatic civilization.

Except that runs counter to the story. The Reapers are part of galactic civilization: a part no one wants, but they are as much a part of it as anyone. However, Galactic Civilization is what views 'us' in terms of species. The Council is based around xeno-nationalism. Races are treated as expansions of individuals. The entire basis of withholding technology is that races, collective races, are not worthy for it. That means, yes, humans. Specifically.

Not thinking 'me' in terms of humans is a Paragon whimsy that is not shared by the rest of the galaxy, at all.

The whole. If I destory that base, and it forces people to develop some new tech. I am more than up for it. If I don't, we get some reaper quality shields or something, and... the reapers kindof figure we already got some of those.

Whether someone already knows what you have tech is irrelevant to the effectiveness of the tech: did your Asari-derived biotic upgrades suddenly become defunct when fighting Asari? Or mercenary-stolen weapon upgrades become weaker when facing mercenaries?

You already show in the game that stealing other peoples tech doesn't make it meaningless.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 mai 2010 - 08:11 .

[Arawn-Loki]

Mister Mida wrote...

You know, I actually wondered about this matter a bit before Mass Effect 2 came out because of what Sovereign said to me on Virmire: "Your technology is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, you develop along the paths we desire." I figured that the only way we could have a chance against the Reapers was by developing technology of our own, not based on the mass relays, and that the galaxy would start this process after Mass Effect. Guess Bioware didn't think so too.

Let me put it this way.

If you preserved the Collector Base in ME2, you will do more damage against the Reapers, but it will impose something terrible ethical consequence you won't be able to mitigate.

Reaper tech is based on harvesting, manipulating, and destroying organic life. That will show up in ME3.

Renegade Shep probably won't care, because he has less respect for individual life and ethics than Paragon Shep.

ME2 Renegade Shep is basically a Sith, with Sith values. He even starts looking like one as time passes.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 01 mai 2010 - 08:22 .

[fongiel24]

First of all, I'd like to say I completely agree with the OP. There is an inherent contradiction in the methods Shepherd uses to gather resources and weapons to fight the Reapers and his refusal to consider even studying Reaper tech.

Considering ME's POV however, I think "us" refers not just to the Alliance/Cerberus/humanity, but all of the allied races in Citadel space at a certain level of technology. The Asari, the Turians, the Salarians, and Humanity are considered to be the elite and are probably the most advanced species in the galaxy. They can all understand each others' technology and being at a similar level of development, that technology can be easily exchanged.

The problem with Reaper tech is that some of it is so far above "our" level of development that we can't even begin to comprehend it. Some of it like the Thanix gun is based on principles we can understand and can thus be reverse-engineered, but for a lot of Reaper tech, the technology may be just too advanced for us to utilize without just straight up copying it. I think the game is warning of the danger of utilizing and copying technology we do not fully comprehend, not warning us against adopting and exchanging technology and ideas per se.

I agree the argument in ME is not very well formulated or expressed, but that's what I think the writers were trying to get across.

[Arawn-Loki]

fongiel24 wrote...

First of all, I'd like to say I completely agree with the OP. There is an inherent contradiction in the methods Shepherd uses to gather resources and weapons to fight the Reapers and his refusal to consider even studying Reaper tech.

Considering ME's POV however, I think "us" refers not just to the Alliance/Cerberus/humanity, but all of the allied races in Citadel space at a certain level of technology. The Asari, the Turians, the Salarians, and Humanity are considered to be the elite and are probably the most advanced species in the galaxy. They can all understand each others' technology and being at a similar level of development, that technology can be easily exchanged.

The problem with Reaper tech is that some of it is so far above "our" level of development that we can't even begin to comprehend it. Some of it like the Thanix gun is based on principles we can understand and can thus be reverse-engineered, but for a lot of Reaper tech, the technology may be just too advanced for us to utilize without just straight up copying it. I think the game is warning of the danger of utilizing and copying technology we do not fully comprehend, not warning us against adopting and exchanging technology and ideas per se.

I agree the argument in ME is not very well formulated or expressed, but that's what I think the writers were trying to get across.

I agree there is some bad writing at work in Mass Effect. Like the Reapers becoming cyborgs instead of machines.

I still think the crucial point of difference here is that Asari, Turian, Salarian, and Human tech was spec'ed to the interests of those species, which includes respecting the dignity, freedom, happiness, and life of individual, organic beings. For example, by Council and Alliance law in the Mass Effect universe, dangerous and immoral forms of genetic engineering are illegal. Therefore the tech which would cause that engineering does not exist in Asari, Turian, Salarian, and Humanity's repitoire. It does not compute for them. Thus, such instances of genetic engineering are rare and do not threaten the moral essence of organic civilization.

The Reapers imposed no such limitations on their technological development. The genetic engineering which is hostile to the dignity, freedom, happiness, and life of organic beings exists in the Reaper repitoire. Hence, they kidnapped and melted down hundreds of thousands of humans in a cruel and painful manner.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 01 mai 2010 - 08:36 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The first part is irrelevant.

Totally Relvant actually. If you died, and you came back 100 years form now, would you use technology that was used by your enemies? More than likely, yeah you would when it's the only options you got. This is all an matter of choice and options you have on the table. You use those options to make decisions.

The second part is a full justification for keeping the Reaper tech from the Collector Base, which the Reapers never wanted you to be able to reach, much less salvage. Third, that's the exact sort of tech reverse engineering that is being derided, such as the Krogan adaptations of Salarian technology.

It could be yes, but your missing my point, This could be in the end all an stratgetic choice in the end. do you surprise you enemy with new tech that they haven't seen before? Or do you follow the path that is the least resistance? Least resistance means that they know exactly what they are up against. This is exactly the decision you are forced to make.

Mercenaries developed their technology: you can take it. Reapers developed their technology: you can take that too. Arguably the Reapers are the only people who have developed the technology, and so by your statement are the only ones you can use.

Yes because I don't have said options to use otherwise. I have their tech and only their tech. Humans were working on an form of instellar travel before they discovered the Mass Relays. Now Imangine if we had developed that and traveled to another star system? Space Travel as we know it, would be radically different. The game would be radically different as the Alliance would be able to travel to any point in space without the use of mass relays. That is the difference. I have no choice at the moment, but do I take that leap of faith and hope good old human Ingenuinity will come up with something? Sure.

Except that runs counter to the story. The Reapers are part of galactic civilization: a part no one wants, but they are as much a part of it as anyone.

Ok, how about this, Galactic Community.

However, Galactic Civilization is what views 'us' in terms of species. The Council is based around xeno-nationalism. Races are treated as expansions of individuals. The entire basis of withholding technology is that races, collective races, are not worthy for it. That means, yes, humans. Specifically.

Worthy for it? eh I dunno about that. You have to earn it. You don't give your kids the keys to the armory when their 5.
This is in the end, using said resources to defeat said opponent. What matters is how you go about doing it. Do you use their own tech against them? or go down an different path. That is the choices.

The whole. If I destory that base, and it forces people to develop some new tech. I am more than up for it. If I don't, we get some reaper quality shields or something, and... the reapers kindof figure we already got some of those.

Whether someone already knows what you have tech is irrelevant to the effectiveness of the tech: did your Asari-derived biotic upgrades suddenly become defunct when fighting Asari? Or mercenary-stolen weapon upgrades become weaker when facing mercenaries?

We're talking space combat here. Secondly. If because of reaper tech that scientist developed an large EMP bomb that caused reapers to force to shut down for 30 seconds... or you get an little shield bonus. Which is the better choice? Because of no reaper tech, the scientist developed an new weapon against the reapers, if there is reaper tech, he never had the time to develop both, and since reverse engineering reaper tech was pirority, he did that.

You already show in the game that stealing other peoples tech doesn't make it meaningless.

Never said it was meaningless, I said what path do you want to go. The beaten path, or the un beaten path? Eitherway, your going to be going on the beaten path for an bit to get yourself started, but eventually you'll be able to fork an right instead of continuning on. In the end, that is all the ME2 choice is to me.

Do you want to use the Reapers Technology against them?

OR

Do you want to find another way to defeat them.

Period.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 01 mai 2010 - 08:40 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

I would liken arguing with the lot of you to advocating for evolution in a Church.

Both are good forms of entertainment. XD

[Arawn-Loki]

Shandepared wrote...

I would liken arguing with the lot of you to advocating for evolution in a Church.

In what way? 

[Dean_the_Young]

That might be more plausible if the Council weren't repeatedly shown to be double-faced on those issues. 'Immoral genetic engineering' is outlawed... but slaver is allowed on Asari worlds like Illium. The dignity of sentient life is respected... unless it's an AI, or someone who creates an AI, in which case letting them be genocided is perfectly acceptable. Or just genocide in general, if your former ally or is too much trouble.



Heck, Humanity wasn't recognized as elite: Humanity was widely viewed as too big for its britches, but powerful. Humanity only got on the Council say, oh, a thousand years ahead of other spicies, and mainly by pushing the Council around in the process.

[kraidy1117]

Reaper tech blows up in your face half the time. Even the Citidal is a liability because it's a backdoor for the Reapers, and the Mass Relays while made space travel more easy and simple can still cause problems. The Geth have the right idea, build our own tech, alot of human tech is not even based on Reaper tech. In short I think everyone should look at the Geth, using naything that Reaper have or know against the Reapers will just blow up in your face, and we don't need a incident like the Reaper IFF to happen at the Collector base.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Shandepared wrote...

Arawn-Loki wrote...

In what way? 

No matter how reasonable or eloquent the argument, no matter how logical or supported it is by facts, nothing will sway your faith.

Total Agreement. But to be honest, I don't get enough of these deep convostations in life. I take advantage of every single one and enjoy it immmensely, even if I do get defeated.

The council is like the U.N. Elite, cool, bloody useless most of the time unless it's something that they have to take action against right now. It's because everyone is pushing their own agendas and it's just one big cluster**** of agendas.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 01 mai 2010 - 09:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

The first part is irrelevant.
[/quote]
Totally Relvant actually. If you died, and you came back 100 years form now, would you use technology that was used by your enemies? More than likely, yeah you would when it's the only options you got. This is all an matter of choice and options you have on the table. You use those options to make decisions. [/quote]See, the theme of the game is exactly the opposite. Even, especially, when your enemies are 100's of years more advanced, you are supposed to not take their technology.


[quote]
[quote]
The second part is a full justification for keeping the Reaper tech from the Collector Base, which the Reapers never wanted you to be able to reach, much less salvage. Third, that's the exact sort of tech reverse engineering that is being derided, such as the Krogan adaptations of Salarian technology.
[/quote]
It could be yes, but your missing my point, This could be in the end all an stratgetic choice in the end. do you surprise you enemy with new tech that they haven't seen before? Or do you follow the path that is the least resistance? Least resistance means that they know exactly what they are up against. This is exactly the decision you are forced to make. [/quote]Now you're countering your own point. You were praising the Thannix Cannons as justified because they were things the Reapers would not have wanted you to use. Now you oppose the much richer rewards of the Reaper base, and you're dismissing it as predictable.

You aren't going to be surprising the Reapers with effective new tech, because your alternative paths are (a) going to be build off the current galactic standard, based off of e-zero mass effect Reaper tech, or ( hundreds of years behind the galactic standard, at which point different but hundreds of years too soon is far inferior to Reapers standards. (After all, the Mars data cache boosted human development 200 years according to Anderson: that's 200 years you'll have to make up.)

Moreover, you pose a false delimma. There is absolutely no reason why you can not combine advanced Reaper technology with whatever 'different' technology research you wish. Infact, more advanced Reaper sciences would be better placed to help in alternative research.

[quote]
Yes because I don't have said options to use otherwise. I have their tech and only their tech. Humans were working on an form of instellar travel before they discovered the Mass Relays. Now Imangine if we had developed that and traveled to another star system? Space Travel as we know it, would be radically different. The game would be radically different as the Alliance would be able to travel to any point in space without the use of mass relays. That is the difference. I have no choice at the moment, but do I take that leap of faith and hope good old human Ingenuinity will come up with something? Sure. [/quote]First and foremost, human attempts were referred to as the Goose Chase projects: no anticipated likely success. Second, they proposed FTL were far inferior to the Mass Relays: FTL in ME is on a scale of solar systems. The Mass Relays are on a scale of galaxies. The scale is completely different and outweighed by the Mass Effect technology.

[quote][quote]
Except that runs counter to the story. The Reapers are part of galactic civilization: a part no one wants, but they are as much a part of it as anyone.
[/quote]
Ok, how about this, Galactic Community. [/quote]The Galactic Community based on reverse engineering, Mass Effeect, and industrial espionage for advancement?

[quote][quote]
However, Galactic Civilization is what views 'us' in terms of species. The Council is based around xeno-nationalism. Races are treated as expansions of individuals. The entire basis of withholding technology is that races, collective races, are not worthy for it. That means, yes, humans. Specifically.
[/quote]
Worthy for it? eh I dunno about that. You have to earn it. You don't give your kids the keys to the armory when their 5.
This is in the end, using said resources to defeat said opponent. What matters is how you go about doing it. Do you use their own tech against them? or go down an different path. That is the choices. [/quote]The basis of 'worthiness' is that there is, in fact, someone qualified to judge it so. In Mass Effect, the people claiming the right of judgement about whether other people are worthy or experienced enough to access advanced technology are the ones who did it fastest, and have extreme interest in preserving their position and authority.

The Volus have managed the Galactic Economy for longer than most races have been in space. They were the third to discover the Citadel, they predate the Krogan, the Turians, and predate Humanity by two thousand years. They have never started a war, are indespensible with the Galactic Economy, have supported all the major Citadel conflicts (Rachni Wars, Krogan Rebellions) as best as they could.

A thousand years later, the just-discovered Turians are made the third member of the Citadel, for having the biggest fleet. A thousand after that, the Humans, for having another big fleet. In ME1, musings for the next Council Member are either Hanar or Elcore.

That's not a system that judges worthiness on maturity and experience. That's an influence racket.


[quote][quote]Whether someone already knows what you have tech is irrelevant to the effectiveness of the tech: did your Asari-derived biotic upgrades suddenly become defunct when fighting Asari? Or mercenary-stolen weapon upgrades become weaker when facing mercenaries?
[/quote]
We're talking space combat here. Secondly. If because of reaper tech that scientist developed an large EMP bomb that caused reapers to force to shut down for 30 seconds... or you get an little shield bonus. Which is the better choice? Because of no reaper tech, the scientist developed an new weapon against the reapers, if there is reaper tech, he never had the time to develop both, and since reverse engineering reaper tech was pirority, he did that. [/quote]Putting 'space' before combat doesn't change the fact: technological advancement doesn't nullify prior technology in any regards except increased effectiveness.

Without an understanding of Reaper tech, the ability to develop anything
for use against the Reapers is highly diminished. By any measure, a weapon that would reliably shut the Reapers off for a limited amount of time is far superior to a possible hypothetical that can't even promise to do a fraction of the effectiveness. That EMP bomb alone would win the war, by giving a weapon that would allow ME1 technologies (dreadnaught fire, etc.) to be effective.

[Arawn-Loki]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

The first part is irrelevant.
[/quote]
Totally Relvant actually. If you died, and you came back 100 years form now, would you use technology that was used by your enemies? More than likely, yeah you would when it's the only options you got. This is all an matter of choice and options you have on the table. You use those options to make decisions. [/quote]See, the theme of the game is exactly the opposite. Even, especially, when your enemies are 100's of years more advanced, you are supposed to not take their technology.


[quote]
[quote]
The second part is a full justification for keeping the Reaper tech from the Collector Base, which the Reapers never wanted you to be able to reach, much less salvage. Third, that's the exact sort of tech reverse engineering that is being derided, such as the Krogan adaptations of Salarian technology.
[/quote]
It could be yes, but your missing my point, This could be in the end all an stratgetic choice in the end. do you surprise you enemy with new tech that they haven't seen before? Or do you follow the path that is the least resistance? Least resistance means that they know exactly what they are up against. This is exactly the decision you are forced to make. [/quote]Now you're countering your own point. You were praising the Thannix Cannons as justified because they were things the Reapers would not have wanted you to use. Now you oppose the much richer rewards of the Reaper base, and you're dismissing it as predictable.

You aren't going to be surprising the Reapers with effective new tech, because your alternative paths are (a) going to be build off the current galactic standard, based off of e-zero mass effect Reaper tech, or ( hundreds of years behind the galactic standard, at which point different but hundreds of years too soon is far inferior to Reapers standards. (After all, the Mars data cache boosted human development 200 years according to Anderson: that's 200 years you'll have to make up.)

Moreover, you pose a false delimma. There is absolutely no reason why you can not combine advanced Reaper technology with whatever 'different' technology research you wish. Infact, more advanced Reaper sciences would be better placed to help in alternative research.

[quote]
Yes because I don't have said options to use otherwise. I have their tech and only their tech. Humans were working on an form of instellar travel before they discovered the Mass Relays. Now Imangine if we had developed that and traveled to another star system? Space Travel as we know it, would be radically different. The game would be radically different as the Alliance would be able to travel to any point in space without the use of mass relays. That is the difference. I have no choice at the moment, but do I take that leap of faith and hope good old human Ingenuinity will come up with something? Sure. [/quote]First and foremost, human attempts were referred to as the Goose Chase projects: no anticipated likely success. Second, they proposed FTL were far inferior to the Mass Relays: FTL in ME is on a scale of solar systems. The Mass Relays are on a scale of galaxies. The scale is completely different and outweighed by the Mass Effect technology.

[quote][quote]
Except that runs counter to the story. The Reapers are part of galactic civilization: a part no one wants, but they are as much a part of it as anyone.
[/quote]
Ok, how about this, Galactic Community. [/quote]The Galactic Community based on reverse engineering, Mass Effeect, and industrial espionage for advancement?

[quote][quote]
However, Galactic Civilization is what views 'us' in terms of species. The Council is based around xeno-nationalism. Races are treated as expansions of individuals. The entire basis of withholding technology is that races, collective races, are not worthy for it. That means, yes, humans. Specifically.
[/quote]
Worthy for it? eh I dunno about that. You have to earn it. You don't give your kids the keys to the armory when their 5.
This is in the end, using said resources to defeat said opponent. What matters is how you go about doing it. Do you use their own tech against them? or go down an different path. That is the choices. [/quote]The basis of 'worthiness' is that there is, in fact, someone qualified to judge it so. In Mass Effect, the people claiming the right of judgement about whether other people are worthy or experienced enough to access advanced technology are the ones who did it fastest, and have extreme interest in preserving their position and authority.

The Volus have managed the Galactic Economy for longer than most races have been in space. They were the third to discover the Citadel, they predate the Krogan, the Turians, and predate Humanity by two thousand years. They have never started a war, are indespensible with the Galactic Economy, have supported all the major Citadel conflicts (Rachni Wars, Krogan Rebellions) as best as they could.

A thousand years later, the just-discovered Turians are made the third member of the Citadel, for having the biggest fleet. A thousand after that, the Humans, for having another big fleet. In ME1, musings for the next Council Member are either Hanar or Elcore.

That's not a system that judges worthiness on maturity and experience. That's an influence racket.


[quote][quote]Whether someone already knows what you have tech is irrelevant to the effectiveness of the tech: did your Asari-derived biotic upgrades suddenly become defunct when fighting Asari? Or mercenary-stolen weapon upgrades become weaker when facing mercenaries?
[/quote]
We're talking space combat here. Secondly. If because of reaper tech that scientist developed an large EMP bomb that caused reapers to force to shut down for 30 seconds... or you get an little shield bonus. Which is the better choice? Because of no reaper tech, the scientist developed an new weapon against the reapers, if there is reaper tech, he never had the time to develop both, and since reverse engineering reaper tech was pirority, he did that. [/quote]Putting 'space' before combat doesn't change the fact: technological advancement doesn't nullify prior technology in any regards except increased effectiveness.

Without an understanding of Reaper tech, the ability to develop anything
for use against the Reapers is highly diminished. By any measure, a weapon that would reliably shut the Reapers off for a limited amount of time is far superior to a possible hypothetical that can't even promise to do a fraction of the effectiveness. That EMP bomb alone would win the war, by giving a weapon that would allow ME1 technologies (dreadnaught fire, etc.) to be effective.

[/quote]

So, you don't think that suffering as a byproduct of the appropriation of tech at the Collector Base will compromise the ethical character of organic civilization? 

[KalReegarVasNeema]

I decided to destroy it because all that other reaper tech turned people indoctrinated, this thing can probably do the same. Didn't even think anything moral about it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Arawn-Loki wrote...

So, you don't think that suffering as a byproduct of the appropriation of tech at the Collector Base will compromise the ethical character of organic civilization? 

Of course not.

I travel on airplanes derived from WW2 German jet technology. I wash my hair with soaps and shampoos that were at one point tested by rubbing them into the eyes of small animals. I eat the flesh of living things likely raised in factory farms, the leaves and fruits of plants genetically engineered over millenia, and drink fluids washed with more chemicals than I can name. I train for a profession intended to use projectiles and explosives to kill people as effectively as possible, and I voted for a man who assassinates enemies as a matter of policy. I eat well while millions of people starve, and live comfortably while many of people must endure.

And all that is considered normal, yet I still would not sacrifice millions who could otherwise survive if not for my idealism.

Don't speak to me about the character of organic civilization, as if it either exists or if it does that it is something to be proud of. Don't even speak to me of character. You speak of suffering as a byproduct of the choice as if there wouldn't be suffereing otherwise. That's a far more callaus dismissal of the millions, if not billions or even trillions, of lives that are likely to be destroyed from facing the Reapers with inferior fleets.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 mai 2010 - 09:43 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KalReegarVasNeema wrote...

I decided to destroy it because all that other reaper tech turned people indoctrinated, this thing can probably do the same. Didn't even think anything moral about it.

The Thannix Cannons? Or the upgrades you already took from the Collector Ship, or mass-effect technology in general? Heck, what about Edi?

Granted, Joker's taking the human-machine interface a bit too seriously...

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 mai 2010 - 09:44 .

[Arawn-Loki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arawn-Loki wrote...

So, you don't think that suffering as a byproduct of the appropriation of tech at the Collector Base will compromise the ethical character of organic civilization? 

Of course not.

I travel on airplanes derived from WW2 German jet technology. I wash my hair with soaps and shampoos that were at one point tested by rubbing them into the eyes of small animals. I eat the flesh of living things likely raised in factory farms, the leaves and fruits of plants genetically engineered over millenia, and drink fluids washed with more chemicals than I can name. I train for a profession intended to use projectiles and explosives to kill people as effectively as possible, and I voted for a man who assassinates enemies as a matter of policy. I eat well while millions of people starve, and live comfortably while many of people must endure.

And all that is considered normal, yet I still would not sacrifice millions who could otherwise survive if not for my idealism.

Don't speak to me about the character of organic civilization, as if it either exists or if it does that it is something to be proud of. Don't even speak to me of character. You speak of suffering as a byproduct of the choice as if there wouldn't be suffereing otherwise. That's a far more callaus dismissal of the millions, if not billions or even trillions, of lives that are likely to be destroyed from facing the Reapers with inferior fleets.

You can't pretend some appreciation for dignity, freedom, and life does not exist in our civilization. Humans may strain against it, there may be tensions and hypocrisies, but its in our laws and social customs. Imperfect, but still, it is a code of action.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 01 mai 2010 - 09:49 .

[Dean_the_Young]

I have never denied that appreciation for dignity, freedom, and life exist. I deny that enough of something more than appreciation exists to be proud of in order to justify wasting actual dignity, freedom, and life on the principle of it.



Your appreciation for life, for example, does not extend to valuing billions over imaginary anthropomorphizing collectives of individuals, and your standard for those who appreciate dignity, freedom, and life is the only other active group in the galaxy besides the Reapers which practices genocide as a matter of policy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Arawn-Loki wrote...

Considering the Thannix Cannon was able to be reproduced without reducing organic life, there's little reason to believe that the strength of Reaper technology is dependent on the process of the Reapers, as opposed to the theoretical concepts underlying the technology.

I think retconning the Reapers from the purely synthetic beings they were in ME1 into cyborgs was a bad idea. I think having them consist partially of organic substances is a step out of science fiction into science fantasy. But the Reapers being amorous pragmatists, for the purposes of the story, the presence of those substances has to be vital to their high-level of functioning. Since it doesn't seem those substances can relate to their thinking (they are machine minds), it has to relate to their raw physical power in some way. Aka, somehow it translates organic life into raw power. Consider the Collectors and how their tech had a biological component and was very powerful. The biological component in the tech must be essential to that power. If their shields and guns and functions we haven't seen don't somehow relate to the organic substances inside them, then those substances are purposeless.

That's not hard science fiction. But it is the science of the Mass Effect universe.

Its not entirely stupid. Organic bodies actually generate considerable amounts of energy and waste most of it. 

Materials of construction do not supplement technological theory. Reapers do not translate organic life into raw power. They translate organic life into metalic materials and, presumably, AI intelligence. The power of their equipment comes from the technological theory behind it, which is why the Thannix Cannon works so well.