164 réponses à ce sujet

[Arawn-Loki]

Materials of construction do not supplement technological theory. Reapers do not translate organic life into raw power. They translate organic life into metalic materials and, presumably, AI intelligence. The power of their equipment comes from the technological theory behind it, which is why the Thannix Cannon works so well.

I didn't get the impression the Reapers/Collectors could use any form of matter to create their materials. Can you really justify that interpretation on the strength of the evidence provided? 

At best, organic civilization could employ some type of cloning to provide the material to replicate Reaper weapons, but logistical and manufacturing limitations would prevent us from producing it fast enough; we would have to use already existing material to develop fast enough in time for the war. The Illusive Man will probably favor using aliens as raw ingredients for the tech. Shepard will either favor his approach or fight against him, but if he fights against him, it will undermine the final battle against the Reapers.  

The Thannix Canon is probably the exception, not the rule. Of all Reaper's great power (say, Harbinger's impressive biotic abilities), I would say most of it would require organic material. Actually, the Thannix canon is probably a crude adaption to our non-organic tech more than a replication.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 01 mai 2010 - 10:36 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Arawn-Loki wrote...

Materials of construction do not supplement technological theory. Reapers do not translate organic life into raw power. They translate organic life into metalic materials and, presumably, AI intelligence. The power of their equipment comes from the technological theory behind it, which is why the Thannix Cannon works so well.

I didn't get the impression the Reapers/Collectors could use any form of matter to create their materials. Can you really justify that interpretation on the strength of the evidence provided?

The collective nature of the Reaper AI, that they are each a nation within itself, that they are created resembling the species they are made from, that they require millions individuals in order to form a Legion AI, that the number of individuals pressed into the frame effect the sentience of the Reaper. The fact that Reaper technology can be duplicated without needing to be made from Reaper materials.

The last one is important, because it proves (a) that Reaper technology is technology, not magical materials, and ( that the choice of materials is based on something other than being magically effective. Instead, EDI's suggestion that the Reaper AI itself, it's self-awareness, is tied to the progressive metalization of humans, each person liquified more or less providing one of the aspects of the Legion-equivalent AI, providing the truth to the 'we are legion' claim.

In short, the implications of the game are that the materials are the requirement of the Reaper AI, not the Reaper technology, which is demonstratably replicated by non-Reaper materials. Reaper materials may be good, even ideal, but their primary purpose is to provide the sentience, so non-sentinient designs would not require those materials, and alternatives would be suitable for catching up to whatever material composition defficiencies are required to be overcome.

At best, organic civilization could employ some type of cloning to provide the material to replicate Reaper weapons, but logistical and manufacturing limitations would prevent us from producing it fast enough; we would have to use already existing material to develop fast enough in time for the war. The Illusive Man will probably favor using aliens as raw ingredients for the tech. Shepard will either favor his approach or fight against him, but if he fights against him, it will undermine the final battle against the Reapers. 

That's head-bashingly stupid for a number of reasons, starting with the point that Reaper technology does not necessitate building actual Reapers and continuing to the fact that by the point Cerberus could even do such a thing, it would no longer need to.

In order to do such a harvesting in scale in order to utilize Reaper tech like you suggest, Cerberus would need a massive technological edge that could only be given by being able to utilize Reaper tech. By the time it could harvest, it would already have mastered the technology without needing harvesting.

The Thannix Canon is probably the exception, not the rule. Of all Reaper's great power (say, Harbinger's impressive biotic abilities), I would say most of it would require organic material.

As the Thannix Cannon, EDI, element zero cores, mass effect technology in general, Dragon's Teeth,  the Prothean Conduit, and the odd indoctrination device are all unanimous cases of Reaper technology not being tied to being part of the Reapers (and thus made of Reaper materials), your exceptions to the rules are every example of independent Reaper technology given to us to date.

[Arawn-Loki]

That's head-bashingly stupid for a number of reasons, starting with the point that Reaper technology does not necessitate building actual Reapers and continuing to the fact that by the point Cerberus could even do such a thing, it would no longer need to.

In order to do such a harvesting in scale in order to utilize Reaper tech like you suggest, Cerberus would need a massive technological edge that could only be given by being able to utilize Reaper tech. By the time it could harvest, it would already have mastered the technology without needing harvesting.

It might be bad writing, but that's probably the way it's going to go. It's not the Renegade option because there is no ethical consequence.

Anyway, the Collectors suggest that Reaper tech and organic material are interrelated. All Collector Tech has organic components.

As the Thannix Cannon, EDI, element zero cores, mass effect technology in general, Dragon's Teeth,  the Prothean Conduit, and the odd indoctrination device are all unanimous cases of Reaper technology not being tied to being part of the Reapers (and thus made of Reaper materials), your exceptions to the rules are every example of independent Reaper technology given to us to date.

The "Dragon's Teeth" would be an example in my favor because they exploit organic material in a way contrary to the interests of ethical organics.

I think the line between Reaper tech and the tech of the species that created them is blurred in the Reaper's eyes, possibly because the first Reapers consist of their parent species (aka, they absorbed them) and the original "Reaper Tech" the reapers consist of was an invention of that species. The Mass Relays are probably achievements of that first species, not the Reapers proper.

Reapers tend to consider everything that exists their possession.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 01 mai 2010 - 10:58 .

[AmstradHero]

fongiel24 wrote...
The problem with Reaper tech is that some of it is so far above "our" level of development that we can't even begin to comprehend it. ... I think the game is warning of the danger of utilizing and copying technology we do not fully comprehend, not warning us against adopting and exchanging technology and ideas per se.

QFT.

Mordin gives the perfect example of this style of thinking when he's talking about the Krogan.  The Salarian provided Krogan with weaponry (specifically nuclear) that they as a society were not ready for.  As a result, the genetic trait of being naturally aggressive had not been lost (or reduced in potency) out of a need for survival which may have resulted in the Krogan being able to have nuclear weapons without plunging their planet in a nuclear winter.

Taking advantage of technology developed by other races is not a bad thing, but using technology with no understanding of the consequences or full power is.

I know you'll likely argue that Mass Effect relays fall into this category, but the fact is that almost everyone in the galaxy believes the relays were created by the Protheans, not the Reapers.  You can't convince an entire galaxy to stop using them because "they're bad mmmmkay?".  Moreover, even the Reapers need to use Mass Effect relays in order to travel long distances, as Sovereign did at the end of ME1.  Apart from the Omega 4 relay, they don't appear to have any "smarts" or negative consequences aside from making races develop along the paths that the Reapers desire.

[Dean_the_Young]

The ethical consequences are that Cerberus will ensure that Humanity is predominant in the galaxy. This is what the game says. TIM going Adolf for the first time and harvesting aliens, however, is not implied anywhere in the game.



Moreover, the Paragon has far more serious ethical consequences involved. And by serious I mean lethal, to all those, alien and human, who could have survived had you not thrown away the means to even the odds. It's not the Paragon option because there aren't ethical consequences: it's the paragon option because there are different ethical consequences.

[KalReegarVasNeema]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KalReegarVasNeema wrote...

I decided to destroy it because all that other reaper tech turned people indoctrinated, this thing can probably do the same. Didn't even think anything moral about it.

The Thannix Cannons? Or the upgrades you already took from the Collector Ship, or mass-effect technology in general? Heck, what about Edi?

Granted, Joker's taking the human-machine interface a bit too seriously...

I meant the larger pieces that we kept whole, should have been more specific.

[Arawn-Loki]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The ethical consequences are that Cerberus will ensure that Humanity is predominant in the galaxy. This is what the game says. TIM going Adolf for the first time and harvesting aliens, however, is not implied anywhere in the game.

Moreover, the Paragon has far more serious ethical consequences involved. And by serious I mean lethal, to all those, alien and human, who could have survived had you not thrown away the means to even the odds. It's not the Paragon option because there aren't ethical consequences: it's the paragon option because there are different ethical consequences.

That's part of it. Outright human dominance will disrupt the symbiotic relationships nurtured by the Council. The epilogue will probably mention there was a war between the human dominated council and the aliens: if humans have the Reaper tech, then they will crush the aliens and basically become a Sith Empire. Without it, humans will be subjugated by aliens. The Paragon choice to maintain equitable relationships by depriving humans of Reaper tech and keeping a multi-species Council is building a more harmonious future, after the Reaper war is done. However, it will probably result in more casualties during the Reaper War itself.

Regardless, you are divorcing Reaper tech too far from organic material. Especially since Reaper tech most likely relates strongly to Biotics, which requires organic material, and the Illusive Man believes it is man's destiny to become a powerful BIotic species (as fast as possible).

No matter what, Reaper tech will, as in the case of Saren, blend the lines between organic and machine in a manner that is high-functioning but not ethical. That's what it means to be Renegade.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 01 mai 2010 - 11:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Arawn-Loki wrote...

As the Thannix Cannon, EDI, element zero cores, mass effect technology in general, Dragon's Teeth,  the Prothean Conduit, and the odd indoctrination device are all unanimous cases of Reaper technology not being tied to being part of the Reapers (and thus made of Reaper materials), your exceptions to the rules are every example of independent Reaper technology given to us to date.

The "Dragon's Teeth" would be an example in my favor because they exploit organic material in a way contrary to the interests of ethical organics.

No, your point was that the power of Reaper technology is dependent on being made from grey goo. Ignoring your own argument doesn't defend it.

Dragon's Teeth kill you and use your body, the second fact being far less pressing to ethics than the first.  A better argument would be indoctrination tech, except that studying the technology behind indoctrination is the best and only meaningful way to prepare to counter it when the Reapers come, and that destroying it doesn't protect people from it.

I think the line between Reaper tech and the tech of the species that created them is blurred in the Reaper's eyes, possibly because the first Reapers consist of their parent species (aka, they absorbed them) and the original "Reaper Tech" the reapers consist of was an invention of that species. The Mass Relays are probably achievements of that first species, not the Reapers proper.

Possible as a episode three rewrite, but baseless counter-cannon arguing as of now. Sovereign claimed the Reapers made the Relays, and there's nothing to suggest he's wrong or was lying. After all, the first Reapers could well have continued to develop and created the Mass Relays after themselves being created (which they more or less claim), as opposed to inhereting the tech and making no advancements themselves (which no one in-universe claims).

[Arawn-Loki]

No, your point was that the power of Reaper technology is dependent on being made from grey goo. Ignoring your own argument doesn't defend it.

Dragon's Teeth kill you and use your body, the second fact being far less pressing to ethics than the first.  A better argument would be indoctrination tech, except that studying the technology behind indoctrination is the best and only meaningful way to prepare to counter it when the Reapers come, and that destroying it doesn't protect people from it.

No, that was only part of it. My main argument is more abstract. I cited the Collectors as an example of organic-tech crossbreeds. Their bodies, and their weapons, are a mixture of tech and organic components. That is Reaper tech. It's not all grey goo. The Reapers make liberal use of organic parts whenever they think these will have a useful function. In its Harbinger's tirades.

Indeed, one of Harbinger's interests in humanity is our high Biotic potential. Our organic material will probably synergize better with the Biotic aspect of Reaper tech than, say, a Turian or a Salarian.

Possible as a episode three rewrite, but baseless counter-cannon arguing as of now. Sovereign claimed the Reapers made the Relays, and there's nothing to suggest he's wrong or was lying. After all, the first Reapers could well have continued to develop and created the Mass Relays after themselves being created (which they more or less claim), as opposed to inhereting the tech and making no advancements themselves (which no one in-universe claims).

Its not really a re-write. The Reapers more or less make explicit they believe anything they take belongs to them, and that anything derived from what they have belongs to them. They believe they own everything, including, as Harbinger puts it, "the powers of the universe," aka Dark Energy via Biotics.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 01 mai 2010 - 11:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AmstradHero wrote...

fongiel24 wrote...
The problem with Reaper tech is that some of it is so far above "our" level of development that we can't even begin to comprehend it. ... I think the game is warning of the danger of utilizing and copying technology we do not fully comprehend, not warning us against adopting and exchanging technology and ideas per se.

QFT.

Mordin gives the perfect example of this style of thinking when he's talking about the Krogan.  The Salarian provided Krogan with weaponry (specifically nuclear) that they as a society were not ready for.  As a result, the genetic trait of being naturally aggressive had not been lost (or reduced in potency) out of a need for survival which may have resulted in the Krogan being able to have nuclear weapons without plunging their planet in a nuclear winter.

Taking advantage of technology developed by other races is not a bad thing, but using technology with no understanding of the consequences or full power is.

I know you'll likely argue that Mass Effect relays fall into this category, but the fact is that almost everyone in the galaxy believes the relays were created by the Protheans, not the Reapers.  You can't convince an entire galaxy to stop using them because "they're bad mmmmkay?".  Moreover, even the Reapers need to use Mass Effect relays in order to travel long distances, as Sovereign did at the end of ME1.  Apart from the Omega 4 relay, they don't appear to have any "smarts" or negative consequences aside from making races develop along the paths that the Reapers desire.

Since the Mass Relays are really the only part of the Reaper plan for technological guidance that matters, and are the entire trap of the Reapers (the Relay Network leading to the Citadel), that's handwaving the entire Reaper conspiracy as meaningless and focusing on what the Reapers don't care about in the least, which was the particulars of the technology developed. Each species undoubtably developed the reverse-engineered tech in their own style: what was important was that they came to the Citadel where they could be monitored. That is the extent to which the Reapers wanted any one tech path or another. The Reaper development lines were about imposing order on chaos, not an admission of weakness to 'non-Reaper' lines of development.

The point about the Mass Relays is that they use them at all, not who created them: whether it was Reaper or Prothean is irrelevant to the belief in technological self-development and morality. If you are willing to use and exploit unfathomable technology to your own advantage, you have very little basis for denying others the same right.

[Arawn-Loki]

The point about the Mass Relays is that they use them at all, not who created them: whether it was Reaper or Prothean is irrelevant to the belief in technological self-development and morality. If you are willing to use and exploit unfathomable technology to your own advantage, you have very little basis for denying others the same right.

But a species making use of Reaper tech (especially to enhance their Biotic potential) is probably going to end up resembling the Collectors. Maximizing the effectiveness of their tech requires we adapt ourselves to it. We could handle it morally, if we work to integrate it carefully, but in face of war, the Illusive Man and Cerberus are going to make sacrifices and perform dangeorus experiments.

Based on its description, I still think the Thannix Canon is an adaption, not a replication, and probably on the low-end of Reaper tech. Since so much of their body is organic, their strongest abilities are probably Biotic.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 01 mai 2010 - 11:28 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Arawn-Loki wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The ethical consequences are that Cerberus will ensure that Humanity is predominant in the galaxy. This is what the game says. TIM going Adolf for the first time and harvesting aliens, however, is not implied anywhere in the game.

Moreover, the Paragon has far more serious ethical consequences involved. And by serious I mean lethal, to all those, alien and human, who could have survived had you not thrown away the means to even the odds. It's not the Paragon option because there aren't ethical consequences: it's the paragon option because there are different ethical consequences.

That's part of it. Outright human dominance will disrupt the symbiotic relationships nurtured by the Council. The epilogue will probably mention there was a war between the human dominated council and the aliens: if humans have the Reaper tech, then they will crush the aliens and basically become a Sith Empire. Without it, humans will be subjugated by aliens. The Paragon choice to maintain equitable relationships by depriving humans of Reaper tech and keeping a multi-species Council is building a more harmonious future, after the Reaper war is done. However, it will probably result in more casualties during the Reaper War itself.

TIM isn't Palpetine. He never was. Nor was this ever Star Wars.

Even a rudimentary reading of history will show that differences in powers did not necessitate war. Infact, the longest periods of peace have been when one side or another was dominant. There are big powers, there are weak powers, and it is not fate that the weak will gather together against the single strong: again, history. Multipolarity, if you want that now, but even the historical periods of unipolarity. Moreover, there is no indication humanity would be alive: it is quite feasible and realistic to have strong alliances with the Geth, the Quarians, the Krogan, the Rachni, all of whom are also opposed by the Council.

The Council is not a symbiotic organization, it is borderline parasitic racket to the advantage of the Council Members. Galactic stability is the catchphrase, but that stability is dependent on everyone else staying down and not making waves while threeraces stands above the rest.

Regardless, you are divorcing Reaper tech too far from organic material. Especially since Reaper tech most likely relates strongly to Biotics, which requires organic material, and the Illusive Man believes it is man's destiny to become a powerful BIotic species (as fast as possible).

No, I'm not. Reaper technology is not the same as Reapers. Technology is far more fundamental than construction materials, and knowing how the Reapers work does not require we build out of the same thing as they do, especially when doing so would be counterproductive to the extreme.

Biotics is certainly not a field that anyone is going to give up in regardless of who's interested in it. The Asari are prevalent in it. The Turians are prevalent in it. They, not the Reapers, were the Alliance's reasons for pushing for biotics via the e-zero accidents back when the Alliance still ran Cerberus.

No matter what, Reaper tech will, as in the case of Saren, blend the lines between organic and machine in a manner that is high-functioning but not ethical. That's what it means to be Renegade.

Of for...

No. Renegade is not immoral. Grow up and look at the world good and bad, rather than wrap yourself in idealism of that it's all good deep down. A Renegade believes in a different code of ethics, but the reason why some people believe the ends justify the means is because the end is what endures and that's what people remember most at the end of the day. Renegade and Paragon are already too widely spread, but a belief that all person's lives are innately equal and above politics are precisely what will lead someone to choose to save the Collector Base: the most lives saved most assuradely.

You would rather risk galactic extinction and sacrifice possibly billions of lives that could be saved in the name of your ideal political set up for what is historically a xeno-nationalist (racist, when applied to everyone else in the game) influence racket with a deserved reputation for genocide. That does not come across as ethical: any Renegade who made the choice to save the base would have more grounds to say they care more about lives than you.

[Dean_the_Young]

Arawn-Loki wrote...

No, your point was that the power of Reaper technology is dependent on being made from grey goo. Ignoring your own argument doesn't defend it.

Dragon's Teeth kill you and use your body, the second fact being far less pressing to ethics than the first.  A better argument would be indoctrination tech, except that studying the technology behind indoctrination is the best and only meaningful way to prepare to counter it when the Reapers come, and that destroying it doesn't protect people from it.

No, that was only part of it. My main argument is more abstract. I cited the Collectors as an example of organic-tech crossbreeds. Their bodies, and their weapons, are a mixture of tech and organic components. That is Reaper tech. It's not all grey goo. The Reapers make liberal use of organic parts whenever they think these will have a useful function. In its Harbinger's tirades.

Indeed, one of Harbinger's interests in humanity is our high Biotic potential. Our organic material will probably synergize better with the Biotic aspect of Reaper tech than, say, a Turian or a Salarian.

However abstract you think you're being, as opposed to meandering, you're no longer making a case against using Reaper technology. You're simply making a case against doing it like it was done with the Collectors... which no one suggested. Cerberus does not advance a culturally dead humanity.

Its not really a re-write. The Reapers more or less make explicit they believe anything they take belongs to them, and that anything derived from what they have belongs to them. They believe they own everything, including, as Harbinger puts it, "the powers of the universe," aka Dark Energy via Biotics.

Nothing in Mass Effect 1 or 2 suggests that Reapers did NOT invent the Mass Relays or advance their own technology. Writing that they have would be directly countering previously stated facts.

[AmstradHero]

It is stated multiple times in ME1 that current technology was based on what "we" understand from the "Prothean" technology we've uncovered. Note the key is what we understand. We're not taking and using technology that we don't comprehend for our own purposes, we're adapting what we do understand for our use. We don't understand the Reaper tech, and given the dire consequences of previous investigation into Reapers (IFF mission being one of the most poignant examples), it is naive to think that we could use Reaper technology safely.

You appear to have missed the point regarding Mass Effect relays. Countless races have paid the price for using technology that they don't understand - extinction at the hands of the Reapers. It's only been through the efforts of the Protheans (using their OWN TECHNOLOGY) that the disaster was averted for us, supplemented by Shepard's actions in defeating Saren/Sovereign and the Collectors/Harbinger.

There is a consistent statement that using technology beyond what you understand in order to fast-track the development of your species is a bad idea - see Legion's discussion of the Heretics. There is no reason you cannot learn from other species - but you must be mindful of the agenda of that other species and whether this is an attempt to further the development of the galaxy. Reapers only want the galaxy developed just enough so that they can harvest a species for their own means... it hardly seems an intelligent choice to try and use their own technology against them particularly if you don't understand it, and especially when the price for failure is indoctrination.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 01 mai 2010 - 11:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Arawn-Loki wrote...

The point about the Mass Relays is that they use them at all, not who created them: whether it was Reaper or Prothean is irrelevant to the belief in technological self-development and morality. If you are willing to use and exploit unfathomable technology to your own advantage, you have very little basis for denying others the same right.

But a species making use of Reaper tech (especially to enhance their Biotic potential) is probably going to end up resembling the Collectors. Maximizing the effectiveness of their tech requires we adapt ourselves to it. We could handle it morally, if we work to integrate it carefully, but in face of war, the Illusive Man and Cerberus are going to make sacrifices and perform dangeorus experiments.

No. The Collectors were cloned, indoctrinated, and given cybernetics to make up for the defeciencies in cloning and indoctrinating them. Their pitiful status as culturally dead is something that was forced upon them, in part by the indoctrination.

None of that is a threat with the introduction of such tech to humanity as a whole. Cybernetic implants did not cause their state. Indoctrination, cloning, and culture death did.

Based on its description, I still think the Thannix Canon is an adaption, not a replication, and probably on the low-end of Reaper tech. Since so much of their body is organic, their strongest abilities are probably Biotic.

The Thannix Cannon is called a miniaturization of Sovereign's guns in its very description. That is a replication.

[Arawn-Loki]

Of for...

No. Renegade is not immoral. Grow up and look at the world good and bad, rather than wrap yourself in idealism of that it's all good deep down. A Renegade believes in a different code of ethics, but the reason why some people believe the ends justify the means is because the end is what endures and that's what people remember most at the end of the day. Renegade and Paragon are already too widely spread, but a belief that all person's lives are innately equal and above politics are precisely what will lead someone to choose to save the Collector Base: the most lives saved most assuradely.

You would rather risk galactic extinction and sacrifice possibly billions of lives that could be saved in the name of your ideal political set up for what is historically a xeno-nationalist (racist, when applied to everyone else in the game) influence racket with a deserved reputation for genocide. That does not come across as ethical: any Renegade who made the choice to save the base would have more grounds to say they care more about lives than you.

Don't compartmentalize me into your concept of Paragon. Criticize Paragon all you want, but don't interpose my person in it.

You are getting worked up about semantics that make no difference. Ethics is a method. In theory, the methodology of a Renegade is that strategies which produce good outcomes are the appropritate methods. Since mortal knowledge is finite and habit and instinct are instrumental to our actions, in practice the methodology of a Renegade tends to involve unnecessarily high levels of impatience, intolerance and bigotry, as sentimental anchors in decision-making.  
,

However abstract you think you're being, as opposed to meandering, you're no longer making a case against using Reaper technology. You're simply making a case against doing it like it was done with the Collectors... which no one suggested. Cerberus does not advance a culturally dead humanity.

Reapers and their technology are not distinct in the way humans and our technology are. The Collectors demonstrate that. You haven't made a convincing argument to the contrary.

You could modify and adapt the designs of Reaper tech to make something like a Thannix Canon, but the writing is on the wall that their tech is an integration of organic and machine.

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 01 mai 2010 - 11:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AmstradHero wrote...

It is stated multiple times in ME1 that current technology was based on what "we" understand from the "Prothean" technology we've uncovered. Note the key is what we understand. We're not taking and using technology that we don't comprehend for our own purposes, we're adapting what we do understand for our use. We don't understand the Reaper tech, and given the dire consequences of previous investigation into Reapers (IFF mission being one of the most poignant examples), it is naive to think that we could use Reaper technology safely.

We don't understand the Mass Effect relays, or the Citadel, and civilization is based off of them.

Why you think that Cerberus will not try and understand the Collector Base technology is beyond me, since clearly the boon from the base is the ability to learn the technology, not that it's a supply depot with thousands of guns and armor and more ready to be picked up and slapped on ships.

You appear to have missed the point regarding Mass Effect relays. Countless races have paid the price for using technology that they don't understand - extinction at the hands of the Reapers. It's only been through the efforts of the Protheans (using their OWN TECHNOLOGY) that the disaster was averted for us, supplemented by Shepard's actions in defeating Saren/Sovereign and the Collectors/Harbinger.

Protheans never developed their own technology, any more than anyone else. What they did was advance further than the Reapers expected and made a one-way Mass Relay, the epitomony of Reaper technology.

Your argument runs counter to your own point. The Protheans did not surpass other races and break the cycle by developing their own technology: they surpassed other races in climbing higher along the Reaper development path, and were thus able to do things the Reapers did not intend. One one species has even slightly successfully oppose the Reapers, and they did so by Reaper technology greater than what the Reapers intended.

There is a consistent statement that using technology beyond what you understand in order to fast-track the development of your species is a bad idea - see Legion's discussion of the Heretics. There is no reason you cannot learn from other species - but you must be mindful of the agenda of that other species and whether this is an attempt to further the development of the galaxy. Reapers only want the galaxy developed just enough so that they can harvest a species for their own means... it hardly seems an intelligent choice to try and use their own technology against them particularly if you don't understand it, and especially when the price for failure is indoctrination.

The funny thing about Legion, however, is that he's just as quick to use other people's technology for gain as the rest of the galaxy. He's willing to use the Reaper-assited Heretic virus, he's willing give data for the Widow sniper rifle, and even the Reaper's own future that they're building isn't a technological innovation, but simply a really big computer mainframe.

The Collector Base technology is a chance to understand higher technology on your own. You are not providing a good reason why taking, studying, and using advanced technology on your own terms is good from one source and not from another.

[AmstradHero]

Dean: Unfortunately you've completely missed my point, and are cherry picking points of arguments so that they "support" your own view rather than reading posts as a coherent argument.

The Protheans developed their own Mass Relay and prevented the signal for the Reapers to return being sent. They understood how to create their own Mass Relay and stop the Keepers from sending the signal. Their own technology allowed them to prevent the Reapers from destroying the next civilizations in the cycle.

But I doubt anything I say can sway your opinion since you are don't seem to be able to consider any opinion other than your own. So my thanks for posing some interesting thoughts, but I'm going to bow out of the discussion from this point on.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 02 mai 2010 - 12:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Arawn-Loki wrote...

[quote]Of for...

No. Renegade is not immoral. Grow up and look at the world good and bad, rather than wrap yourself in idealism of that it's all good deep down. A Renegade believes in a different code of ethics, but the reason why some people believe the ends justify the means is because the end is what endures and that's what people remember most at the end of the day. Renegade and Paragon are already too widely spread, but a belief that all person's lives are innately equal and above politics are precisely what will lead someone to choose to save the Collector Base: the most lives saved most assuradely.

You would rather risk galactic extinction and sacrifice possibly billions of lives that could be saved in the name of your ideal political set up for what is historically a xeno-nationalist (racist, when applied to everyone else in the game) influence racket with a deserved reputation for genocide. That does not come across as ethical: any Renegade who made the choice to save the base would have more grounds to say they care more about lives than you.[/quote]

Don't compartmentalize me into your concept of Paragon. Criticize Paragon all you want, but don't interpose my person in it. [/quote]You'll notice I never called you a Paragon. I simply said that Renegades who made the choice would have a better justification for claiming to care about lives than you.

[quote]You are getting worked up about semantics that make no difference. Ethics is a method. In theory, the methodology of a Renegade is that strategies which produce good outcomes are the appropritate methods. Since mortal knowledge is finite and habit and instinct are instrumental to our actions, in practice the methodology of a Renegade tends to involve unnecessarily high levels of impatience, intolerance and bigotry, as sentimental anchors in decision-making. [/quote]By the same yardstick, Paragon tends towards a lack of identity and community, self-denying adoration towards authority however justified, baseless absolution, and a willingness to abandon one's purpose for acting if distracted by a particular turn of words.


[quote]
Reapers and their technology are not distinct in the way humans and our technology are. The Collectors demonstrate that. You haven't made a convincing argument to the contrary.


You could modify and adapt the designs of Reaper tech to make
something like a Thannix Canon, but the writing is on the wall that
their tech is an integration of organic and machine.
[/quote]Yes, I did, by pointing out all the instances in which Reaper technology is not synonymous with Reapers and organic Reaper materials. You even added one by throwing in Collector cybernetics, which would also not be made of Reaper materials.

Reapers, the ships, are a blend of organic and machine in which the organic is subordinated to the machine.

Reaper technology is just that: technology. The underpinnings and theories of why the Reapers work. It does not require organic interfacing or the organic-derived materials of the Reapers.

To the Reapers, they are not distinct: this is because the Reapers are synthetics, in the most literal sense of the word.In the same way, organics and organic chemistry is not distinct to humans. This has never implied that organic chemistry requires a person to work. Organic chemistry is, at its heart, chemistry, which occurs regardless of being organic or not.














[/quote]

[Dean_the_Young]

AmstradHero wrote...

Dean: Unfortunately you've completely missed my point, and are cherry picking points of arguments so that they "support" your own view rather than reading posts as a coherent argument.

The Protheans developed their own Mass Relay and prevented the signal for the Reapers to return being sent. They understood how to create their own Mass Relay and stop the Keepers from sending the signal. Their own technology allowed them to prevent the Reapers from destroying the next civilizations in the cycle.

But I doubt anything I say can sway your opinion since you are don't seem to be able to consider any opinion other than your own. So my thanks for posing some interesting thoughts, but I'm going to bow out of the discussion from this point on.

They only understood how to build a Mass Relay after (presumably centuries) of studying and using the Mass Relays without understanding. There is no way to get around the fact that they didn't come up with the idea for a Mass Relay, or devise the theory on their own, or even wait until they understood it before using it. They developed the purest path of Reaper technology, using pure Reaper technology as their base of study. If you keep the Collector Base, you'll be doing the same.

That's not cherry picking. That's the foundation of a parking lot. If by cherry picking you mean not addressing the 'understood technology is nullified', then that simply isn't going to be taken credibly when you point to the creation of a Mass Relay, something only the Reapers have mastery over and completely understand, as the great success of the Prothean people. Either facing the Reapers with technology they understand will work (the Protheans), or not.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 mai 2010 - 12:17 .

[Schroing]

Bioware/maybe EA is/maybe are dumb and can't keep their themes straight.



Duh.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
See, the theme of the game is exactly the opposite. Even, especially, when your enemies are 100's of years more advanced, you are supposed to not take their technology.[/quote]
Actually no. This is called an pro/con of taking the collectors base. Your assuming that no matter what, the collector base is an treasure trove of infomation. It could easily be your downfall becuase in the end, you still following the reapers plan of tech advacement.



[quote]
Now you're countering your own point. You were praising the Thannix Cannons as justified because they were things the Reapers would not have wanted you to use. Now you oppose the much richer rewards of the Reaper base, and you're dismissing it as predictable.
[/quote]
No I am not countering my point, I'm presenting both sides of the argument. You can easily take the collector's technology, you may get something good out of it. You may not. I am not praising the Thannix Cannons. I am simply saying that I just came back to the dead, and my mission is to kill the collectors. Hmm... I guess I might need those cannons despite the fact that I don't like following reapers tech. I don't have the time to develop my own.


[quote]
You aren't going to be surprising the Reapers with effective new tech, because your alternative paths are (a) going to be build off the current galactic standard, based off of e-zero mass effect Reaper tech, or ( hundreds of years behind the galactic standard, at which point different but hundreds of years too soon is far inferior to Reapers standards. (After all, the Mars data cache boosted human development 200 years according to Anderson: that's 200 years you'll have to make up.)
[/quote]
That is an assumption on your part. You are assuming that nothing good or useful can occur because we don't have reaper technology. plain and simple.

[quote]
Moreover, you pose a false delimma. There is absolutely no reason why you can not combine advanced Reaper technology with whatever 'different' technology research you wish. Infact, more advanced Reaper sciences would be better placed to help in alternative research.
[/quote]
It took them two years to make the Thannix Cannon, whatever technology you get from the reapers will be just that. And uh no. If you send all your scientists to get reaper tech reverse engieered, who is going to be developing the alternate tech. The other researches may have been wild goose chases, but eventually someone would have struck gold. Instead, when the mass relays were discovered, everyone abrandoned such research.


[quote][quote]
Yes because I don't have said options to use otherwise. I have their tech and only their tech. Humans were working on an form of instellar travel before they discovered the Mass Relays. Now Imangine if we had developed that and traveled to another star system? Space Travel as we know it, would be radically different. The game would be radically different as the Alliance would be able to travel to any point in space without the use of mass relays. That is the difference. I have no choice at the moment, but do I take that leap of faith and hope good old human Ingenuinity will come up with something? Sure. [/quote]

First and foremost, human attempts were referred to as the Goose Chase projects: no anticipated likely success. Second, they proposed FTL were far inferior to the Mass Relays: FTL in ME is on a scale of solar systems. The Mass Relays are on a scale of galaxies. The scale is completely different and outweighed by the Mass Effect technology.
[/quote]

Assumption on your part that it would be inferior. It is quite an possbility we could have built another mass relay eventually. secondly, my FTL drives can't be turned off because the reapers flip an switch. Plain and simple.

[quote][quote]
Ok, how about this, Galactic Community. [/quote]The Galactic Community based on reverse engineering, Mass Effeect, and industrial espionage for advancement?
[/quote]
Sure. Though individual advacement has happened. You assuming that everyone is stealing ideas from everyone and that no one is off in an corner making their own ideas. People are making their own ideas. Mordin genophage is an product. He didn't copy it from anyone. Didn't look back in the history books and was like "O hey, since the turians did this centuries ago, this can solve our problem!" 



[quote]
The basis of 'worthiness' is that there is, in fact, someone qualified to judge it so. In Mass Effect, the people claiming the right of judgement about whether other people are worthy or experienced enough to access advanced technology are the ones who did it fastest, and have extreme interest in preserving their position and authority.
[/quote]
yes and then there is people like us or any other alien speices who go ahead and do it anyway.


[quote]
The Volus have managed the Galactic Economy for longer than most races have been in space. They were the third to discover the Citadel, they predate the Krogan, the Turians, and predate Humanity by two thousand years. They have never started a war, are indespensible with the Galactic Economy, have supported all the major Citadel conflicts (Rachni Wars, Krogan Rebellions) as best as they could.
[/quote]
Yes well, the Volus should stop maintaining the economy and let it go to **** if they had wanted to get an seat on the council. The Council would be quick to let them. It's the fault of Volous for not trying to attain an seat. We managed just fine.

[quote]
A thousand years later, the just-discovered Turians are made the third member of the Citadel, for having the biggest fleet. A thousand after that, the Humans, for having another big fleet. In ME1, musings for the next Council Member are either Hanar or Elcore.

That's not a system that judges worthiness on maturity and experience.
That's an influence racket.
[/quote]
yes well it came out of requirement for it to exist. Everything does. The council exists because someone felt it needed to exist. The members were decided by those who felt who should be on it. Like I said in the Thread, the Council is equivliant to the U.N. bloody useless most of the time unless something needs to be done RFN. If the Volus has made their need to have an council seat exist, they would have it.


[quote]
Putting 'space' before combat doesn't change the fact: technological advancement doesn't nullify prior technology in any regards except increased effectiveness.

Without an understanding of Reaper tech, the ability to develop anything for use against the Reapers is highly diminished. By any measure, a weapon that would reliably shut the Reapers off for a limited amount of time is far superior to a possible hypothetical that can't even promise to do a fraction of the effectiveness. That EMP bomb alone would win the war, by giving a weapon that would allow ME1 technologies (dreadnaught fire, etc.) to be effective.

[/quote]

I totally agree, you have to weigh in all these facts.

Does the technology mean that human try to take control of the galaxy/council? Does it mean they succeed?

Does the technology advacement ensures victory against the Reapers... no it doesn't.

Does it ensure better understanding - It's an possiblity.

Does destroying the base mean maintaining galaxy security and sability in any sense of the word and having spieces unite against the reapers - Sure.

How much do you trust cerbersus? Personally me, I trust them as far as i can throw them.. o wait I can't.

In the end, you have to weigh in all these factors when deciding wthether to keep or destroy this base. It's an possbility that there is nothing worth keeping in the base, it's an possbility that there is an ton of cool stuff here. IT's an possiblity it can lose or win you the war against the reapers.

In the end, our debate here is meaningless because we have different views on how to attain the end result. I prefer unity of the speices against the reapers then human domence in the galaxy. I also prefer everyone working to an common goal - IE our extinction as an galactic civilization. I feel we can get better results this way. You feel that keeping the base and potentially having Cerbersus use this technology to take over is ok. Lovely debate either way.

[Dean_the_Young]

Schroing wrote...

Bioware/maybe EA is/maybe are dumb and can't keep their themes straight.

Duh.

Ah, the truth at last!

[Dean_the_Young]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
See, the theme of the game is exactly the opposite. Even, especially, when your enemies are 100's of years more advanced, you are supposed to not take their technology.

Actually no. This is called an pro/con of taking the collectors base. Your assuming that no matter what, the collector base is an treasure trove of infomation. It could easily be your downfall becuase in the end, you still following the reapers plan of tech advacement.

The game has themes that are separate from the choices you can actually make. The pros/cons of the individual choice don't change the themes of the story. In ME1, one of the themes of Renegade was xenonationalism. That more or less faded away in ME2.

The Reaper Plan of advancement stops at the Citadel and the Keepers. Their plan has always been for no one else to go any further, on account of being wiped out. Taking the Reaper technology from the Collector Base isn't following the Plan, it's running over the plan, folding it into a paper football, and running a hundred more yards for good measure.

There's no assuming the base is full of tech: the game tells you that as the foundation for your decision. It can be taken to the bank.

No I am not countering my point, I'm presenting both sides of the argument. You can easily take the collector's technology, you may get something good out of it. You may not. I am not praising the Thannix Cannons. I am simply saying that I just came back to the dead, and my mission is to kill the collectors. Hmm... I guess I might need those cannons despite the fact that I don't like following reapers tech. I don't have the time to develop my own.

Presenting both sides of an argument is countering your own position: the point of bringing the other side is to refute it, not acknowled it.

Coming back from the dead has no bearing on whether the Thannix is Reaper-derived. Either you accept it, at which point you've rejected the theme, or you don't, at which you accept it.

That is an assumption on your part. You are assuming that nothing good or useful can occur because we don't have reaper technology. plain and simple.

The importance isn't who's technology: the importance is equivalent technology (which, as has already been mentioned, is not an infinite field of options). You need equivalent technology, as best as you can, to oppose the Reapers. It's the only way to overcome technological superiority.

The thing is, there are three routes: a direct route through the Collector Base, deemed Reaper-technology, advancing the current Galactic Standard, which is based on the Reaper plan and would develop the same way but nowhere near as surely, or go back 200 odd years of human development and try hitting something from there. But 200 years of development is still 200 years, and without a shortcut that's how long it will take just to catch up with the galactic equivalent.

It took them two years to make the Thannix Cannon, whatever technology you get from the reapers will be just that. And uh no. If you send all your scientists to get reaper tech reverse engieered, who is going to be developing the alternate tech. The other researches may have been wild goose chases, but eventually someone would have struck gold. Instead, when the mass relays were discovered, everyone abrandoned such research.

All scientists won't be working on the Collector Base: Cerberus scientists will. The rest of the scientists may not be as effective as if Cerberus were joined with them, but there's no reason they can't work.

The assumption that there is a non-Mass Effect FTL is something we have no basis for in Mass Effect, since Mass Effect fields are the one way around e=mc^2. Saying 'eventually someone would have struck gold' presupposes that an alternative FTL method does exist... and when there is nothing suggesting that it does, or is anywhere near effective.

Assumption on your part that it would be inferior. It is quite an possbility we could have built another mass relay eventually. secondly, my FTL drives can't be turned off because the reapers flip an switch. Plain and simple.

The assumption that it wouldn't be as effective comes from that the Reapers set their system: they'd have little to no reason to support an inferior technological path. The Reaper strategy focuses first and foremost on travel control, and methods better than their own would risk invalidating the trap. Since the point of the Reaper tech path is to lead to the Citadel, offering the goodies of the most effective path would be the best bait.

Moreover, Mass Effect FTL drives aren't turned off when the Reapers come. The Mass Relays are, but they're not even a drive, something else entirely (their scope and scale being galactic, not merely FTL). Actual FTL drives, like when you fly around the various clusters, are independent of the Reaper's influence.



There wasn't much left to say, or disagree on, so perhaps you left a bit too soon? 

[Arawn-Loki]

You'll notice I never called you a Paragon. I simply said that Renegades who made the choice would have a better justification for claiming to care about lives than you.

You gave a prescription directly to me, rather than confining yourself to discussing the bad points of the concept without involving my person. That's the contentious point.

By the same yardstick, Paragon tends towards a lack of identity and community, self-denying adoration towards authority however justified, baseless absolution, and a willingness to abandon one's purpose for acting if distracted by a particular turn of words.

Neither route is perfect. I think the Morality System of Mass Effect doesn't leave a lot of room for nuance, but that's inevitable in a game where player decisions are supposed to have an influence on outcomes in the plot.

Yes, I did, by pointing out all the instances in which Reaper technology is not synonymous with Reapers and organic Reaper materials. You even added one by throwing in Collector cybernetics, which would also not be made of Reaper materials.

Perhaps I have blended the line too much between particulars and the abstract. However, Collectors are Reaper technology. The power of Collector weaponry comes from their organic components.

Reapers, the ships, are a blend of organic and machine in which the organic is subordinated to the machine.

Okay.

Reaper technology is just that: technology. The underpinnings and theories of why the Reapers work. It does not require organic interfacing or the organic-derived materials of the Reapers.

Unless the key of the high performance of Reaper technology is that the organic components produce Biotic effects (aka, categories of Mass Effect field) that amplify performance of the synthetics. Even if Biotics aren't the key, which you can argue on the strength of the Thannix canon, they are a major element in Reaper operations, because Harbinger makes a big deal about them.  

Look, the point is that adapting Reaper technology made intrisically require revisions in organic biology, society, and culture. Considering ALL Collector Tech, the Tech the Renegade saves, has an organic component, I don't believe you can disregard the organic aspect of Reaper tech. The Thannix Canon cannot be weighed against all Collector tech. The Collector Ship and the Collector Base are all organic. That is not incidental to the Tech,

Modifié par Arawn-Loki, 02 mai 2010 - 01:03 .