164 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

The Collector base is not just your benefit. It's humanlity benefit.
Most of whom aren't the sharpest tools or the brightest bulbs in the
drawer.

You have an stack of 12 weapons which are cains. You have yourself and 11 others, 6 of whom aren't the brightest bulbs and who could poteinally use it wrongly for their own selfish purposes. Do you honest to god want to give them cains?

I think this hits an important issue as well. It's not simply studying the technology that is a problem. If whatever scientists we employed took whatever they learned carefully, I'd be all for keeping the base. Unfortunately I'm not that confident that they would be cautious. It's far more likely that they'd indiscriminantly duplicate the Council's original error and copy all Reaper technology with little consideration of the potential consequences.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 02 mai 2010 - 11:10 .

[Malanek]

I don't think the moral of the story is that every species should develop their own technology. It seems people are placing too much stock in something that Sovereign said. Sovereign failed and is dust. If anything it is a minor theme that is touched on and open to debate, it isn't rammed down your throat.

As for a few comments about the mass relays removing the incentive to develop alternative methods of FTL travel, I don't agree with that either. There are not mass relays everywhere you want to travel and if you were able to develop an alternative means of ultra quick travel that would be worth massive amounts of credits even given the prescence of mass relays. People were talking about steam versus combustion engines and the fact that when the combustion engine was developed scientists stopped trying to improve the steam engine. That's because it became obsolete. If a different means of equally quick and cheap FTL travel was developed the mass relays would become obsolete. It is still technology worth striving for.

For the record I think keeping the collector base would have been the smart move and I can't understand why almost everyone on your crew thought it was stupid. If anything I would have liked the paragon choice to be focused on the fact that it was too dangerous to leave in Cerberus hands rather than being morally offensive in what the lines of research were.

[Solomen]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...


So something like, say cars today. Internal combustion cars are hurting the environment. By some of the logic here (for those who support keeping the Collector Base who argue against those who destroyed it), cars should all be destroyed and transportation tech should be reset. Whereas you're saying we brach off the path we are given. So instead of continuing making gasoline cars, we branch off that tech towards say, Hydrogen Fuel cell cars or Electric cars. Not continuing on the path, but not completely demolishing it either. Right?

Percisely. yup. Why Re-invent the wheel. There is no two polar oppsites you HAVE to choose. You can easily use reaper tech as the foundation and just go off on your own from there.

It's like giving someone 3 grand to start an business. The money was invested in the business, techinally it was founded upon your money, but eventually the business may shift from making airplane parts to boat parts. In the end, the founding money that started the business was that 3k. What the business ended up doing was shifting from airplane parts to boat parts eventually, becoming something inherently different from the orginal business.

If you use reaper tech, there's two problems: if you design a boat from airplane technology it's still derived from airplane technology, and it's still violating the principle ofnot using airplane technology at all. Of course you don't believe in that principle in the first place, so it doesn't matter much.

Yes, and If I recall, you did say it was stupid not to use such advacements, I never said I had the qualms with using it unless I needed to. Eventually your now boat business would eventually split from reaper airplane technology by matter of progress.

Another Analogy

If you turn an animal that was an duck, so that now it jumped 15ft, but it is still aquatic flying animal and it now croacks. It is still reaper technology. I now transform said duck so that it can jump, (losing the ability to fly), and now it can dive under the water and catch insects with it's tongue. Also it no longers has any feathers but repltilan skin. This is the end product after an line of 7 different models of this animal.


What orginally was an duck, is now called an frog. Is there now any qualities that distinctly say it's an duck now?

Bad analogy... a better one would be is a duck still a bipedal dinosaur since theropods became birds.  A bird has never become a frog to my knowledge... that would be like reapers giving up their advancement to adopt human tech...

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Solomen wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...


So something like, say cars today. Internal combustion cars are hurting the environment. By some of the logic here (for those who support keeping the Collector Base who argue against those who destroyed it), cars should all be destroyed and transportation tech should be reset. Whereas you're saying we brach off the path we are given. So instead of continuing making gasoline cars, we branch off that tech towards say, Hydrogen Fuel cell cars or Electric cars. Not continuing on the path, but not completely demolishing it either. Right?

Percisely. yup. Why Re-invent the wheel. There is no two polar oppsites you HAVE to choose. You can easily use reaper tech as the foundation and just go off on your own from there.

It's like giving someone 3 grand to start an business. The money was invested in the business, techinally it was founded upon your money, but eventually the business may shift from making airplane parts to boat parts. In the end, the founding money that started the business was that 3k. What the business ended up doing was shifting from airplane parts to boat parts eventually, becoming something inherently different from the orginal business.

If you use reaper tech, there's two problems: if you design a boat from airplane technology it's still derived from airplane technology, and it's still violating the principle ofnot using airplane technology at all. Of course you don't believe in that principle in the first place, so it doesn't matter much.

Yes, and If I recall, you did say it was stupid not to use such advacements, I never said I had the qualms with using it unless I needed to. Eventually your now boat business would eventually split from reaper airplane technology by matter of progress.

Another Analogy

If you turn an animal that was an duck, so that now it jumped 15ft, but it is still aquatic flying animal and it now croacks. It is still reaper technology. I now transform said duck so that it can jump, (losing the ability to fly), and now it can dive under the water and catch insects with it's tongue. Also it no longers has any feathers but repltilan skin. This is the end product after an line of 7 different models of this animal.


What orginally was an duck, is now called an frog. Is there now any qualities that distinctly say it's an duck now?

Bad analogy... a better one would be is a duck still a bipedal dinosaur since theropods became birds.  A bird has never become a frog to my knowledge... that would be like reapers giving up their advancement to adopt human tech...

Actually, it's an pretty good analogy. The point being an duck is reaper tech. An Frog is other advacements added onto it. Eventually the reaper tech gets over written so much, it doesn't even ressemble reaper tech anymore.

While I love your duck analogy to an dinosaur, I thought this example got to the roots of how technology advacements are made. They are made in increments that overwrite previous ones to the point where an product no longer looks like the orginal product.

[Il Divo]

Shandepared wrote...

Actually the opposite is true. The only reason we are still around now to fight the Reapers is because the Protheans studied Reaper technology until they understood it and were able to replicate it by building their own mass relay. If we want to survive then we need to do the same with mass relays and with any other Reaper technologies we can get our hands on. In order to do that we need the Collector base.

Had we never copied what we believed to be Prothean technology (although Reaper in origin) which was foreign, humanity would have likely progressed along very different paths. They would not have been around to even be exterminated. The Protheans were a different case because they took Reaper technology and adapted it. They progressed beyond what the Reapers had intended. But this still did not save them.

Assuming we were to follow the strategy of adaptation, I would agree that preserving the facility would be the best action. But how long was it before the Protheans ultimately realized that they could alter Reaper technology? If I remember correctly, it was not until after the Reapers had gone into hibernation that the Protheans altered the Citadel's signal. I am less confident in our abilities to adapt whatever Reaper technology we find on the Collector base. It is more likely that we will blindly copy whatever we find, a strategy the Reapers will see coming since they know it is in our possession at this time.

Modifié par Il Divo, 02 mai 2010 - 11:23 .

[Solomen]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Solomen wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

InHarmsWay wrote...


So something like, say cars today. Internal combustion cars are hurting the environment. By some of the logic here (for those who support keeping the Collector Base who argue against those who destroyed it), cars should all be destroyed and transportation tech should be reset. Whereas you're saying we brach off the path we are given. So instead of continuing making gasoline cars, we branch off that tech towards say, Hydrogen Fuel cell cars or Electric cars. Not continuing on the path, but not completely demolishing it either. Right?

Percisely. yup. Why Re-invent the wheel. There is no two polar oppsites you HAVE to choose. You can easily use reaper tech as the foundation and just go off on your own from there.

It's like giving someone 3 grand to start an business. The money was invested in the business, techinally it was founded upon your money, but eventually the business may shift from making airplane parts to boat parts. In the end, the founding money that started the business was that 3k. What the business ended up doing was shifting from airplane parts to boat parts eventually, becoming something inherently different from the orginal business.

If you use reaper tech, there's two problems: if you design a boat from airplane technology it's still derived from airplane technology, and it's still violating the principle ofnot using airplane technology at all. Of course you don't believe in that principle in the first place, so it doesn't matter much.

Yes, and If I recall, you did say it was stupid not to use such advacements, I never said I had the qualms with using it unless I needed to. Eventually your now boat business would eventually split from reaper airplane technology by matter of progress.

Another Analogy

If you turn an animal that was an duck, so that now it jumped 15ft, but it is still aquatic flying animal and it now croacks. It is still reaper technology. I now transform said duck so that it can jump, (losing the ability to fly), and now it can dive under the water and catch insects with it's tongue. Also it no longers has any feathers but repltilan skin. This is the end product after an line of 7 different models of this animal.


What orginally was an duck, is now called an frog. Is there now any qualities that distinctly say it's an duck now?

Bad analogy... a better one would be is a duck still a bipedal dinosaur since theropods became birds.  A bird has never become a frog to my knowledge... that would be like reapers giving up their advancement to adopt human tech...

Actually, it's an pretty good analogy. The point being an duck is reaper tech. An Frog is other advacements added onto it. Eventually the reaper tech gets over written so much, it doesn't even ressemble reaper tech anymore.

While I love your duck analogy to an dinosaur, I thought this example got to the roots of how technology advacements are made. They are made in increments that overwrite previous ones to the point where an product no longer looks like the orginal product.

You have it backwards still... you could go from frog to duck but it really doesn't work the other way.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Solomen wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Actually, it's an pretty good analogy. The point being an duck is reaper tech. An Frog is other advacements added onto it. Eventually the reaper tech gets over written so much, it doesn't even ressemble reaper tech anymore.

While I love your duck analogy to an dinosaur, I thought this example got to the roots of how technology advacements are made. They are made in increments that overwrite previous ones to the point where an product no longer looks like the orginal product.

You have it backwards still... you could go from frog to duck but it really doesn't work the other way.

how do you mean that I can not go backwards? If reaper tech was the frog, I could easily go into an duck just the same. The analogy is based upon the fact that you are starting with reaper tech (frog or duck) and tranforming it into an alternate form (if started with an duck, then frog, and vice versa) with your own advacements upon said tech.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 02 mai 2010 - 11:31 .

[Malanek]

Shandepared wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

You here make the point that people/civilizations which don't adapt typically fall to technologically superior rivals. Normally you would be right. But the very reason why every previous civilization has fallen is because they have chosen to copy Reaper technology. Every single one.

Actually the opposite is true. The only reason we are still around now to fight the Reapers is because the Protheans studied Reaper technology until they understood it and were able to replicate it by building their own mass relay. If we want to survive then we need to do the same with mass relays and with any other Reaper technologies we can get our hands on. In order to do that we need the Collector base.

Agree with Shandepared. Saying every single civilisation fell because they chose to copy reaper tech and advance along the chosen path is crazy. They fell because they were up against a massively more advanced and powerful civilisation that was hellbent on their destruction. If anything the mass relay system seems to be more about conveniance for the reapers than anything else.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Malanek999 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

You here make the point that people/civilizations which don't adapt typically fall to technologically superior rivals. Normally you would be right. But the very reason why every previous civilization has fallen is because they have chosen to copy Reaper technology. Every single one.

Actually the opposite is true. The only reason we are still around now to fight the Reapers is because the Protheans studied Reaper technology until they understood it and were able to replicate it by building their own mass relay. If we want to survive then we need to do the same with mass relays and with any other Reaper technologies we can get our hands on. In order to do that we need the Collector base.

Agree with Shandepared. Saying every single civilisation fell because they chose to copy reaper tech and advance along the chosen path is crazy. They fell because they were up against a massively more advanced and powerful civilisation that was hellbent on their destruction. If anything the mass relay system seems to be more about conveniance for the reapers than anything else.

It was also an pittrap to slow down the alien races using it as everyone would be temporarily trapped and wondering what is going on and each colony would do an mass attempt to fix it, or just sit there, assuming someone would eventually figure it out.

It was meant to rip out the head of the govenment for the alien races and slow down any possible military attempt to combat the reapers. If you only have two or three armies assembled and the other 7 are seperated into trapped patrols, you can not bring all your forces to bear on the reapers. Then all that would occur would be to re-activate one or two mass relays at an time and wipe everything out, slowly but surely making progress around.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 02 mai 2010 - 11:38 .

[Solomen]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Solomen wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Actually, it's an pretty good analogy. The point being an duck is reaper tech. An Frog is other advacements added onto it. Eventually the reaper tech gets over written so much, it doesn't even ressemble reaper tech anymore.

While I love your duck analogy to an dinosaur, I thought this example got to the roots of how technology advacements are made. They are made in increments that overwrite previous ones to the point where an product no longer looks like the orginal product.

You have it backwards still... you could go from frog to duck but it really doesn't work the other way.

how do you mean that I can not go backwards? If reaper tech was the frog, I could easily go into an duck just the same. The analogy is based upon the fact that you are starting with reaper tech (frog or duck) and tranforming it into an alternate form (if started with an duck, then frog, and vice versa) with your own advacements upon said tech.

A frog is not an advancement to a duck.  A reptile is an upgraded amphibian.  A theropod is a bipedal alteration to the reptile. The bird is an alternate upgrade to the theropod with the T-rex being the other upgrade.  Ducks are augmented birds with aquatic adaption. Both the duck and the t-rex started with basically the same tech but diverged along radically different paths.

[Malanek]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

You here make the point that people/civilizations which don't adapt typically fall to technologically superior rivals. Normally you would be right. But the very reason why every previous civilization has fallen is because they have chosen to copy Reaper technology. Every single one.

Actually the opposite is true. The only reason we are still around now to fight the Reapers is because the Protheans studied Reaper technology until they understood it and were able to replicate it by building their own mass relay. If we want to survive then we need to do the same with mass relays and with any other Reaper technologies we can get our hands on. In order to do that we need the Collector base.

Agree with Shandepared. Saying every single civilisation fell because they chose to copy reaper tech and advance along the chosen path is crazy. They fell because they were up against a massively more advanced and powerful civilisation that was hellbent on their destruction. If anything the mass relay system seems to be more about conveniance for the reapers than anything else.

It was also an pittrap to slow down the alien races using it as everyone would be temporarily trapped and wondering what is going on and each colony would do an mass attempt to fix it, or just sit there, assuming someone would eventually figure it out.

It was meant to rip out the head of the govenment for the alien races and slow down any possible military attempt to combat the reapers. If you only have two or three armies assembled and the other 7 are seperated into trapped patrols, you can not bring all your forces to bear on the reapers. Then all that would occur would be to re-activate one or two mass relays at an time and wipe everything out, slowly but surely making progress around.

I agree with all that. However it wasn't THE reason those previous civilisations fell. They would have fallen anyway. It just made it easier and quicker for the reapers to catch them all at once by surprise and do their thing. Even without surprise the reapers would still have had a massive advantage over any of those civilisations.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Solomen wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Solomen wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Actually, it's an pretty good analogy. The point being an duck is reaper tech. An Frog is other advacements added onto it. Eventually the reaper tech gets over written so much, it doesn't even ressemble reaper tech anymore.

While I love your duck analogy to an dinosaur, I thought this example got to the roots of how technology advacements are made. They are made in increments that overwrite previous ones to the point where an product no longer looks like the orginal product.

You have it backwards still... you could go from frog to duck but it really doesn't work the other way.

how do you mean that I can not go backwards? If reaper tech was the frog, I could easily go into an duck just the same. The analogy is based upon the fact that you are starting with reaper tech (frog or duck) and tranforming it into an alternate form (if started with an duck, then frog, and vice versa) with your own advacements upon said tech.

A frog is not an advancement to a duck.  A reptile is an upgraded amphibian.  A theropod is a bipedal alteration to the reptile. The bird is an alternate upgrade to the theropod with the T-rex being the other upgrade.  Ducks are augmented birds with aquatic adaption. Both the duck and the t-rex started with basically the same tech but diverged along radically different paths.

 touche. I conceed my arguement.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Malanek999 wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

It was also an pittrap to slow down the alien races using it as everyone would be temporarily trapped and wondering what is going on and each colony would do an mass attempt to fix it, or just sit there, assuming someone would eventually figure it out.

It was meant to rip out the head of the govenment for the alien races and slow down any possible military attempt to combat the reapers. If you only have two or three armies assembled and the other 7 are seperated into trapped patrols, you can not bring all your forces to bear on the reapers. Then all that would occur would be to re-activate one or two mass relays at an time and wipe everything out, slowly but surely making progress around.

I agree with all that. However it wasn't THE reason those previous civilisations fell. They would have fallen anyway. It just made it easier and quicker for the reapers to catch them all at once by surprise and do their thing. Even without surprise the reapers would still have had a massive advantage over any of those civilisations.

I don't know about that, what happens if it's an big military type races where there is lots of fleets with dreadnoughts etc? I don't know if the reapers are really THAT inviciable, I would assume they would take fairly heavy losses facing an very military like foe.

I would say the mass relays are part of the reason why they fell, otherwise the reapers would have just streamrolled us already if they didn't need the mass relays.

I think the mass relays are pretty much a 1-2 punch. First one is cutting off the govenment, second is trapping everyone in sections of the galaxy.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 02 mai 2010 - 11:57 .

[Solomen]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

It was also an pittrap to slow down the alien races using it as everyone would be temporarily trapped and wondering what is going on and each colony would do an mass attempt to fix it, or just sit there, assuming someone would eventually figure it out.

It was meant to rip out the head of the govenment for the alien races and slow down any possible military attempt to combat the reapers. If you only have two or three armies assembled and the other 7 are seperated into trapped patrols, you can not bring all your forces to bear on the reapers. Then all that would occur would be to re-activate one or two mass relays at an time and wipe everything out, slowly but surely making progress around.

I agree with all that. However it wasn't THE reason those previous civilisations fell. They would have fallen anyway. It just made it easier and quicker for the reapers to catch them all at once by surprise and do their thing. Even without surprise the reapers would still have had a massive advantage over any of those civilisations.

I don't know about that, what happens if it's an big military type races where there is lots of fleets with dreadnoughts etc? I don't know if the reapers are really THAT inviciable, I would assume they would take fairly heavy losses facing an very military like foe.

I would say the mass relays are part of the reason why they fell, otherwise the reapers would have just streamrolled us already if they didn't need the mass relays.

I think the mass relays are pretty much a 1-2 punch. First one is cutting off the govenment, second is trapping everyone in sections of the galaxy.

Somebody besides Shep actually managed to take one down...  So they would rather not risk that kind of confrontation

[Malanek]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
I don't know about that, what happens if it's an big military type races where there is lots of fleets with dreadnoughts etc? I don't know if the reapers are really THAT inviciable, I would assume they would take fairly heavy losses facing an very military like foe.

I would say the mass relays are part of the reason why they fell, otherwise the reapers would have just streamrolled us already if they didn't need the mass relays.

I think the mass relays are pretty much a 1-2 punch. First one is cutting off the govenment, second is trapping everyone in sections of the galaxy.

I think hypothetically if a civilisation did ignore the mass relays and start to develop alternative means of travel then the reaper that was left behind to monitor them would step in at that point to wipe them out. In the humans, asari, turians case they were developing along the lines that were expected so they were allowed to develop. They were then able to (at least temporarily) lock the reapers out thanks to the protheans knowledge of the mass relays. I can't see how not using the mass relays throughout the formative stages of intersteller travel would actually be an advantage.

[Il Divo]

Shandepared wrote...

I agree, and personally I would never have allowed anybody to use the Charon mass relay. Instead I'd have dismantled it and eventually built my own. Sadly, rational minds did not prevail and instead the relay was activated.

I'm glad you understand. I have no problem with Reaper technology. If humanity had understood the fundamental laws governing the mass relays, then I would be all for us having activated Charon. We didn't understand them and paid the price. Perhaps if we knew how they functioned, we would have understood what the Citadel truly was.
 

Which is exactly what we must do if we are to survive. We don't have the time to progress down different paths and even if we did how would you encourage anybody to do it? Our best chance is to study Reaper technology and understand it. If we do that we can re-adapt it so suit or own ends and use it against the Reapers just like the Protheans did. There is no other option.

Who's to say how long we have to develop? Do we know how long Reapers take to leave Dark Space? But this alternative still avoids the error of becoming too reliant on their means. The mistaken assumption everyone continues to make is that we will ultimately 're-adapt' it. What have we successfully re-adapted thus far? We certain didn't re-adapt the Relays. Or the Citadel. We evolved *exactly* as the Reapers intended us to, excluding a grand total of 12 Protheans. That is the problem I have with this logic train. It's assuming that we will advance the technology in some way instead of simply copying it, which is the reason why we found ourselves in this predicament.  

Apparently it was just in time for the next cycle to start. Once the Reapers had gone the surviving scientists, who numbered only 12, were able to finish the Conduit, travel to the Citadel, and alter the keepers. That so few were able to do all of that on their own indicates the Protheans had learned quite bit when they were extinguished. Humanity is in an even better position

Yes, humanity is in a better position. So perhaps we should make use of this better position. Take what Reaper technology we have already acquired: the relays, the Citadels, the Thanix Cannon, etc. Adapt it. Alter it. Improve it using your own abilities. If as we see with the Protheans they had to copy technology before they were able to adapt it, maybe we should skip that intermittent step. The Reapers once more are victorious during every cycle precisely because every species has simply copied their technology. They did nothing to truly make it 'theirs'. They understood what it did but little of how. This is not strength but weakness.

Why, what is your reasoning? To me it just sound supersitious. For what reason do you think we will fail to utilize the technology in the Collect base? The thannix cannon was derived from much less and look at how successful it was. The same with E.D.I. too.

What is superstitious? The idea that we are going to fall into our original error? That we might copy everything we find in the Collector base without making it ours? Again, I ask that you look at the mass relays. How much have we altered them? To my knowledge, not at all. They still remain the Reapers because we have left no mark of our own upon them. If all we do is copy Reaper technology, we have repeated our original error. Sovereign made it a point that organics' greatest strength was their randomness; they are difficult to predict. The Reapers fixed this by guiding us down a single road.

The Reapersk knowing that we have the Collector base changes nothing. What are they going to do, build a new base in the middle of dark space and spend five centuries researching new technologies of their own? 

Why does it change nothing? They knew we had obtained the Mass Relays and Citadel and that was enough to exterminate all organics. Their knowing that we possess the Collector Base means we will evolve once more along lines which they are able to predict, a single road which they can more easily control.

All the Reapers will know is that when they get here they will not have the same technological edge they've had in the past. That is in addition to them not being able to shut down the relay network, which isolates every cluster. The Reapers will be forced to fight the entire galaxy at once, which a great number of their foes armed with equivalent technology.

This of course even assumes at best that the Collector Base possesses enough information to put us on par with the Reapers. It also means they know exactly how we will develop. And who's to say how dangerous the Collector Base may be. It could possess its own Citadel-esque trap, a dangerous situation.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 mai 2010 - 12:19 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Malanek999 wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
I don't know about that, what happens if it's an big military type races where there is lots of fleets with dreadnoughts etc? I don't know if the reapers are really THAT inviciable, I would assume they would take fairly heavy losses facing an very military like foe.

I would say the mass relays are part of the reason why they fell, otherwise the reapers would have just streamrolled us already if they didn't need the mass relays.

I think the mass relays are pretty much a 1-2 punch. First one is cutting off the govenment, second is trapping everyone in sections of the galaxy.

I think hypothetically if a civilisation did ignore the mass relays and start to develop alternative means of travel then the reaper that was left behind to monitor them would step in at that point to wipe them out. In the humans, asari, turians case they were developing along the lines that were expected so they were allowed to develop. They were then able to (at least temporarily) lock the reapers out thanks to the protheans knowledge of the mass relays. I can't see how not using the mass relays throughout the formative stages of intersteller travel would actually be an advantage.

well it is hard for the reapers to flip the switch on you and trap you. If all your ships had alternate forms of travel other then mass relays, then turning off the mass relays mean nothing, which means if the race is heavy military, it wouldn't be hindered, it would be an full galaxy wide war with the reapers which could last for decades and cost the reapers dozens of un-needed casutlies. You probably are right about the reapers stepping in and wiping them out if they did not develop along mass relay lines, but still if they did develop along Mass Relay lines, and had heavy military, then not turning off the mass relays would hinder the reapers greatly if my point. It's hard for the reapers to fight cornered military patrols if they all gathered into massive fleet and hit the reapers head on.

[Solomen]

Il Divo wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

I agree, and personally I would never have allowed anybody to use the Charon mass relay. Instead I'd have dismantled it and eventually built my own. Sadly, rational minds did not prevail and instead the relay was activated.

I'm glad you understand. I have no problem with Reaper technology. If humanity had understood the fundamental laws governing the mass relays, then I would be all for us having activated Charon. We didn't understand them and paid the price. Perhaps if we knew how they functioned, we would have understood what the Citadel truly was.
 

Which is exactly what we must do if we are to survive. We don't have the time to progress down different paths and even if we did how would you encourage anybody to do it? Our best chance is to study Reaper technology and understand it. If we do that we can re-adapt it so suit or own ends and use it against the Reapers just like the Protheans did. There is no other option.

Who's to say how long we have to develop? Do we know how long Reapers take to leave Dark Space? But this alternative still avoids the error of becoming too reliant on their means. The mistaken assumption everyone continues to make is that we will ultimately 're-adapt' it. What have we successfully re-adapted thus far? We certain didn't re-adapt the Relays. Or the Citadel. We evolved *exactly* as the Reapers intended us to, excluding a grand total of 12 Protheans. That is the problem I have with this logic train. It's assuming that we will advance the technology in some way instead of simply copying it, which is the reason why we found ourselves in this predicament.  

Apparently it was just in time for the next cycle to start. Once the Reapers had gone the surviving scientists, who numbered only 12, were able to finish the Conduit, travel to the Citadel, and alter the keepers. That so few were able to do all of that on their own indicates the Protheans had learned quite bit when they were extinguished. Humanity is in an even better position

Yes, humanity is in a better position. So perhaps we should make use of this better position. Take what Reaper technology we have already acquired: the relays, the Citadels, the Thanix Cannon, etc. Adapt it. Alter it. Improve it using your own abilities. If as we see with the Protheans they had to copy technology before they were able to adapt it, maybe we should skip that intermittent step. The Reapers once more are victorious during every cycle precisely because every species has simply copied their technology. They did nothing to truly make it 'theirs'. They understood what it did but little of how. This is not strength but weakness.

Why, what is your reasoning? To me it just sound supersitious. For what reason do you think we will fail to utilize the technology in the Collect base? The thannix cannon was derived from much less and look at how successful it was. The same with E.D.I. too.

What is superstitious? The idea that we are going to fall into our original error? That we might copy everything we find in the Collector base without making it ours? Again, I ask that you look at the mass relays. How much have we altered them? To my knowledge, not at all. They still remain the Reapers because we have left no mark of our own upon them. If all we do is copy Reaper technology, we have repeated our original error. Sovereign made it a point that organics' greatest strength was their randomness; they are difficult to predict. The Reapers fixed this by guiding us down a single road.

The Reapersk knowing that we have the Collector base changes nothing. What are they going to do, build a new base in the middle of dark space and spend five centuries researching new technologies of their own? 

Why does it change nothing? They knew we had obtained the Mass Relays and Citadel and that was enough to exterminate all organics. Their knowing that we possess the Collector Base means we will evolve once more along lines which they are able to predict, a single road which they can more easily control.

All the Reapers will know is that when they get here they will not have the same technological edge they've had in the past. That is in addition to them not being able to shut down the relay network, which isolates every cluster. The Reapers will be forced to fight the entire galaxy at once, which a great number of their foes armed with equivalent technology.

This of course even assumes at best that the Collector Base possesses enough information to put us on par with the Reapers. It also means they know exactly how we will develop. And who's to say how dangerous the Collector Base may be. It could possess its own Citadel-esque trap, a dangerous situation.

Humans haven't copied or built the mass relays, they just use it.  In order to use the knowledge on the base you need to adapt it.  Its not just handed to you like the relays.  It is a chance to improve using reaper-tech along lines the reapers did not anticipate. 

[Il Divo]

Solomen wrote...

Humans haven't copied or built the mass relays, they just use it.  In order to use the knowledge on the base you need to adapt it.  Its not just handed to you like the relays.  It is a chance to improve using reaper-tech along lines the reapers did not anticipate. 

And that makes their crime so much worse. They are using something which they have absolutely no comprehension of. Sovereign specifically points out that all of our technology is based off Reaper-technology. Everything. Again we've evolved along paths which they predicted. In doing so, they brought 'order' to our 'chaos'. And brought about our destruction.

 People point out the Thanix Gun as an example of a counter to this. I'm not against obtaining a better weapon. I'm not against obtaining faster ships, better fuel, stronger shields, etc. It's not any one particular instance which you can point out; it's the very concept of copying all their technology. It ultimately weakens rather than strengthens us because we don't fully understand how it came about. This is not like switching from bronze to iron weapons. I doubt anyone expected an iron weapon to leap out of their hand and stab them because they did not understand its principles. But the Reapers presented us with an instance such as this for the first time.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 mai 2010 - 12:44 .

[Solomen]

Il Divo wrote...

Solomen wrote...

Humans haven't copied or built the mass relays, they just use it.  In order to use the knowledge on the base you need to adapt it.  Its not just handed to you like the relays.  It is a chance to improve using reaper-tech along lines the reapers did not anticipate. 

And that makes their crime so much worse. They are using something which they have absolutely no comprehension of. Sovereign specifically points out that all of our technology is based off Reaper-technology. Everything. Again we've evolved along paths which they predicted. In doing so, they brought 'order' to our 'chaos'. And brought about our destruction.

 People point out the Thanix Gun as an example of a counter to this. I'm not against obtaining a better weapon. I'm not against obtaining faster ships, better fuel, stronger shields, etc. It's not any one particular instance which you can point out; it's the very concept of copying all their technology. It ultimately weakens rather than strengthens us because we don't fully understand how it came about. This is not like switching from bronze to iron weapons. I doubt anyone expected an iron weapon to leap out of their hand and stab them because they did not understand its principles. But the Reapers presented us with an instance such as this for the first time.

The problem you are intentionally stepping around is how do you protect against something without knowledge of how it works.  If you know how a bullet works then you can design a vest to stop it

[Il Divo]

Solomen wrote...

The problem you are intentionally stepping around is how do you protect against something without knowledge of how it works.  If you know how a bullet works then you can design a vest to stop it

This is an invalid comparison because this is exactly what I mean by 'adaptation'. If this is what we are doing, I would actualy agree with you. A more accurate example would be if we used the bullet design to make our own, which suddenly came alive and 'shot' us of their own volition.

This is the equivalent of what the Mass Relays/Citadel did in the hands of the Reapers. You have yet to show why we have sufficient reason to believe organics would adapt when they clearly did not do so the first time around. Sovereign stated that our unpredictability was our greatest weapon. I want to see organics take what Reaper technology we do have: the gun, the relays, the Citadel, and adapt them. Alter them in ways which the Reapers would not expect.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 mai 2010 - 01:20 .

[Solomen]

Il Divo wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The problem you are intentionally stepping around is how do you protect against something without knowledge of how it works.  If you know how a bullet works then you can design a vest to stop it

This is an invalid comparison because this is exactly what I mean by 'adaptation'. If this is what we are doing, I would actualy agree with you. A more accurate example would be if we used the bullet design to make our own, which suddenly came alive and 'shot' us of their own volition.

This is the equivalent of what the Mass Relays/Citadel did in the hands of the Reapers. You have yet to show why we have sufficient reason to believe organics would adapt when they clearly did not do so the first time around. Sovereign stated that our unpredictability was our greatest weapon.

Okay... its like using borg tech to build a weapon against the borg

[Il Divo]

Solomen wrote...
Okay... its like using borg tech to build a weapon against the borg

I do not understand.