164 réponses à ce sujet

[Solomen]

Il Divo wrote...

Solomen wrote...
Okay... its like using borg tech to build a weapon against the borg

I do not understand.

Borg indoctrinate organics through the use of nanites in Star Trek.  The federation studied Borg tech to develop ways to fight it, using their own nanites against them, modulating weapons to overcome Borg adaptive shields and even corrupting their base operating system with a trojan borg.  None of that would have been possible if they hadn't studied the borg technology. 

[Il Divo]

Solomen wrote...

Borg indoctrinate organics through the use of nanites in Star Trek.  The federation studied Borg tech to develop ways to fight it, using their own nanites against them, modulating weapons to overcome Borg adaptive shields and even corrupting their base operating system with a trojan borg.  None of that would have been possible if they hadn't studied the borg technology. 

Ah, I understand now. But that's where I believe we differ; you feel that organics will adapt. I personally do not. If they were to adapt, I would agree but here's how I feel it would play out:

"We take the Collector Base. We copy their ship turrets. Then we copy their shields. Then their armor. Then their AI. Then their engines. Then their building structure. And whatever else is left. But we never change it. We do nothing to make it truly 'ours'". 

I don't believe we will go beyond this. We will simply study that Collector Base for all its worth, much like we've done with everything else. By the time we reach a position to fully adapt, it will be too late.
 

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 mai 2010 - 01:35 .

[Solomen]

Il Divo wrote...

Solomen wrote...

Borg indoctrinate organics through the use of nanites in Star Trek.  The federation studied Borg tech to develop ways to fight it, using their own nanites against them, modulating weapons to overcome Borg adaptive shields and even corrupting their base operating system with a trojan borg.  None of that would have been possible if they hadn't studied the borg technology. 

Ah, I understand now. But that's where I believe we differ; you feel that organics will adapt. I personally do not. If they were to adapt, I would agree but here's how I feel it would play out:

"We take the Collector Base. We copy their ship turrets. Then we copy their shields. Then their armor. Then their AI. Then their engines. Then their building structure. And whatever else is left. But we never change it. We do nothing to make it truly 'ours'". 

I don't believe we will go beyond this. We will simply study that Collector Base for all its worth, much like we've done with everything else. By the time we reach a position to fully adapt, it will be too late.
 

If somebody can see a way to improve a weapon or armor it will be improved.  There is no guarantee that humans will adapt the technology in ways the reapers can predict.  Humans tend to mix and match whatever works, like the Normandy.  EDI is based on reaper tech.  So is the thannix cannon.  For all you know Mordin could cobble a weapon together using data from the collector and geth base along with  various other bits and pieces.  When you mix other tech into reaper tech it ceases to be pure reaper tech

[Il Divo]

Solomen wrote...

If somebody can see a way to improve a weapon or armor it will be improved.  There is no guarantee that humans will adapt the technology in ways the reapers can predict.  Humans tend to mix and match whatever works, like the Normandy.  EDI is based on reaper tech.  So is the thannix cannon.  For all you know Mordin could cobble a weapon together using data from the collector and geth base along with  various other bits and pieces.  When you mix other tech into reaper tech it ceases to be pure reaper tech

And someone might have made this exact same point regarding how organics might avoid evolution along certain pre-designed roads. Each of these organic races could have adapted technology in a way which the Reapers did not predict. However each time they did not successfully do this. They simply copied their technology and were eliminated as a result.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 mai 2010 - 01:50 .

[Solomen]

Il Divo wrote...

Solomen wrote...

If somebody can see a way to improve a weapon or armor it will be improved.  There is no guarantee that humans will adapt the technology in ways the reapers can predict.  Humans tend to mix and match whatever works, like the Normandy.  EDI is based on reaper tech.  So is the thannix cannon.  For all you know Mordin could cobble a weapon together using data from the collector and geth base along with  various other bits and pieces.  When you mix other tech into reaper tech it ceases to be pure reaper tech

And someone might have made this exact same point regarding how organics might avoid evolution along certain pre-designed roads. Each of these organic races could have adapted technology in a way which the Reapers did not predict. However each time they did not successfully do this. They simply copied their technology and were eliminated as a result.

The protheans copied their tech and managed to surprise the reapers but it was too little too late to help them.  They didn't know about the reapers in enough time to prepare.  If they had the same warning Shepard has they may have survived.

[Pacifien]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

There always are several approaches to a technological problem.

No, there are not always different solutions to technological problems. Sometimees even when there are those solutions are inferior. Not all solutions are equal. If you use element-zero for anything you'll be following along the path of the Reapers. There simply aren't efficient alternatives.

They don't know if there are any efficient alternatives because once they had the element zero technology, the impetus to research other technological paths became the more arduous path.

The technology we use today isn't necessarily the most efficient or the most innovative technology available. One technology succeeds over another because it is cheaper to produce. A company may have the economic and political clout to bludgeon through its own technology over another. Efficient technologies can be discarded because people view the switch from an entrenched system would be too difficult. Research into advanced technology can be hindered or ignored because the development process is flawed or unrewarding.

Think of the x86 CPU versus reduced instruction set computing. Front wheel versus rear wheel drive. Truck and bus transit versus rail. VHS versus Betamax. Wood-based paper versus hemp-based paper. Single-use capsules versus reusable spacecraft. One could argue that the latter in each example is of superior technology that has been cast aside for a lesser.

The diversity of species in the short and long term can be applied to technology as well. One technology can be well adapted for the environment in the short term, overwhelming and diminishing any diversity in the system, but once the conditions change, that short term advantage becomes a huge disability. Diversity keeps options open and malleable. Which would have come in handy for the species in Mass Effect when it was discovered all their technology was based on a race of beings intent on their destruction.

[NoUserNameHere]

I thought the moral was "don't give the worlds only trump card to xenophobic megalomaniacs."

[Pacifien]

Solomen wrote...
The protheans copied their tech and managed to surprise the reapers but it was too little too late to help them.  They didn't know about the reapers in enough time to prepare.  If they had the same warning Shepard has they may have survived.

The Asari would have done well to listen to Matriarch Aethyta's wise counsel and built their own mass relays. Silly, complacent Asari...

[Il Divo]

Solomen wrote...

The protheans copied their tech and managed to surprise the reapers but it was too little too late to help them.  They didn't know about the reapers in enough time to prepare.  If they had the same warning Shepard has they may have survived.

Aye, and the Reapers' success is ultimately going to be based on our ability to adapt. How did the Protheans surprise the Reapers? They eventually adapted their technology, which required a great amount of time. They were not copying/adapting simultaneously for the most part. It was after the Reaper invasion that they altered the signal. By relying on the Collector base, we remove the likelihood of our own alternate advancements. We merely copy what the Reapers have had, who have also had a millenia to fully understand this technology.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 mai 2010 - 02:15 .

[Solomen]

Il Divo wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The protheans copied their tech and managed to surprise the reapers but it was too little too late to help them.  They didn't know about the reapers in enough time to prepare.  If they had the same warning Shepard has they may have survived.

Aye, and the Reapers' success is ultimately going to be based on our ability to adapt. How did the Protheans surprise the Reapers? They eventually adapted their technology, which required a great amount of time. They were not copying/adapting simultaneously for the most part. It was after the Reaper invasion that they altered the signal. By relying on the Collector base, we remove the likelihood of our own alternate advancements. We merely copy what the Reapers have had, who have also had a millenia to fully understand this technology.

They built the relay and managed to hide it from the reapers for centuries before sneaking in the backdoor and reprogramming the keepers.

[Il Divo]

Solomen wrote...

They built the relay and managed to hide it from the reapers for centuries before sneaking in the backdoor and reprogramming the keepers.

Perhaps I have the situation backwards. I was under the impression that the Protheans built the conduit after the Reapers had gone back into hibernation? If so, 'hiding' the relay becomes no great success.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Il Divo wrote...
 You have yet to show why we have sufficient reason to believe organics would adapt when they clearly did not do so the first time around.

Hmm if reapers existed for 37 million years, and did it every 50,000, they would have 740+2-3 (orginal) reapers... Not an very large force numbers wise. O_o


740ish reapers... hmmm wow, we might actually have an chance against the reapers. >.>

Solomen wrote...


If somebody can see a way to improve a
weapon or armor it will be improved.  There is no guarantee that humans
will adapt the technology in ways the reapers can predict.  Humans tend
to mix and match whatever works, like the Normandy.  EDI is based on
reaper tech.  So is the thannix cannon.  For all you know Mordin could
cobble a weapon together using data from the collector and geth base
along with  various other bits and pieces.  When you mix other tech into
reaper tech it ceases to be pure reaper tech ../../../images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png

Actually, no they won't. Because the reapers technology is apparently superior to our own. Why improve something that is already better then your tech already? Nobody will make that jump until they try it out against reapers and sudden, that brand new reverse engineered shielding doesn't seem quite up to snuff.

The Thanix cannon is an laptop verison of an full size computer case reaper cannon. Tossing aside the fact that I think having the collector base will rough up things politically, especally in TIM's hands... I doubt that we will truely adapt it as our own either. We simply copy it. make an laptop verison of it, plastered some alliance/Cebersus logos on it and mount it on the normandy. Our "advancements" is making it smaller and using less power.

[Il Divo]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
 You have yet to show why we have sufficient reason to believe organics would adapt when they clearly did not do so the first time around.

Hmm if reapers existed for 37 million years, and did it every 50,000, they would have 740+2-3 (orginal) reapers... Not an very large force numbers wise. O_o


740ish reapers... hmmm wow, we might actually have an chance against the reapers. >.>

So this also tells us that organics have been evolving in the exact same manner for the last 740 times without fail barring 1 (Protheans).

[Solomen]

Il Divo wrote...

Solomen wrote...

They built the relay and managed to hide it from the reapers for centuries before sneaking in the backdoor and reprogramming the keepers.

Perhaps I have the situation backwards. I was under the impression that the Protheans built the conduit after the Reapers had gone back into hibernation? If so, 'hiding' the relay becomes no great success.

They built the new conduit on Ilos BEFORE the attack.  It wasn't on the list of relays and the protheans were keeping it secret before the attack.  There was only 12 protheans left after the harvest was complete.  Not enough to build a conduit. 

[Solomen]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
 You have yet to show why we have sufficient reason to believe organics would adapt when they clearly did not do so the first time around.

Hmm if reapers existed for 37 million years, and did it every 50,000, they would have 740+2-3 (orginal) reapers... Not an very large force numbers wise. O_o


740ish reapers... hmmm wow, we might actually have an chance against the reapers. >.>

Solomen wrote...


If somebody can see a way to improve a
weapon or armor it will be improved.  There is no guarantee that humans
will adapt the technology in ways the reapers can predict.  Humans tend
to mix and match whatever works, like the Normandy.  EDI is based on
reaper tech.  So is the thannix cannon.  For all you know Mordin could
cobble a weapon together using data from the collector and geth base
along with  various other bits and pieces.  When you mix other tech into
reaper tech it ceases to be pure reaper tech ../../../images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png

Actually, no they won't. Because the reapers technology is apparently superior to our own. Why improve something that is already better then your tech already? Nobody will make that jump until they try it out against reapers and sudden, that brand new reverse engineered shielding doesn't seem quite up to snuff.

The Thanix cannon is an laptop verison of an full size computer case reaper cannon. Tossing aside the fact that I think having the collector base will rough up things politically, especally in TIM's hands... I doubt that we will truely adapt it as our own either. We simply copy it. make an laptop verison of it, plastered some alliance/Cebersus logos on it and mount it on the normandy. Our "advancements" is making it smaller and using less power.

Hundreds of smaller and more maneuverable yet powerful weapons is an improvement over dozens of massive unwieldly weapons

[Il Divo]

Solomen wrote...

They built the new conduit on Ilos BEFORE the attack.  It wasn't on the list of relays and the protheans were keeping it secret before the attack.  There was only 12 protheans left after the harvest was complete.  Not enough to build a conduit. 

Ah, I see. So we have a demonstration of adaptation. I suppose this is why the Reapers claimed the Protheans had evolved beyond what they intended. But this still came after an extended period of replication. That's ultimately the point here. It's not that with Reaper technology we would never adapt, but by the time we were forced to it would be too late. It forces stagnation. This is still one example of evolution, versus 739 prior examples of absolute extinction.

Why continue down this path of replication? If we obtain the Collector Base, we will focus on replication. Without it, we are forced to adaptation much like the Protheans. Perhaps we could produce our own relays in turn.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 mai 2010 - 02:42 .

[Solomen]

Il Divo wrote...

Solomen wrote...

They built the new conduit on Ilos BEFORE the attack.  It wasn't on the list of relays and the protheans were keeping it secret before the attack.  There was only 12 protheans left after the harvest was complete.  Not enough to build a conduit. 

Ah, I see. So we have a demonstration of adaptation. I suppose this is why the Reapers claimed the Protheans had evolved beyond what they intended. But this still came after an extended period of replication. That's ultimately the point here. It's not that with Reaper technology we would never adapt, but by the time we were forced to it would be too late. It forces stagnation. This is still one example of evolution, versus 739 prior examples of absolute extinction.

The difference is we are using the base to figure out how to break reaper tech, not just use it  Sending a projectile full of reprogrammed reaper nanites could wreak massive damage on a reaper's hull.  Since they are so old and set in their ways it would be difficult to adapt to us corrupting their tech.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Solomen wrote...

Hundreds of smaller and more maneuverable yet powerful weapons is an improvement over dozens of massive unwieldly weapons

Maybe, but to be honest, I think their larger computer sized ones are going to do alot more damage and be able to go further and longer.

[Il Divo]

Solomen wrote...
The difference is we are using the base to figure out how to break reaper tech, not just use it  Sending a projectile full of reprogrammed reaper nanites could wreak massive damage on a reaper's hull.  Since they are so old and set in their ways it would be difficult to adapt to us corrupting their tech.

At this point, we may just have to agree to disagree. This is ultimately the question: will organics adapt or replicate? I say one, you say the other. Not much farther we can take this I suppose.

[Solomen]

Il Divo wrote...

Solomen wrote...
The difference is we are using the base to figure out how to break reaper tech, not just use it  Sending a projectile full of reprogrammed reaper nanites could wreak massive damage on a reaper's hull.  Since they are so old and set in their ways it would be difficult to adapt to us corrupting their tech.

At this point, we may just have to agree to disagree. This is ultimately the question: will organics adapt or replicate? I say one, you say the other. Not much farther we can take this I suppose.

You also forgot about Geth  it isn't just organics in this fight.

[Il Divo]

Solomen wrote...
You also forgot about Geth  it isn't just organics in this fight.

Well, fair enough! Either way, it's been an enjoyable discussion.

[Frekken]

I don't think the problem is using tech from other cultures. The problem is using without understanding.



For instance, the citadel. In the game no one really understands how it works, what its for, etc. And that fact nearly wrecked civilization.



Second example the mass relays. Because we don't really understand them, we can't really control them. We're content to use them because they work, but once the reapers come, I'm sure they'll quit working for us, and then where will we be?



As far as the collector base goes, i think there are plenty of arguments for keeping/destroying it, but destruction because of some moral feeling about studying others' technology is pretty weak. I think the argument that TIM can't be trusted and the threat of indoctrination are far more convincing.

[A.N.A.N]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
 You have yet to show why we have sufficient reason to believe organics would adapt when they clearly did not do so the first time around.

Hmm if reapers existed for 37 million years, and did it every 50,000, they would have 740+2-3 (orginal) reapers... Not an very large force numbers wise. O_o


740ish reapers... hmmm wow, we might actually have an chance against the reapers. >.>

Actually, it's at least 37 million years.And who says that they make one Reaper every cycle. There's no way of knowing how many years the Reapers have been active, or how many Reapers have been built.

[Solomen]

Frekken wrote...

I don't think the problem is using tech from other cultures. The problem is using without understanding.

For instance, the citadel. In the game no one really understands how it works, what its for, etc. And that fact nearly wrecked civilization.

Second example the mass relays. Because we don't really understand them, we can't really control them. We're content to use them because they work, but once the reapers come, I'm sure they'll quit working for us, and then where will we be?

As far as the collector base goes, i think there are plenty of arguments for keeping/destroying it, but destruction because of some moral feeling about studying others' technology is pretty weak. I think the argument that TIM can't be trusted and the threat of indoctrination are far more convincing.

Personally I'd use telerobotic drones to explore the collector base and catalogue the tech while keeping the operators under observation.  This keeps researchers from being directy exposed to indoctrination technology. 

[ScooterPie88]