164 réponses à ce sujet

[DuffyMJ]

Or it could just be a game and you're wasting way too much thought trying to insist you're right and everyone else is wrong about destroying the collector base



"Ignore" my frank dose of reality...

[Wildecker]

Shandepared wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

That we might copy everything we find in the Collector base without making it ours?

Yes, I find that question suspect because it is rather baseless. Secondly it also ignores the simple fact that the Collector base contains the blue-prints for building Reapers, something they never-ever wanted us to see. In getting the chance to study it we can understand how Reaper's work, giving us new insight into ways to destroy them. For what reason would we simply copy the technology without attempting to understand it?

You are assuming that Reapers are built like ships, not grown like ... well ... creatures.
When Shepard enters the cavern of the Human-Reaper larva, there are no stacks of material nor anything else you find on a shipyard. Just hundreds of tubes that go into four large injectors. And EDI tells you that the missing colonists were transformed into this. 
When you clip off an elephant's testicles you have, in a way, half a blueprint for elephants. But you won't be able to grow a new elephant from them, right?

So what you get are not blueprints that explain how you weld Part A to Part B and insert them into Part C. You get a recipe that starts with "Grind up n organics and grow them into this." Your only chance to do some decent retroengineering appears to be processing a couple of millions of human beings and hope the resulting HumanReaper won't come to its senses before you can start dismantling it again.

Shandepared wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Why does it change nothing?

...because we've gained an advantage regardless. What are the Reapers going to do, radically re-build themselves based on totally different technological concepts before they invade? This is like you having a weak hand in poker and you know the other guy knows it... well that's great, that doesn't do anything to make your hand stronger.  

The Collector base is not a path of development the organics were ever intended to pursue on their own. It is outside the scope of their trap.

That line of thought still ignores the Reaper way to do things. Judging from all we saw inside the Collector base and cruiser they take organic beings, infuse them with technology (Husks) and fuse them together (Scions and Praetorians), and if they don't like the result it gets gene-engineered into something more useful (like the Protheans that were turned into Collectors). Living organic beings are the building blocks for about anything they want.
And so all we can learn on the base is how to turn living organic beings into Husks, Scions, Praetorians and even Reapers, yes. And to reverse-engineer the results into something we understand, we will have to sacrifice millions and more.

THAT is your "tough decision", and it makes Auschwitz look like a minor inconvenience.

Yeah, I guess the Illusive Man will draw the conclusion that while it hurts it's necessary to do it, and so you have conquered the galaxy's biggest meat grinder and ensured it goes on grinding humans, just under a new management.

Modifié par Wildecker, 03 mai 2010 - 01:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Il Divo wrote...

Solomen wrote...

They built the new conduit on Ilos BEFORE the attack.  It wasn't on the list of relays and the protheans were keeping it secret before the attack.  There was only 12 protheans left after the harvest was complete.  Not enough to build a conduit. 

Ah, I see. So we have a demonstration of adaptation. I suppose this is why the Reapers claimed the Protheans had evolved beyond what they intended. But this still came after an extended period of replication. That's ultimately the point here. It's not that with Reaper technology we would never adapt, but by the time we were forced to it would be too late. It forces stagnation. This is still one example of evolution, versus 739 prior examples of absolute extinction.

The important point is not that other civilizations developed along Reaper development lines, it's that they were stopped at a specific point before they could develop further. Their type of technology never mattered. What mattered was that they were evaluated and then hit before they could develop something passed a certain point. Strangling children in their pre-teens to prevent them from maturing fully does not mean that they would be impotent once matured.

The difference in our study is that the 739 times prior, the Reapers were able to
stop other civilizations before they could become more advanced. Whenever they have not, they have been thwarted in part or fully. This is an argument for advancement past their arbitrary limit, not a refusal to move past it.

Why continue down this path of replication? If we obtain the Collector
Base, we will focus on replication. Without it, we are forced to
adaptation much like the Protheans. Perhaps we could produce our own
relays in turn.

...building a relay would be replication. Nothing else but. And you would be much better placed to be able to build another Relay by grabbing the Reaper technology.

[Dean_the_Young]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Or it could just be a game and you're wasting way too much thought trying to insist you're right and everyone else is wrong about destroying the collector base

"Ignore" my frank dose of reality...

Ah, a paradox. Is this man posting something he thinks is right, and hypocritically ignorring his own suggestion in trying to convince others? Or, to adhere to his own advice, is he lying, and therefore flippantly irrelevant?

[Dean_the_Young]

Wilddecker wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

That we might copy everything we find in the Collector base without making it ours?

Yes, I find that question suspect because it is rather baseless. Secondly it also ignores the simple fact that the Collector base contains the blue-prints for building Reapers, something they never-ever wanted us to see. In getting the chance to study it we can understand how Reaper's work, giving us new insight into ways to destroy them. For what reason would we simply copy the technology without attempting to understand it?

You are assuming that Reapers are built like ships, not grown like ... well ... creatures.
When Shepard enters the cavern of the Human-Reaper larva, there are no stacks of material nor anything else you find on a shipyard. Just hundreds of tubes that go into four large injectors. And EDI tells you that the missing colonists were transformed into this. 
When you clip off an elephant's testicles you have, in a way, half a blueprint for elephants. But you won't be able to grow a new elephant from them, right?

If you were advanced enough in genetic engineering, yes. You could. Moreover, you aren't cutting off the elephant's balls: you're capturing (alive) fertile adult elephants to do with as you please.

That said, yes, the Reapers are built. They are machines, and they are ships, complete with chambers, replicable machine technology, and a notable lack of biological functions.

That line of thought still ignores the Reaper way to do things. Judging from all we saw inside the Collector base and cruiser they take organic beings, infuse them with technology (Husks) and fuse them together (Scions and Praetorians), and if they don't like the result it gets gene-engineered into something more useful (like the Protheans that were turned into Collectors). Living organic beings are the building blocks for about anything they want.
And so all we can learn on the base is how to turn living organic beings into Husks, Scions, Praetorians and even Reapers, yes. And to reverse-engineer the results into something we understand, we will have to sacrifice millions and more.

THAT is your "tough decision", and it makes Auschwitz look like a minor inconvenience.

Yeah, I guess the Illusive Man will draw the conclusion that while it hurts it's necessary to do it, and so you have conquered the galaxy's biggest meat grinder and ensured it goes on grinding humans, just under a new management.

...you know, if you steadfastly refuse what the game tells you and actively, there's no amount of logic that will change your convinction to wishful thinking.

The game tells you that the base houses advanced technologies, and you see them throughout the game: Collector genetics, AI/computer warfare, highly advanced weapon technologies, the knowledge of Reaper technology. None of this is assumed: it's shown and told. You are told that it's a generational advance in technology. Moreover, you are repeatedly shown by example that Reaper technology does not require liquification or genocide to recreate.

[Kenrae]

The options should have been: let Cerberus have the tech or give it to the Council Space races. Then we wouldn't have this discussión .

And we'd have the option to choose the most logical answer at the same time.

[atheelogos]

"If the moral of ME2 is that every race should
develop its own technology and means" Who the hell told you that was the moral of ME2?

[Wildecker]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That said, yes, the Reapers are built. They are machines, and they are ships, complete with chambers, replicable machine technology, and a notable lack of biological functions.

Take a look at this:
Compare it to the Human Reaper womb.

You may notice some slight differences. Like the absence of large metal parts anywhere but on the Reaper frame. Or construction tools beyond fluffy glowing globes in metal baskets.

Dean_the_Young wrote......
you know, if you steadfastly refuse what the game tells you and actively, there's no amount of logic that will change your convinction to wishful thinking.

The game tells you that the base houses advanced technologies, and you see them throughout the game: Collector genetics, AI/computer warfare, highly advanced weapon technologies, the knowledge of Reaper technology. None of this is assumed: it's shown and told. You are told that it's a generational advance in technology. Moreover, you are repeatedly shown by example that Reaper technology does not require liquification or genocide to recreate.

Where exactly am I shown that? Some parts of Sovereign that were scrapped off the Citadel so that EDI could be built around them? The Thanix gun, where some inventive Turians looked at wreckage, went through data and said: "So that is what this juggernaut used for a gun?"
Just that you never looked into their eyes doesn't mean no organic lifeforms were worked into it. It just happened  a really long time ago. And of cause we've all been given the Grand Tour of Sovereign's insides, right?
Where will you get your next Reaper to break down and reverse-engineer? The Collector base builds them from liquified human beings. Maybe you can shove a billion rabbits into the grinders and cross your fingers?
And, pray tell, what do you think Scions and Praetorians are made from? Pieces of wire, bubble gum and tissue paper?

The base may house the products of advanced technology. But this technology needs flesh and bones to work. No denying that.

Modifié par Wildecker, 03 mai 2010 - 05:08 .

[Il Divo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

 The important point is not that other civilizations developed along Reaper development lines, it's that they were stopped at a specific point before they could develop further. Their type of technology never mattered. What mattered was that they were evaluated and then hit before they could develop something passed a certain point. Strangling children in their pre-teens to prevent them from maturing fully does not mean that they would be impotent once matured.

Regardless, that is still the important point. Civilizations developed along one set path because they had access to this technology; their technology was no different from those who had come before them. This is why it's an issue of adaptation versus replication. When galactic civilization rose up, it relied on this technology with no understanding of what it truly was or where it came from. It is irrelevant that we are aware of the Reaper threat.
If we merely replicate more Reaper technology, we are committing the exact same error. Even if we become more advanced technologically, they still know exactly how we chose to evolve.

Through adaptation, we can instead hope to alter existing technology in ways which the Reapers did not intend or anticipate. The relays were clearly the farthest they'd gone in 'teleportation' otherwise they would have not be traveling through dark space to reach us.

The difference in our study is that the 739 times prior, the Reapers were able to
stop other civilizations before they could become more advanced. Whenever they have not, they have been thwarted in part or fully. This is an argument for advancement past their arbitrary limit, not a refusal to move past it.

We did not move past the arbitrary limit the first 739 times. What makes you so certain that we will do so this time? Knowing that the Reapers are coming in my opinion would instead cause a greater urgency to merely copy the Collector Base without due consideration.

building a relay would be replication. Nothing else but. And you would be much better placed to be able to build another Relay by grabbing the Reaper technology.

Earlier I made the point that we should stick to what we have already acquired: the relays, the Citadel, the Thanix Cannon, etc. These things have already been integrated into our lives. To give them up would reduce us to absolute destruction. However replicating a relay is not similar to replicating whatever we may find inside the Collector Base which we have no knowledge of. We are in a far better position to adapt what we have been using since the beginning than to adapt technology we have never seen. That is how it seems to work in Mass Effect. Adaptation follows replication. The Reapers destroy civilizations before they are able to reach the point of adaptation.

Modifié par Il Divo, 03 mai 2010 - 05:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Il Divo wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

 The important point is not that other civilizations developed along Reaper development lines, it's that they were stopped at a specific point before they could develop further. Their type of technology never mattered. What mattered was that they were evaluated and then hit before they could develop something passed a certain point. Strangling children in their pre-teens to prevent them from maturing fully does not mean that they would be impotent once matured. [/quote]

Regardless, that is still the important point. Civilizations developed along one set path because they had access to this technology; their technology was no different from those who had come before them. This is why it's an issue of adaptation versus replication. When galactic civilization rose up, it relied on this technology with no understanding of what it truly was or where it came from. It is irrelevant that we are aware of the Reaper threat.
If we merely replicate more Reaper technology, we are committing the exact same error. Even if we become more advanced technologically, they still know exactly how we chose to evolve. [/quote]First, yes, the technology was different. The Protheans had beacons, which no other civilization now has. Someone else built the Leviathan of Dis. A third person built the giant mass accellerator. We built the Normandy and fighter carriers, unique among all the other races in the current galaxy. The Asari mindmeld. There has never been mere copy-paste technological development: it's always been steadily redeveloped in different ways.

Second, Reaper technology is not the error. Reaper technology did not doom any species. The Citadel signal doomed all the species, and using the Citadel was the error. What technology that used in the context of that was irrelevant, as the variety in previous galactic history shows. Using Reaper technology is not falling into the Reaper trap: using the Citadel is.

Third, who gives a damn about what the Reapers think? Care about your own judgements. Automatically cringing from anything related to the name doesn't make you an independent-thinking species: you're giving the Reapers more control over your actions, not less, if the mere thought of them will make you take one route over another. All this cringing and whimpering calls to mind  someone who, to spite a bully, refuses to do anything they once enjoyed. That's not independence and that's not free will.


[quote]Through adaptation, we can instead hope to alter existing technology in ways which the Reapers did not intend or anticipate. The relays were clearly the farthest they'd gone in 'teleportation' otherwise they would have not be traveling through dark space to reach us. [/quote]How on earth do you intend to adapt anything if you do not study it? The Reaper technology in the Collector Base is your source material to study. and understand that technology
[quote]
[quote]
The difference in our study is that the 739 times prior, the Reapers were able to
stop other civilizations before they could become more advanced. Whenever they have not, they have been thwarted in part or fully. This is an argument for advancement past their arbitrary limit, not a refusal to move past it.
[/quote]

We did not move past the arbitrary limit the first 739 times. What makes you so certain that we will do so this time? Knowing that the Reapers are coming in my opinion would instead cause a greater urgency to merely copy the Collector Base without due consideration. [/quote]Well, that's a stupid question with an answer given years ago. We passed that limit when the Protheans opened a break in the cycle and stopped the Keepers from recognizing the signal.

We had hundreds, possibly a thousand years of  extra development when Sovereign was moving (such as when he instigated the Rachni Wars), and since then not only has a Reaper been defeated and the trap broken but we gained the opportunity to understand the root of raw Reaper technology itself, advances the Reapers and Collectors never intended or even allowed. We went past their trap and defeated them despite their best efforts.
[quote]
[quote]
building a relay would be replication. Nothing else but. And you would be much better placed to be able to build another Relay by grabbing the Reaper technology.
[/quote]

Earlier I made the point that we should stick to what we have already acquired: the relays, the Citadel, the Thanix Cannon, etc. These things have already been integrated into our lives. To give them up would reduce us to absolute destruction. However replicating a relay is not similar to replicating whatever we may find inside the Collector Base which we have no knowledge of. We are in a far better position to adapt what we have been using since the beginning than to adapt technology we have never seen. That is how it seems to work in Mass Effect. Adaptation follows replication. The Reapers destroy civilizations before they are able to reach the point of adaptation.
[/quote][/quote]The Citadel, which is the entire Reaper trap, was not integrated until people took the Reaper's gift. The Mass Relays were not integrated until people took the Reaper's gifts. All things mass effect and e-zero, biotics, Normandy, etc., were not integrated until people took the Reaper's technology.

You are not making an argument against Reaper technology. You are making a case for it, on the basis that all of it in the past is now invaluable and should not be given up. Pattern recognition would lead anyone following your history of Reaper technology that future integration of Reaper technology will be invaluable to the galaxy as well.

Heck, the last two were deliberate traps, and you'll hold them close to your heart. The Thannix cannon was not integrated until you replicated actual Reaper parts, and you'll rely on it. And yet, despite being perfectly fine with taking and keeping everything behind you, most of which was the Reaper trap, you refuse to look forward at the one technological cache which was never intended or planned by the Reapers to be a trap and would actually boost understanding (your adapted technologies... which are no stronger or reliable than if the same facts were copied).

And in doing so, by the way, increase the risk of absolute destruction.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

The base may house the products of advanced technology. But this technology needs flesh and bones to work. No denying that.

If that were true then the turians are melting people down to power their thannix cannon.

And EDI. Don't forget EDI.

Also, I'm strangely skeptical of claims that indoctrination devices have to be made out of reaper goo as well. As well as the Mass Relays, the Citadel, e-zero drivee, mass accellerator cannons, and all other derivatives and emulations of Reaper technology.

[KalosCast]

Shandepared wrote...

Wildecker wrote...

The base may house the products of advanced technology. But this technology needs flesh and bones to work. No denying that.

If that were true then the turians are melting people down to power their thannix cannon.

ME3 better give us the option to play "PTSDShep" who, when encountered with synthetic lifeforms, has to engage in a mini-game to prevent from referencing Soylent Green. Just because I wanna see Shep running down corridors in the citadel, holding up the endgame datapad and screaming "They're made of peeeeeeople! The Reapers, the Citadel, it's all people!"

Modifié par KalosCast, 03 mai 2010 - 06:42 .

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

A.N.A.N wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
 You have yet to show why we have sufficient reason to believe organics would adapt when they clearly did not do so the first time around.

Hmm if reapers existed for 37 million years, and did it every 50,000, they would have 740+2-3 (orginal) reapers... Not an very large force numbers wise. O_o


740ish reapers... hmmm wow, we might actually have an chance against the reapers. >.>

Actually, it's at least 37 million years.And who says that they make one Reaper every cycle. There's no way of knowing how many years the Reapers have been active, or how many Reapers have been built.

I made two assumptions, the reapers started 37 million years ago, and they made one nearly every single time, putting the number roughly 740. The time started and  one was made every 50,000 assumptions. either way, 740 reapers is not an great number when you consider how big an galaxy is. But the problem is the fact that the reapers can easily hide in the galaxy just like we can.