112 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyDamodred]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
@ LD
Sure, might have used the wrong words. Still, seeing how everyone has a job to do, risking complete failure and death before achieving it is against everyone 's better judgement, unless people believe ideals are more important than the lives entrusted to them. 

It's a risk either way.  I think your two options are fairly even.  And your character is pretty goddamn awesome, so I don't see either choice as risking complete failure and death.  So that allows people to follow what they feel is the best choice.

Metagaming.

It's obviously more risky to count on a spirit that tells you that it doesn't know how to cross the veil, anger and fight the only person who can, and then expect her to comply. Compared to negotiating and making a deal with the only person who can cross the veil.

And I could just as easily say that it's more risky to trust the Baroness, since she has given you absolutely no reason to trust her.  None.  What's to say she won't simply kill you when she says she's going to send you back?  You cannot know.  So you can either go with someone who might be able to send you back, but is evil and has no reason to actually help you, or someone who might not know how to send you back, but would do his damnedest to get you home.  It's a risk, either way, and I see it as a fairly equal risk when you look at what the character sees and knows at that moment.  Going by that, my characters take their chances with Justice.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LadyDamodred wrote...
And I could just as easily say that it's more risky to trust the Baroness, since she has given you absolutely no reason to trust her.  None.  What's to say she won't simply kill you when she says she's going to send you back?  You cannot know.  So you can either go with someone who might be able to send you back, but is evil and has no reason to actually help you, or someone who might not know how to send you back, but would do his damnedest to get you home.  It's a risk, either way, and I see it as a fairly equal risk when you look at what the character sees and knows at that moment.  Going by that, my characters take their chances with Justice.

No one denied it was a risk.

But the Baroness has no real reason to turn on you, nor is it in her interest to allow you to stay in her realm. So the least one can do, is at least negotiate with her. Seeing how she needs my PC to get her dirty work done, she would be more willing to cooperate. 
We have no real reason to trust her, but she has no real reason to cross us. And it turns out to be true. A risk, but not an unfounded risk.

Justice on the otherhand tells you outright that he doesn't know. And even if he tries, you have to take into account that he would succeed fast enough, in order for your body not to decay. In addition, spirits never leave the fade anyhow, only demons do. So that is even more reason not to expect Justice to know anything about it.

The Baroness can help. The question is if she would or wouldn't.
Justice can't help. Or not help fast enough. I am more willing to bet on the "would", rather than on capacity.  

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


But the Baroness has no real reason to turn on you

If I was her I had one: Killing or enslaving the Warden allows her to increase her power even more, maybe even enough to enslave other realms of the fade....

[Willowhugger]

The short version is that if I sided with the Baroness, I'd be condemning the souls of people to torture for all eternity.



That's unacceptable. Period.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


But the Baroness has no real reason to turn on you

If I was her I had one: Killing or enslaving the Warden allows her to increase her power even more, maybe even enough to enslave other realms of the fade....

She couldn't enslave her own people (they rebel), let alone enslave the Warden. And killing him / her offers no power.
Furthermore, she needs the Warden to deal with the insurrection. Or would rather have him deal with it. 

Perhaps afterwards she could have betrayed us? Definately a possibility.
Not much incentives to do so however, as the Warden and his companions would gave proven their strength. And she doesn't have much to gain. It's in her interest to have the Warden go out of her realm, lest he / she be even more trouble. And attempting to kill him would be idiotic and she would be resisted. 

So while the risk is there, seeing how she is the only person who can get us out of the fade, I say the benefits outweight the risk. 
 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Willowhugger wrote...

The short version is that if I sided with the Baroness, I'd be condemning the souls of people to torture for all eternity.

That's unacceptable. Period.

And if you fail to return back to the real world (and you have no real reason to think Justice will be able to help), all of Amaranthine would burn. That's acceptable?

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

The short version is that if I sided with the Baroness, I'd be condemning the souls of people to torture for all eternity.

That's unacceptable. Period.

And if you fail to return back to the real world (and you have no real reason to think Justice will be able to help), all of Amaranthine would burn. That's acceptable?

You don't know if it would, though. So far as you know, they'd declare you MIA after a certain point and elect a new Arl/essa in your stead.

[Costin_Razvan]

I just wish for bloody once in a video game they would make a moral choice that would mean you fail should you choose the wrong one. Seriously.

[Tellervo]

My AW (who is my "canonical" Warden) sided with Justice.  Being a bit overconfident in his abilities, he had no doubt he could find his own way back, and worried about betrayal from the Baroness.  Justice, at least, seemed the sort to not go back on his word as far as help went.  The Baroness seemed like she was offering betrayal from the start.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


She couldn't enslave her own people (they rebel), let alone enslave the Warden. And killing him / her offers no power.
Furthermore, she needs the Warden to deal with the insurrection. Or would rather have him deal with it. 

Perhaps afterwards she could have betrayed us? Definately a possibility.

Of course afterwards. Never kill someone if you can have him do your dirty work and backstab him afterwards. Makes things so much easier.

So while the risk is there, seeing how she is the only person who can get us out of the fade, I say the benefits outweight the risk. 
 

But Justice can, too. In addition, we have to assume - at least when importing from DAO - that we can go back when we kill the one who created this realm.

[Tirigon]

Oh, and by the way, I have a VERY strong reason against the Baroness: She´s freaking ugly.



Admitted, Justice is, too, but because of his helm you don´t know yet.

[Willowhugger]

And if you fail to return back to the real world (and you have no real reason to think Justice will be able to help), all of Amaranthine would burn. That's acceptable?

The situation in Awakening is not nearly as desperate as that.  Especially since Fereldan is stable. 

However, the simple fact is that you DO have the option of trying to force the Baroness to comply with your wishes.  Given she's an evil psychopathic sorceress, I think it is MUCH MORE reasonable to negotiate from a position of strength (i.e. swordpoint) than try and make a deal with someone who is clearly insane and demonic.

Attempting to use force on a blood mage is honestly MORE logical than negotiating with a psychopath.

Besides, Mages visit the Fade all the time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

But Justice can, too. In addition, we have to assume - at least when importing from DAO - that we can go back when we kill the one who created this realm.

No, Justice tells you outright that he can't.

And the situation is different. In Origins, it wa a demon who sent you there and killing him would free you. here, it's different. It was not a demon who sent you here, so killing won't work.

Valentia X wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

The short version is that if I sided with the Baroness, I'd be condemning the souls of people to torture for all eternity.

That's unacceptable. Period.

And if you fail to return back to the real world (and you have no real reason to think Justice will be able to help), all of Amaranthine would burn. That's acceptable?

You don't know if it would, though. So far as you know, they'd declare you MIA after a certain point and elect a new Arl/essa in your stead.

And would they find someone better than you? Or equal to you?
Chances are Amaranthine would have burned without the Warden.

[Chuvvy]

Sorry what? I can't hear you over my metagaming.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

But Justice can, too. In addition, we have to assume - at least when importing from DAO - that we can go back when we kill the one who created this realm.

No, Justice tells you outright that he can't.

Then Justice is a liar, because he can bring you back. What a noob spirit....... You just made me like him even less^^.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Willowhugger wrote...
However, the simple fact is that you DO have the option of trying to force the Baroness to comply with your wishes.  Given she's an evil psychopathic sorceress, I think it is MUCH MORE reasonable to negotiate from a position of strength (i.e. swordpoint) than try and make a deal with someone who is clearly insane and demonic.

If she is truly insane, then making her angrier is not what I would consider prudent. And assumign that we can win, why would she comply? IF anything, you have given her a reason to hate you, so more reason for her to backstab you.

Justice wants her dead, so why would she want to comply? In exchange for what?
Whereas iuf you side with her, her help comes in exchange for a service. And it is a position of strength, as she needs the Warden.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

But Justice can, too. In addition, we have to assume - at least when importing from DAO - that we can go back when we kill the one who created this realm.

No, Justice tells you outright that he can't.

Then Justice is a liar, because he can bring you back. What a noob spirit....... You just made me like him even less^^.

No, he can't. It's the Baroness that does either way, regardless of choice.

[Sarah1281]

Oh, and by the way, I have a VERY strong reason against the Baroness: She´s freaking ugly.



Admitted, Justice is, too, but because of his helm you don´t know yet.

It's not him, it's Kristoff's decaying body that he's possessing. The demon possessing Connor doesn't actually look like him and yet that's how it appeared most of the time.



And if we're picking shallow reasons for going with Justice...the Baroness sounds like Isolde.

No, he can't. It's the Baroness that does either way, regardless of choice.

If you side with her, why does she attack you when you get back? And can you still recruit Justice?

[Axekix]

Willowhugger wrote...

And if you fail to return back to the real world (and you have no real reason to think Justice will be able to help), all of Amaranthine would burn. That's acceptable?

The situation in Awakening is not nearly as desperate as that.  Especially since Fereldan is stable. 

However, the simple fact is that you DO have the option of trying to force the Baroness to comply with your wishes.  Given she's an evil psychopathic sorceress, I think it is MUCH MORE reasonable to negotiate from a position of strength (i.e. swordpoint) than try and make a deal with someone who is clearly insane and demonic.

Attempting to use force on a blood mage is honestly MORE logical than negotiating with a psychopath.

Besides, Mages visit the Fade all the time.

I tend to agree with this line of thinking.  In my first, and only, playthrough of awakenings I sided with Justice just so I could force her to send me back. 

Trying to strike a deal with someone who has betrayed so many people in the past seems unwise, even if she has no reason to backstab you on the surface.  Playing through DA:O should have made you much more skeptical of people's intents by then

She may or may not comply, but taking her down first puts all the power in your hands when it comes to negotiating.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

No, he can't. It's the Baroness that does either way, regardless of choice.

If you side with her, why does she attack you when you get back? And can you still recruit Justice?

Because the demon wants to rule the mortal world too and wants you as its subject. There was an dialogue option of "But we are still allies, right?". Haven't tried it. I suspect the demon doesn't care anymore.

And yes, you still can recruit Justice.

The situation could have been more dramatic and actually had more consequences. At the end though, it's msotly irrelevent.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mai 2010 - 08:42 .

[Axekix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...
However, the simple fact is that you DO have the option of trying to force the Baroness to comply with your wishes.  Given she's an evil psychopathic sorceress, I think it is MUCH MORE reasonable to negotiate from a position of strength (i.e. swordpoint) than try and make a deal with someone who is clearly insane and demonic.

If she is truly insane, then making her angrier is not what I would consider prudent. And assumign that we can win, why would she comply? IF anything, you have given her a reason to hate you, so more reason for her to backstab you.

Justice wants her dead, so why would she want to comply? In exchange for what?

In exchange for her continued existance?

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

But Justice can, too. In addition, we have to assume - at least when importing from DAO - that we can go back when we kill the one who created this realm.

No, Justice tells you outright that he can't.

And the situation is different. In Origins, it wa a demon who sent you there and killing him would free you. here, it's different. It was not a demon who sent you here, so killing won't work.

Valentia X wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

The short version is that if I sided with the Baroness, I'd be condemning the souls of people to torture for all eternity.

That's unacceptable. Period.

And if you fail to return back to the real world (and you have no real reason to think Justice will be able to help), all of Amaranthine would burn. That's acceptable?

You don't know if it would, though. So far as you know, they'd declare you MIA after a certain point and elect a new Arl/essa in your stead.

And would they find someone better than you? Or equal to you?
Chances are Amaranthine would have burned without the Warden.

I'm not arguing that it won't happen, since we know how the game ends, I'm saying your character might not see it that way. I play my Amell as irrational, stuck on first impressions, and not particularly in love with her own song- or someone who cares all that much about the Wardens outside any she may have in her party.  She doesn't particularly like being Arlessa to begin with, and while she doesn't wish ill on Amaranthine and will do her best to help the citizens, her inability to think ahead (and eternal sense of optimism) dictates that she's going to do what she thinks is right at that moment. Cooler heads would try to negotiate with the Baroness, but not every Warden is like that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Axekix wrote...
In exchange for her continued existance?

Justice wants her dead. He never said anything about being merciful to her or sparing her. At least that's the impression I got from him. And that's assumign that the people won't want to kill her (and something tells me they want to. They already did burn her).

What if you weakened her so that she can't do any of that anymore? What if she decides  to use your life force to kill you anyways, because you made her hate you?
 
I would much rather deal with a unprovoked sorceress, than provoke and anger her. In exchange for a service she requires. Given her a reason to cross you, would be unwise imo.  

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...
I'm not arguing that it won't happen, since we know how the game ends, I'm saying your character might not see it that way. I play my Amell as irrational, stuck on first impressions, and not particularly in love with her own song- or someone who cares all that much about the Wardens outside any she may have in her party.  She doesn't particularly like being Arlessa to begin with, and while she doesn't wish ill on Amaranthine and will do her best to help the citizens, her inability to think ahead (and eternal sense of optimism) dictates that she's going to do what she thinks is right at that moment. Cooler heads would try to negotiate with the Baroness, but not every Warden is like that.

Of course, I am not saying all Wardens are like this.

But you admit that your Warden is mostly irrational and that is good.

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
I'm not arguing that it won't happen, since we know how the game ends, I'm saying your character might not see it that way. I play my Amell as irrational, stuck on first impressions, and not particularly in love with her own song- or someone who cares all that much about the Wardens outside any she may have in her party.  She doesn't particularly like being Arlessa to begin with, and while she doesn't wish ill on Amaranthine and will do her best to help the citizens, her inability to think ahead (and eternal sense of optimism) dictates that she's going to do what she thinks is right at that moment. Cooler heads would try to negotiate with the Baroness, but not every Warden is like that.

Of course, I am not saying all Wardens are like this.

But you admit that your Warden is mostly irrational and that is good.

LOL. Rationality is overrated for some of us.

You might also consider the fact that it's implied she's some sort of blood mage before it's actually revealed. If your character has any sort of hate or fear towards a blood magus, they might not want to negotiate with them either. You know, the whole mind control thing tends to render negotiations sort of moot after a while.