112 réponses à ce sujet

[Axekix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Axekix wrote...
In exchange for her continued existance?

Justice wants her dead. He never said anything about being merciful to her or sparing her. At least that's the impression I got from him. And that's assumign that the people won't want to kill her (and something tells me they want to. They already did burn her).

That's what lies are for!  My warden personally wouldn't care what happens to her after he's free, but of course you wouldn't let her know that.

What if you weakened her so that she can't do any of that anymore? What if she decides  to use your life force to kill you anyways, because you made her hate you?

That is a possibility, but considering that she has a looooong history of using people to her own ends, this is a threat either way.  Considering what she did to her own villagers what's to stop her from taking your life force for any other blood magic related purpose? 

There's nothing guaranteeing that she'd even keep her end of the bargain once you quell the rioters for her, she may decide that she wants to keep your services indefinitely.  Then if you'd be against her, in the fade without the other spirits/Justice to aid you.  It's very risky either way.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...
You might also consider the fact that it's implied she's some sort of blood mage before it's actually revealed. If your character has any sort of hate or fear towards a blood magus, they might not want to negotiate with them either. You know, the whole mind control thing tends to render negotiations sort of moot after a while.

Yes I was fuly aware she is a blood mage. And as a Warden, aka a product of blood magic, the PC had little to fear.
If indeed the Baroness was so powerful as to dominate minds, she would have dominated the mind of her own people instead of let them rebel. So it was not clear that she knows how to, seeing how she can't even control simple villagers.
It's clear she is in a position of weakness (a ruler having all his people rebel is a weakness), or at the very least a position of need. That's the boost we need for negotiation.

[Willowhugger]

The basic point I'm making is that trusting a Blood Mage based on Elizabeth Barthovy isn't really any more logical than trusting a spirit based on Justice. It's a bad situation and it's mostly luck that gets the Warden out of it.



Bluntly, the Baroness has no reason to help people who assist her.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Axekix wrote...

What if you weakened her so that she can't do any of that anymore? What if she decides  to use your life force to kill you anyways, because you made her hate you?

That is a possibility, but considering that she has a looooong history of using people to her own ends, this is a threat either way.  Considering what she did to her own villagers what's to stop her from taking your life force for any other blood magic related purpose? 

There's nothing guaranteeing that she'd even keep her end of the bargain once you quell the rioters for her, she may decide that she wants to keep your services indefinitely.  Then if you'd be against her, in the fade without the other spirits/Justice to aid you.  It's very risky either way.

She did this to the villagers after they burned her, after she did some horrible things. So it's sort of different.

What's to stop her from betraying us after we help her? Nothing really.
Except a Warden who just proved he can kick ass. And her having little incentives to do so, as she doesn't hate us.

It's risky either way yes. But a hateful sorceress has more reason to do these things to you than one who is, dare I say, grateful or not hateful towards you. 
So when comapring those two situations. One where you fight and anger the only person who can help you. Or the other when you help the only person who can help you. I would say the former is more risky than the latter.
 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Willowhugger wrote...

The basic point I'm making is that trusting a Blood Mage based on Elizabeth Barthovy isn't really any more logical than trusting a spirit based on Justice. It's a bad situation and it's mostly luck that gets the Warden out of it.

Bluntly, the Baroness has no reason to help people who assist her.

Baroness CAN help. Justice CAN'T.
So it's irrelevent if Justice would help, as he most probably can't.

The Baroness could be willing to help, or could not. Making her angry and hateful would not help our cause really.
She may have no reason to help those who assist her, but nor does she have reason to betray. She has even less reason to help someone who just fought against her and more reason to backstab.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mai 2010 - 09:09 .

[Tirigon]

Willowhugger wrote...

The basic point I'm making is that trusting a Blood Mage based on Elizabeth Barthovy isn't really any more logical than trusting a spirit based on Justice.

The fact that she is based on Bathory makes it interesting, though.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

She has even less reason to help someone who just fought against her and more reason to backstab.

Not really. Maybe you think more like a martyr, but I would imagine a sword at the throat combined with the words: "Get me out here NOW or...." is a pretty strong reason to do what you´re told

[Willowhugger]

Baroness CAN help. Justice CAN'T.
So it's irrelevent if Justice would help, as he most probably can't.

The Baroness could be willing to help, or could not. Making her angry and hateful would not help our cause really.
She may have no reason to help those who assist her, but nor does she have reason to betray. She has even less reason to help someone who just fought against her and more reason to backstab.

I disagree,

Justice CAN help in forcing the Baroness to comply.  Making the Baroness angry is immaterial to the fact she's a DEMON OF PRIDE.  At this point, she's no longer someone that can be trusted to react in a human manner to anything.  You cannot negotiate from a position of trust with something fundamentally evil.  I'm not demonizing her, the game explicitly states she's a demon.

Also, we don't know that she's capable of repeating the stunt she did before.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

She has even less reason to help someone who just fought against her and more reason to backstab.

Not really. Maybe you think more like a martyr, but I would imagine a sword at the throat combined with the words: "Get me out here NOW or...." is a pretty strong reason to do what you´re told

In which case, I would use the lifeforce and instead of sending you back, kill you. How about that?
I preserve my life and I get to kill someone I hate.

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
You might also consider the fact that it's implied she's some sort of blood mage before it's actually revealed. If your character has any sort of hate or fear towards a blood magus, they might not want to negotiate with them either. You know, the whole mind control thing tends to render negotiations sort of moot after a while.

Yes I was fuly aware she is a blood mage. And as a Warden, aka a product of blood magic, the PC had little to fear.
If indeed the Baroness was so powerful as to dominate minds, she would have dominated the mind of her own people instead of let them rebel. So it was not clear that she knows how to, seeing how she can't even control simple villagers.
It's clear she is in a position of weakness (a ruler having all his people rebel is a weakness), or at the very least a position of need. That's the boost we need for negotiation.

I don't know so much about the Warden becoming a Warden via blood magic. I suppose I see a difference between blood magic, as described in the game, and magic that involves blood- if you get what I'm saying. To each their own on that opinion, though.

I think part of the issue is we don't know the limits of blood magic. One of my mages that I respeced was a blood mage, but other than the AOE spells that allows you to injure a large group of people instantly, it can be argued that they don't know the limits of blood magic. It could be that you're limited to the amount of people you can control at one time, or if there's a time limit to how long it takes. So for a cautious player (or the irrational Wardens ), it might not be something they're willing to chance. And for those of us who favour a 'run over anything between me and my destination' fighting style, it might just not matter. 

[Willowhugger]

In which case, I would use the lifeforce and instead of sending you back, kill you. How about that?
I preserve my life and I get to kill someone I hate.

You can't.

The Baroness can't kill you just like that or she would have in your fight.

Plus, you have friends who'd finish off her immortal life.

[Raiil]

Willowhugger wrote...

Baroness CAN help. Justice CAN'T.
So it's irrelevent if Justice would help, as he most probably can't.

The Baroness could be willing to help, or could not. Making her angry and hateful would not help our cause really.
She may have no reason to help those who assist her, but nor does she have reason to betray. She has even less reason to help someone who just fought against her and more reason to backstab.

I disagree,

Justice CAN help in forcing the Baroness to comply.  Making the Baroness angry is immaterial to the fact she's a DEMON OF PRIDE.  At this point, she's no longer someone that can be trusted to react in a human manner to anything.  You cannot negotiate from a position of trust with something fundamentally evil.  I'm not demonizing her, the game explicitly states she's a demon.

Also, we don't know that she's capable of repeating the stunt she did before.

You don't know she's a pride demon at that point. In fact, you can't say for certain she's a blood mage before a certain point. It becomes a situation of either going with your gut (like my Amell did) or thinking about the possible consequences before coming to whatever your decision is, like KoP does.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Willowhugger wrote...
I disagree,

Justice CAN help in forcing the Baroness to comply.  Making the Baroness angry is immaterial to the fact she's a DEMON OF PRIDE.  At this point, she's no longer someone that can be trusted to react in a human manner to anything.  You cannot negotiate from a position of trust with something fundamentally evil.  I'm not demonizing her, the game explicitly states she's a demon.

Also, we don't know that she's capable of repeating the stunt she did before.

You do not know she is a demon, until later. At that point, you only know she is a blood mage. Point moot.
And had I known it was a demon, it would have been even less risky to deal with it, as demons have shown they are true to their word.

Even when forcing her to comply, you are still trusting her not to use the lifeforce she needs to kill you. Point also moot.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mai 2010 - 09:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Willowhugger wrote...

In which case, I would use the lifeforce and instead of sending you back, kill you. How about that?
I preserve my life and I get to kill someone I hate.

You can't.

The Baroness can't kill you just like that or she would have in your fight.

Plus, you have friends who'd finish off her immortal life.

In the fight, she didn't feed on raw lifeforce like yours. Now, she is. She can kill you or do whatever to you and your companions.

So it's the same deal. Except you are trusting a person who hates you.

[Willowhugger]

You do not know she is a demon, until later. At that point, you only know she is a blood mage. Point moot.
And had I known it was a demon, it would have been even less risky to deal with it, as demons have shown they are true to their word.

Even when forcing her to comply, you are still trusting her not to use the lifeforce she needs to kill you. Point also moot.

Actually, you can assume she's a demon since you had that encounter with the peasant girl turned demon thing in the crypt.  Bluntly, you're just making assumptions that aren't revealed in the game.  

Also, demons are true to their word?  What?

[Raiil]

Willowhugger wrote...

You do not know she is a demon, until later. At that point, you only know she is a blood mage. Point moot.
And had I known it was a demon, it would have been even less risky to deal with it, as demons have shown they are true to their word.

Even when forcing her to comply, you are still trusting her not to use the lifeforce she needs to kill you. Point also moot.

Actually, you can assume she's a demon since you had that encounter with the peasant girl turned demon thing in the crypt.  Bluntly, you're just making assumptions that aren't revealed in the game.  

Also, demons are true to their word?  What?

Er, you can't assume that at all, and I don't know how you'd make that leap of logic. You can reasonably expect the Baroness to be a magus of some sort since she's the one who sent people to the Fade in the fashion that she did, but that doesn't automatically mean she's a demon of sorts. I mean, I play a mage, and while my Amell is one hell of a troll, she's not a monster in that fashion. Being in the Fade =! an abomination.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Willowhugger wrote...
Actually, you can assume she's a demon since you had that encounter with the peasant girl turned demon thing in the crypt.  Bluntly, you're just making assumptions that aren't revealed in the game.  

Also, demons are true to their word?  What?

So are you. Nothing points to her being a demon. Even Justice refers to her as the barones and not as the demon, until later. So it's a mostly baseless assumption. No one says she is a demon. Nor it is really implied that she is.

Of course they are. My mage made a deal with a pride demon, who gave him 25 sovereigns. And a desire demon whom he had sex with. And a demon who possessed a Templar and who said she woulnd't fight us. None of them harmed him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 mai 2010 - 09:22 .

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


In which case, I would use the lifeforce and instead of sending you back, kill you. How about that?
I preserve my life and I get to kill someone I hate.

Sadly for you I have a mage and a fade spirit who will prevent you from doing such bad things.

[sleepingbelow]

In retrospect, you know that one way or another, the Baroness is the one who brings you back.  At the time, in addition to not believing that the Spirit of Justice could return us, my character didn't believe she knew how to either, regardless of what she claimed. Her back was against the wall. If you put a knife to my throat, I will *tell* you about all kinds of stuff that I can do for you. Stuff you want to hear.
Geography and architecture are mutable in the Fade. You're mainly obstructed by your own mind, and the minds of others. She had set up psychic road blocks to keep others there. I believed that was what was keeping me in that part of the Fade. My goal was to first pacify the area, kill anything that was creating barriers (Baroness, the First, any spirit or demon that looked at me sideways). Then to see if the First had left a crack in the Veil that I could exploit. Failing that, reaching out to any spirit that *could* help me, and compelling their service.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 01 mai 2010 - 11:06 .

[Thomas9321]

I sided with Justice. My character (as he told Anders) planned on forcing her to send them all back. Obviously, as it happened, such coercion proved to be unnecessary.

[Serillen]

I side with Justice simply because its the right thing to do and the baroness is not a trustworthy figure. You can't argue that doing so could cause the destruction of Amaranthine because thats Metagame knowledge, you have no idea that the darkspawn are going to launch a large offensive. All you do know the darkspawn are up to something because they haven't dispersed after the blight like they should of, and that right at that moment the villagers need your help to get out from under the heel of the baroness.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Serillen wrote...
you have no idea that the darkspawn are going to launch a large offensive. All you do know the darkspawn are up to something because they haven't dispersed after the blight like they should of, and that right at that moment the villagers need your help to get out from under the heel of the baroness.

Yes because the signs are so optimistic.
Other than the fact there is an army marching West and a breeding ground in the deep roads (if you go there before of course), and intelligent darkspawn who launched a preemptive strike at the Vigil, and Garavel telling you that scouts are detecting darkspawn movements.
I guess no, maybe the darkspawn just want to picnic in Amarathine and not launch a large offensive or anything. 

[Thomas9321]

Siding with Justice isn't as irrational as you're making it sound. There were several possibilities for returning home. Obviously Justice himself, but there is also the veil tear outside of town and possibly other options. Also when you claim "Amaranthine will burn! Who will stop the darkspawn?!" I'm reasonably certain that Alistair/Anora could just send troops north if push came to shove.

[sleepingbelow]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I guess no, maybe the darkspawn just want to picnic in Amarathine and not launch a large offensive or anything. 

Worst.  Picnic.  Ever.

[Thor Rand Al]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xetirox wrote...

The Baroness is not someone to be trusted, her past actions have confirmed as much. Striking any sort of agreement with her based on what you know is nothing short of foolish. If you want someone like her to do something for you, she needs to be brought to heel first. I sided with Justice, but I told him it was only to force the wench to send me back.

That, and I didn't know you could speak to her before storming the gate and arrange such a deal. Ah well.

So you didn't know about the alternative.

Siding with her is a risk, no doubt. But can you guarantee that you can force her to comply, when it would be better to negotiate? You assume that :
a- she won't die.
b- you can win (and she does seem pretty powerful and you are in her home turf)
c- she would comply when brought to heel (why would she? When Justice wants her dead anyways)
d- she wouldn't lie when she does comply

Trusting her completely would be foolish, yes. But she has no real reason to keep you in the fade, not when she knows that would just add more enemies to her rule. It's in her interest to just send us back to where we came.
From what we know, she is the only person capable of tearing the veil, so there is little choice in the matter.
So those siding with the baroness are assuming one thing only, that she isn't lying. Much less risk involved.
 

I myself didn't know there was an alternative and now that I do I still don't think I could side with the Baroness, just like I'll never beable to do the Connor/Isolde sacrifice thing.  The Baroness is evil, she's captured these people instead of letting them have eternal peace and torturing them. 
Yes them burning down the Baroness house with her inside was wrong but she was sacrificing children for her own selfish reason's.  Right there for me is the decision maker, sacrificing a child is just a NO in my book and I'll be damned if I'm going to side with someone who's for that in a game.  That just yells EVIL in my book.