112 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thomas9321 wrote...

Siding with Justice isn't as irrational as you're making it sound. There were several possibilities for returning home. Obviously Justice himself, but there is also the veil tear outside of town and possibly other options. Also when you claim "Amaranthine will burn! Who will stop the darkspawn?!" I'm reasonably certain that Alistair/Anora could just send troops north if push came to shove.

- Justice tells you he doesn't know.
- Assumptions. I didn't see any other possibility and I sure wasn't going to test it
- Your body without its spirit decays. So as much as I would like spending days in the fade searching for your "several possibilities", I would much rather not lose my body in the process.
- Hmm, now I wonder why they didn't tell me that. Otherwise I would have just left and said screw this country. Bad logic. You are the arling and commander of the Grey and its your job to protect Amaranthine, not count on tohers to do it for you.

[Raiil]

I think, in the end, the whole thing is up in the air. It may even vary with class and specs. A powerful Mage or a spirit warrior/templar Warrior probably stands a better chance than a ranger/assassin rogue, because they have abilities in place to better resist a denizen of the Fade, game mechanics aside, in the same way that a fully stealthed out rogue or s&b warrior is better against Loghain than a non AW mage is.

[Serillen]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Serillen wrote...
you have no idea that the darkspawn are going to launch a large offensive. All you do know the darkspawn are up to something because they haven't dispersed after the blight like they should of, and that right at that moment the villagers need your help to get out from under the heel of the baroness.

Yes because the signs are so optimistic.
Other than the fact there is an army marching West and a breeding ground in the deep roads (if you go there before of course), and intelligent darkspawn who launched a preemptive strike at the Vigil, and Garavel telling you that scouts are detecting darkspawn movements.
I guess no, maybe the darkspawn just want to picnic in Amarathine and not launch a large offensive or anything. 

A lot  of that really relies on what order you do your quests in though. You are right somewhat though, you know something is going on but you really don't know to what extent it is and there is no indication that you alone are the key to setting everything right other than the fact that you are the main character in the story and one of the few remaining Wardens in the area.

[Thomas9321]

But it isn't counting on others. It's common sense, the reigning monarch wouldn't let a wealthy arling burn. They would intervene otherwise they would be damn poor rulers. Also - in all circumstances the baroness uses the life force of another to get across the veil correct? She could easily just use the Warden's life force. In addition, she's manipulative and, if you side with Justice shows herself ready to betray allies you have zero reason to trust her. Would that not make your Warden blindly optimistic for just believing everyone?



Surely the only first hand experience of a body wasting away is Niall? Who states that the Sloth demon was feeding on him the whole time, thus accelerating the wasting effect. I think one might have a bit longer than you assume. How is a tear in the veil providing access to the real world an assumption? That's literally what it is, an access point between the two.



Your reasoning is sound, but no more valid than other peoples. I'd also like to point out that siding with Justice does get you out of the fade. Thus it can't be a poor choice, because you do indeed escape the fade. And I will readily concede that it is a choice of morals versus pragmatism, and I chose morals.



Out of curiosity, how does recruiting Justice go if you side with the baroness? Does he ever bring it up again?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thomas9321 wrote...

But it isn't counting on others. It's common sense, the reigning monarch wouldn't let a wealthy arling burn. They would intervene otherwise they would be damn poor rulers. Also - in all circumstances the baroness uses the life force of another to get across the veil correct? She could easily just use the Warden's life force. In addition, she's manipulative and, if you side with Justice shows herself ready to betray allies you have zero reason to trust her. Would that not make your Warden blindly optimistic for just believing everyone?

So my Wardens wishes he could just abandon Amaranthine and Ferelden fort his matter to its fate, because he would rather save orphins in Nevrra. why not?

Of course she can. However, seeing how she is the only person who can send us back, I would rather not anger her, but rather negotiate. It's a risk and I never denied that, but she is the only person who can help.

Thomas9321 wrote...
Surely the only first hand experience of a body wasting away is Niall? Who states that the Sloth demon was feeding on him the whole time, thus accelerating the wasting effect. I think one might have a bit longer than you assume. How is a tear in the veil providing access to the real world an assumption? That's literally what it is, an access point between the two.

If that was the case, there wouldn';t have been a problem now would there. Furthermore, if it's an access point, it could have worked both ways, correct? Well it doesn't, because in the real world, you can see the tears, but cannot use them. And if they indeed worked, then we would have seen demons and spirits entering the blackmarsh. Didn't happen.
So yes, baseless assumption. The tear in the fade is not strong enough to be used, otherwise this wouldn't have been a problem.

Thomas9321 wrote...
Your reasoning is sound, but no more valid than other peoples. I'd also like to point out that siding with Justice does get you out of the fade. Thus it can't be a poor choice, because you do indeed escape the fade. And I will readily concede that it is a choice of morals versus pragmatism, and I chose morals.

Out of curiosity, how does recruiting Justice go if you side with the baroness? Does he ever bring it up again?

Metagmaming. Irrlevent. Furthermore, it's the baroness that gets you out either way and not Justice. In-game, you took a huge risk, mugh more so than siding with the baroness.  

I think he only brings it up when you return to the real world. Not so much after that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 mai 2010 - 12:17 .

[tmp7704]

My city elf told Justice she couldn't side with him without at least speaking with the Baroness first, once Justice admitted he wasn't in position to help her. I can't remember the details now but once inside it kind of went quickly to hell in the handbasket when the Darkspawn guy showed up with Justice. I think i said i made no decision yet, then the Darkspawn guy switched to Baroness side whe he heard she could get him out, and Justice blew the fuse at "more betrayals".



The Darkspawn guy made tactical mistake of attacking my elf rather than ganging up on Justice (not that i didn't own him one for trapping us all there in the first place) and when he went down the Baroness got pissed and threw everyone out using him as the power source. And so it worked out in the end. Somehow.

[Vicious]

Because NO WAY will my Warden ever side with another evil sorceror again. He did that once with the Tevinter Blood Mage and got a measly +1 constitution for sucking the life out of a bunch of elves. It was so lame that I never forgot it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I haven't yet, I've only done two playthroughs, in those I sided with Justice mainly because I didn't know about the option to side with the Baroness the first time, and the second time, I thought that if I did, I'd lose Jutice, and I needed a tank badly.



My next run through I do plan on siding with her, see what happens. Personally, it's a big risk either way. Trusting the Baroness to keep her word, especially given that she is pretty much now a pride demon, is not the lesser of two risks. As far as reasons for breaking her word/keeping you in the fade, demons and spirits are generally not creatures of logic. They can change their mind at a whim, and there are plenty of reasons to keep you: more victims to feed off, spite, whim, ect. And since you are on her turf, she has little reason really to worry about you.



With Justice, he might not know, but is a being who values honor and keeping his word. He might not know now, but he could be trusted to keep his word and search for a method to free you. From what I gather, time, space, and travel in the fade are very different than time in the real world. Justice, as a spirit, probably has some good connections and could find an answer.



Negotiating with demons never seemed like a sound plan to me. I'm yet to find any demon that seemed particularly reasonable. It's like trying to negotiate with religous fanatics, terrorists, or drug addled morons. Better to run em through and figure out another plan.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Negotiating with demons never seemed like a sound plan to me. I'm yet to find any demon that seemed particularly reasonable. It's like trying to negotiate with religous fanatics, terrorists, or drug addled morons. Better
to run em through and figure out another plan.

You are using metagaming here. We did not know that the baroness was in fact a pride demon until later. Up to that point, we only thought she was a blood mage. Justice never said she is a demon and refers to her as the baroness and not as a demon, until later.

And my mage would disagree, he negotiated with many demons in origins and they were true to their word.

[pandymonium]

It was strongly hinted that the baroness was in fact a (pride)demon.

For starters, she was a blood mage. Blood mages often make deals with demons. If a demon has its way these sorts of deals usually result in the demon tricking the the mage and possessing him/her.

She sacrificed dozens(hundreds?) of young women to keep her youth and beauty. Vanity is an example of pride. So yeah.

She cast a spell that created a nightmarish version of the Blackmarsh and trapped the souls of the villagers within. Hmm, sounds familiar? Considering that the exact same thing happened to us at the Circle Tower it probably should. The sloth demon cast a spell that trapped the mages and templars in its realm slowly draining them.
Every Origins character can make the connection based on this previous experience.

And yes, I sided with Justice.

This way my mage can defeat the baroness/demon more easily and force a deal to send my party back. (This guy escaped a nightmare like this before, bested a pride demon in a battle of wills, two others in combat and slayed over a hundred other demons. At this point he can pretty much handle anything the Fade can throw at him.)

Killing the ruler of a Fade realm (like in the sloth demon's case) sent our spirits back across the Veil so if negotiations fail, slaying her will likely get the job done too.

If she can't or won't help, I still have a very grateful Spirit of Justice who will do everything in his power to help me get back.


The baroness is a thoroughly nasty person who uses people for her own ends and a demon to boot. What prevents her from using the life force of your companions to sunder the Veil after you've done her dirty work? Remember, she only promised to send YOU back.  "Succeed and there will be blood enough to permit your wildest fantasies. That and your freedom. Agreed?" Oh sure, I will allow you to murder my companions and laugh in my face because you kept your end of the bargain while screwing me over. NOT... Lucky thing that the First conveniently turned up to be the sacrificial lamb, eh? 
 

Modifié par pandymonium, 02 mai 2010 - 10:48 .

[sleepingbelow]

pandymonium wrote...
Killing the ruler of a Fade realm (like in the sloth demon's case) sent our spirits back across the Veil so if negotiations fail, slaying her will likely get the job done too.

If she can't or won't help, I still have a very grateful Spirit of Justice who will do everything in his power to help me get back.

I would quibble on these two points.  It is likely not true that killing her would automatically send you back.  Remember, she didn't bring you into the Fade.  The Mother, via the First, brought you there.

And to that other thing, Justice does say he doesn't know jack monkey squat about crossing the Veil.  You'd have as much luck asking Sandal.

[Tirigon]

sleepingbelow wrote...

pandymonium wrote...
Killing the ruler of a Fade realm (like in the sloth demon's case) sent our spirits back across the Veil so if negotiations fail, slaying her will likely get the job done too.

If she can't or won't help, I still have a very grateful Spirit of Justice who will do everything in his power to help me get back.

I would quibble on these two points.  It is likely not true that killing her would automatically send you back.  Remember, she didn't bring you into the Fade.  The Mother, via the First, brought you there.

And to that other thing, Justice does say he doesn't know jack monkey squat about crossing the Veil.  You'd have as much luck asking Sandal.

But this part of the Beyond exists only because the Baroness created it; that means killing her will destroy the realm and send you back.

[snapper.fishes]

Does anyone else find it amusing that Knight's avatar is the illusive man? Really fits the image.



To Tirigon: Destroy the realm may be. That doesn't necessary mean it will send you back though.

[sleepingbelow]

Tirigon wrote...

But this part of the Beyond exists only because the Baroness created it; that means killing her will destroy the realm and send you back.

The Fade is always there.  She had just shaped a part of it.  The First is the one that trapped you in the Fade.

[Tirigon]

sleepingbelow wrote...

The Fade is always there.  She had just shaped a part of it.  The First is the one that trapped you in the Fade.

But this part is hers. It doesn´t matter that more Fade is elsewhere.

[sleepingbelow]

What are you talking about? That makes the trap ridiculous. What's the point of the Mother trapping you in the Fade in the first place. The Fade is all the Fade.

[Tirigon]

sleepingbelow wrote...

What's the point of the Mother trapping you in the Fade in the first place. The Fade is all the Fade.

The Mother is insane, don´t forget that. As you could get bonus stats I´d say it was actually a favor to send you there.

[Bl1nder]

My amoral fhn sided with the baroness. Not because she is evil, simply because it was the most pragmatic and sensible choice. Side with a spirit that knows of nothing, or side with a powerful mage who wishes nothing more but for you to leave her domain?

[tmp7704]

Tirigon wrote...

But this part of the Beyond exists only because the Baroness created it; that means killing her will destroy the realm and send you back.

Not entirely sure about that. The Baroness is responsible for "physical" shape of this part of the Fade and she maintains this shape, but if she's removed it might simply mean the Fade reverts to featurless void yet you're still trapped inside this void. There's nothing really that says the Fade must be shaped into anything our minds can recognize, to contain beings within.

The situation is somewhat different from the standard campaign where it was the demon that was actively keeping you inside the Fade, and his 'death' removed that lock on you. In Awakenings you're held inside by whatever Mother used to pull you in, and it had zero connection to the Baroness and/or her existence.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Negotiating with demons never seemed like a sound plan to me. I'm yet to find any demon that seemed particularly reasonable. It's like trying to negotiate with religous fanatics, terrorists, or drug addled morons. Better
to run em through and figure out another plan.

You are using metagaming here. We did not know that the baroness was in fact a pride demon until later. Up to that point, we only thought she was a blood mage. Justice never said she is a demon and refers to her as the baroness and not as a demon, until later.

And my mage would disagree, he negotiated with many demons in origins and they were true to their word.

I could be mistaken, but Justice did mention something about her being something more than just a foul sorceress before you storm the gates, so I don't think I'm metagaming here.

Whether or not a demon is to be trusted depends entirely on the character being played. My blood mage certainly has a more pragmatic view of demons, my other mage has much reason not to. Demon aside, the fact that the baroness is a blood mage is enough to make my other mage pause, given her own experiences and the havoc and hell they can wreak.

Siding with the Baroness certainly is pure, cold hard pragmatism, not necessarily evil, depending on your motivation. Now that I know that you don't necessarily lose Justice for siding with her, I will be able to make the decision from an RP perspective, and not merely from game mechanics and my need for a tank.

But I feel that not siding with her can also be a practical descision, when other factors or taken in. To be honest, I really am not one to care about the fate of a bunch of peasants trapped in the fade, but there are other reasons that I would  not side with her.

[Tirigon]

tmp7704 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

But this part of the Beyond exists only because the Baroness created it; that means killing her will destroy the realm and send you back.

Not entirely sure about that. The Baroness is responsible for "physical" shape of this part of the Fade and she maintains this shape, but if she's removed it might simply mean the Fade reverts to featurless void yet you're still trapped inside this void. There's nothing really that says the Fade must be shaped into anything our minds can recognize, to contain beings within.

In case this is true I will just assume Control of this part of the Fade and shape it to my wishes, thus allowing me to create an exit.

[HoonDing]

I thought this thread would be about G.I. Joe.

[tmp7704]

Tirigon wrote...

In case this is true I will just assume Control of this part of the Fade and shape it to my wishes, thus allowing me to create an exit.

Isn't that something only the spirits can do, though? Although i guess that'd mean Justice should be capable of it once the Baroness is gone. Unless it requires some certain levels of power that's beyond him...

[Tirigon]

tmp7704 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

In case this is true I will just assume Control of this part of the Fade and shape it to my wishes, thus allowing me to create an exit.

Isn't that something only the spirits can do, though? Although i guess that'd mean Justice should be capable of it once the Baroness is gone. Unless it requires some certain levels of power that's beyond him...

If the Baroness can shape the Fade, why should your PC not be able? After all, shaping a part of the Fade by your will is what you do when you dream. At least a Blood Mage would be for sure.

It gets complicated with dwarfs though, as they can´t enter the fade normally.

[Caldarin V]

I agree that siding with Justice was risky... but to counter that

explain why siding with a madwoman who had trapped an entire village in the fade is a good idea?

There's absolutely no guarantee that she'll help you at all; she's clearly evil and my character would expect her to break any agreement made