556 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Poor Brand. 

[Sarah1281]

 Just...

[SurelyForth]

That's a total of three reviews expressed almost entirely via sad-faced emoticon. Seriously, ff.net should look into making this a feature.
Also, allow me to join you in . The back half of the chapter was almost as hard to write as some of the Fiona/Alistair stuff.  

[Galagraphia]

Oh, you gave me a few spoilers about it, but I wasn't prepared for this. Poor Anders! (I would say 'Poor Brand' but I think what she's doing there is too wrong to feel sorry for her at the moment) I'm so glad that I hate playing as a noble human and all my wardens (except mrs Queen) are commoners and stay away from politics.

[LadyDamodred]

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I find Brand to be fairly unsympathetic.  I feel bad for her situation, but not for her, if that makes any sense.  I feel bad for the people around her, and the way she's managed to mess up their lives, but not for the mess she's made of her own.  And that's even without this last chapter where I'm losing all respect for her.  I just cannot put myself in her place in order to dredge up the necessary sympathy to make this truly compelling for me.

That being said, I feel bad for the other characters and their situations.  I do feel sympathy for what they've been through, are going through and will go through.  Their struggles are compelling for me, in different ways.

Maybe I'm just the odd one out because I'm not getting it.  And it's not that it isn't well-written, because it is, but I find it hard to read things where I cannot put myself in the character's shoes.  And I'm not trying to be overly harsh or critical or be a b!tch.  It's just been something that's been bothering me for awhile and I feel I should say something because I appreciate the same sort of honesty from my readers.  And lord knows I do things that I know makes people throw up their hands and give up, so I understand that not all stories connect with all readers, no matter how much you want them to or try to explain it.

I just wanted to put that out there.  Again, not trying to ****** anyone off, but if I'm going to ask for the same honesty of my readers, then I need to make sure I do it myself or risk being a hypocrit.

[Addai]

I don't see that Brand has made a mess of anyone's life. By falling in love with Anders? Giving Alistair a second chance? As I read this chapter, she is so lost at the center of her life- unable to face its reality- that she decided to let the unreality of her reputation take over because that is what people expect of her. It is a different spin on the way the Hero of Ferelden has to put on a face in public. The tragedy here being that it is her own family and with her lover, the place where she should feel safe, where she felt like she had to wear a mask and a rather demeaning one. The fact that she got herself into it all is part of the mess. It is a story where there aren't any heroes or villains.

[MelRedux]

Brand's life is falling apart in front of her, how is she supposed to react?



It's not HER fault that Bryce is a mage. It's not HER fault that she fell in love with Anders, who is also a mage, and its not HER fault that rumors started about them having an affair while she was still amrried to Teagan. She is a victim of circumstance, and frankly I think the fact that she can still breathe is a miracle. Everything she cares about and everything that gives her meaning is being ripped from her, through no fault of her own.



Add to that the fact that she was humiliated, in one of the few places that she should feel safe (liek Addai said), and its no surprise that she would self destruct. Her life's going to hell, there's nothing she can do to stop it. Why not help it along? It's a very real human reaction to a horrrible situation. Brand is human, not superhuman.

[jenncgf]

If I was drunk, had been humiliated at dinner, and then told that the only thing in life that grounded me and let me be myself was not allowed to happen, I'm not sure I could do much better.  Especially after the second humiliation of being questioned about my only child's paternity.

Is hr behavior self-destructive?  Yes.  Has she also been through hell and back, even though she tried for a long time to live up to her own brother's expectations and it made her miserable?  Yes.  But noting the title of the work, I would safely argue the THIS is the undertow that keeps trying to drag Brand under.  I hope she can resurface and eventually find a wave to ride into shore.  I sincerely hope that Anders can be her liferaft/surfboard/insert analogy here.


(Great job, Surely!)

[MelRedux]

SurelyForth wrote...

*puts on helmet and braces for impact*

Oh, and no worries.  I'm too  for headcrackin' *drops bat in defeat*

[LupusYondergirl]

I don't know, Brand kind of lost me here, too. Self destructive is one thing. Having a threesome where she knows the one person who has always been there for her will walk in since it's easier than talking to him? That's beyond cruel. Self destructive would hurt herself, she's orchestrating situations that will hurt others as much as possible.

It's a credit to Surely that reactions to this chapter seem so passionate, though.

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 30 août 2010 - 04:57 .

[Galagraphia]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

I don't know, Brand kind of lost me here, too. Self destructive is one thing. Having a threesome where she knows the one person who has always been there for her will walk in since it's easier than talking to him? That's beyond cruel. Self destructive would hurt herself, she's orchestrating situations that will hurt others as much as possible.

It's a credit to Surely that reactions to this chapter seem so passionate, though.

I must agree with you here. I don't know why she didn't run to Anders, I hope it's just because she was drunk and those guys took advantage. And I don't think she's trying to fight for her happiness hard enough. I don't think she's fighting for it at all. Perhaps it's because she's that much broken and doesn't have strength for it, and doesn't allow others to help her.

Besides, being arlessa of Redcliffe is not the end of life. It's a temporally measure, obviously, because she's a warden, she won't leave long, her son can't inherit and she must find a successor somewhere. Maybe she just needs to sober a bit and to think of possible ways out of this mess instead of drowning in it. Oh well,  I'm not trying to judge her, it's simply my optimism, and my desire to see Anders and Bryce happy.

[LadyDamodred]

I never claimed she should be superhuman.  That would make it worse.  And there are some circumstances beyond her control, and I understand that.  I'm not saying that she isn't in a bad spot.  She has made some really terrible choices, and she carries the guilt from those, and now she's dealing with a whole host of other problems.  That's all totally fine.

What I said was that I don't find her sympathetic, and it goes back further than just this chapter.  This chapter just sort of made me lose respect for her and kind of pushed me over the edge in needing to say something.  As someone who lives off of feedback, I like hearing back from readers about what they like and don't like. I like knowing if what I'm trying to do is coming across correctly.  It doesn't always, and that's what I find so valuable about feedback that's not always positive.  It's only fair that I reciprocate in kind, and that's what I'm trying to do here.  It's not an attack at all and I hope everyone understands that.  Obviously, people are enjoying this fic and I'm not trying to take that away from them.  I don't think Surely's intent is to leave the reader feeling the way I am feeling and that's why I feel compelled to voice my opinion.

This is probably why I like my angst in smaller portions.  I can only accept so much before it loses its impact.  Add that to the fact that I cannot understand her thought processes and why she does what she does, and it gets very frustrating.  I understand not all fics are for everyone.  It could be, however much I enjoyed the fic in the beginning, in the long run it's not the story for me and that's fine.  I'm not asking Surely to change the story because I don't like where it's going.  I would never dream of doing that.  But as I've discovered, sometimes defending your decisions can help both you improve as a writer, and help a reader who is lost understand what's going on and get back into the story.

[SurelyForth]

Just so I don't seem utterly uncouth, I have read everything posted today and am thinking about it. Unfotunately, today is the first day of classes at my university so things are insane in my office. I'll give a thoughtful response this evening when my brain isn't on the verge of exploding.

[LadyDamodred]

SurelyForth wrote...

Just so I don't seem utterly uncouth, I have read everything posted today and am thinking about it. Unfotunately, today is the first day of classes at my university so things are insane in my office. I'll give a thoughtful response this evening when my brain isn't on the verge of exploding.

Oooh, joy of joys.  Work starts tomorrow for me, and I was busy all weekend with a visiting friend.  I'm running off of less than 4 hours of sleep today, and between that and trying to find a car for tomorrow, I'm utterly exhausted.  Respond when you're well-rested. 

[nos_astra]

Galagraphia wrote...
And I don't think she's trying to fight for her happiness hard enough. I don't think she's fighting for it at all.

I don't think there's much she can do. I know, many fanfics simply gloss over the fact that mages aren't supposed to roam free, marry whom they like and start a merry little family but it shouldn't be possible. If she wants to live with Bryce and Anders they are going to be apostates and they are going to be hunted down. They would have to leave for Rivain or go into hiding somewhere else. Brand could not be Arlessa of anything if she was married to Anders. (Unless for some odd reasons she going to change the rules of the Chantry, which seems unlikely.)
The right (lawful) thing to do would be to send Bryce to the Circle and if Anders is worth his salt he'd accompany him. But Anders is Anders... (and human, it's a horrible choice, I'd probably leave and hide).

(Didn't Brand kill Isolde at Redcliffe? Or did she kill Connor?)

Some things you can't change. The smart thing to do would be talking to Anders and figuring out what to do, but obviously Brand isn't that smart. She basically did the same thing after Alistair left, instead of dealing with the consequences of what she'd decided she had sex with Teagan and married him. Of course, after she didn't cheat on Teagan (whom she liked but didn't love, whom she pushed away most of the time)  you'd expect her not to ruin her blossoming relationship by cheating on Anders, but ... Brand is not that smart? :-/

I like flawed characters but Brand is just ... I don't understand her.

Modifié par klarabella, 30 août 2010 - 07:38 .

[Addai]

Well, Anders did not exactly acquit himself well in this situation, either. Maybe he was just oblivious, but he also didn't try to come find her? I do agree with klarabella that I would rather see the harsh realities of Ferelden life played/ written realistically.

@LadyD: I don't know that I see what terrible choices Brand has made, other than marrying Teagan when she didn't love him, which is de rigeur for her station and the setting??

Modifié par Addai67, 30 août 2010 - 08:03 .

[Galagraphia]

klarabella wrote...
I don't think there's much she can do. 

I wrote about one possible way out for her and I can think about at least one extra option. But she acts like she's sentenced to the death and refuses to use her brains or discuss the problem with people who care for her. She just gave up. I can't sympathize her in this chapter, but, well, maybe that is how Surely wanted us to feel.

[Sandtigress]

Well, I think we often trap ourselves in "this is all that's possible". It doesn't help her that Fergus agrees with her, or that Anders' suggestions have been "if everything happens just right then this maybe might possibly work. Maybe".

I think given the state of things in Ferelden, Brand's expectations and thoughts are realistic. We really do like to try to paint a more positive atmosphere in Ferelden, but the fact of the matter is that people in Thedas and in Ferelden in particular for this story mistrust mages and would never allow one near a seat of power (exception being a mage Hero of Ferelden, and even then it's probably an iffy exception). As much as we want a "ride off into the sunset together" ending, Brand and Fergus are right in believing that such a thing is nearly impossible for a noblewoman who needs to take on a seat of power.

Brand also, perhaps, is caught up in the vortex of "Everything I try to do right gets screwed up in the end anyways". She's been on that proverbial "road paved with good intentions" for awhile now without a lot to show for it. I really think she and Alistair are quite the same in that regard, as per the last chapter. They both keep getting screwed over and both remain quite hopeful that maybe this time things will work out. But sometimes you just feel like the world has gone to hell and it's taking you with it, and sometimes it's hard to fight against that pull.

I don't think anyone's saying that Brand cheating on Anders would be a good thing, but it's not an unreasonable action (or lack of action, as it were) on her part given the emotional storm around her. She might even be hoping, perhaps subconsciously, to get caught and let that be a cause for ending the relationship, rather than having to end it herself because of circumstance. At least then she can have someone to blame (herself) that she can actually rail at rather than intangible fate.

Anyway, my rambly two cents on the matter. Blame my fuzzy head!

[MelRedux]

Sandtigress wrote...
I don't think anyone's saying that Brand cheating on Anders would be a good thing, but it's not an unreasonable action (or lack of action, as it were) on her part given the emotional storm around her. She might even be hoping, perhaps subconsciously, to get caught and let that be a cause for ending the relationship, rather than having to end it herself because of circumstance. At least then she can have someone to blame (herself) that she can actually rail at rather than intangible fate.

YES this!  This THIS!

I love it when eloquent people say things that I want to say, so I don't have to do it 

[Miri1984]

To quote something you said about Joss Whedon, Surely: "Why do you hate nice things??"



But truly, I can see why she's done this even if it makes me want to kick her in the head. And to be honest I think Anders will understand if he gives her a chance to explain herself. And he'll never turn his back on Bryce, no matter what Brand does.



I can't see a way out for her unless something unexpected turns up. Tell me this story is near the end? I don't think I'm going to read another chapter until I know I can get all the way to the end and find out what happens, so excuse the lack of reviews! I still want to finish it but I WANT CLOSURE!

[SurelyForth]

 Here we go:
@Gala: There are two main reasons Brand is viewing the gig at Redcliffe as being long term. The first is because Fergus was right when he said that the nobility is stretched thin as it is. They still haven't recovered fully from the war/Blight and with the Guerrin line dead in the water, that's pretty much the last blow it can take for awhile. Redcliffe is an important holding, from a military standpoint, so careful consideration needs to go into who it passes over to. Even though she might be stupid, she's done an excellent job in Amaranthine.

Secondly, Brand can't let anyone know that Bryce can't inherit until he's old enough to conscript. It would raise suspicion for her to hand over lands that, for all intents and purposes, should go to her son. So she's there for at least, I'd say, 14 years minimum. While not a death sentence, for someone who is already fretting about not getting to see her son grow old, the fact that she's going to miss most of his childhood is pretty horrible. 

@klarabella: First off, Brand allowed Isolde to sacrifice herself. When she found out about Bryce, her first impulse was very much Tower. However, because she trusts Anders and can't bring herself to lock Bryce up, she's willing to circumvent the rules as much as she can. The squire plan is, I think, the smart idea. It's hiding him in plain sight, in a traditional role, and in a place where he will be protected and where others can be protected from him (if it comes to that, which I don't believe it would).

Having him train with the Wardens and be in the guardianship of a Warden mage might even be a sufficient argument should the unthinkable happen and he be discovered by the Chantry before he's old enough to be Conscripted. He might not be spared from the Circle, but it probably would go no further than that. If Anders took him on the run, there'd be no accountability and the templars would probably not hesitate to bring the hurt.

@LD: I understand what you're doing with the criticism and appreciate you bringing these sorts of things to my attention. 

*for discussion purposes, The Hopewell Thing is not included in the following paragraphs...it will get its own note*

I don't see that Brand has made a series of bad decisions that have ruined the lives of those around her. She saved Alistair; were it not for her doing exactly what Zevran knew she would do (what he manipulated her into doing) he would be dead. As it is, he's a mess but he's a mess who has hit bottom and wasn't abandoned (which she could have done, considering what he purposely took from her).

Her mistake with him was that she was so desperate for things to be normal again, she rushed it and the wrong way. She went for an emotional resolution, got excited and blew it (but was willing to shoulder the blame for it). It wasn't stupid or selfish, it was naive. I can't see how she's wronged him since, considering she's went out of her way to make him feel useful and is willing to vouch for him in front of Anora. Perhaps her telling him flat out that she's closed her heart to him was not nice, but I think he needed to hear it (because it shows how, even though he deliberately hurt her, he's not a lost cause to her).  

She hasn't hurt Fiona, since Fiona is there f her own volition, because of Alistair, and sort of set up the whole mother-reveal fiasco by giving Brand that responsibility. And as messy as the mother-reveal was, I can't imagine it ever go well with this Alistair. It was never going to be easy, and he was always going to react with anger or apathy and she was always going to suffer. Brand didn't force her to give up her child 27 years ago, nor did she force her to join them on the trip to Highever. 

She's annoyed Nathaniel (but his issues with her are personal and extend beyond anything she actually did) and neither her nor Sigrun have been hurt or even put out by this. It's their job. They knew there were assassins about and Brand can hardly be blamed for what they do (and they'd be attacking the Vigil were they all still there, anyway). She's the Arlessa and Warden-Commander- if there were just roving bands of assassins lose in Amaranthine, they'd be investigating and fighting them. This is really not that much different. 

Bryce isn't unhappy, nor is he suffering or hurt. He was scared over what happened in the Tavern (not Brand's fault) and the confrontation between Anders and Alistair (not Brand's fault...she may have set Alistair off, but it was his decision to do what he did). She should have sent him to his room, but things were so crazy and happened so fast that she really didn't have a chance.

She hurt Anders by suggesting that his training Bryce would turn out like the Connor situation and by trying to take the blame for what Alistair did to him and Bryce. As it was in the immediate aftermath of something seriously life changing and horrible for her, he dealt with it head on and worked things out. 

So that's it (I think). I'm straining to see how, before The Hopewell Thing, she was being that stupid or unsympathetic as she's been mostly riding in a carriage, sleeping and talking about assassins for the past several chapters. Was she unsympathetic in her interactions with Zevran? Was she mean to Alistair when she explained to him that he'd been like family to their companions and then gave him a chance to do something? She's not even had a lot of decisions to make beyond personal ones and "I should trust my friend who I don't think would try to kill me." I guess I need specifics to make a truly coherent defense.

The Hopewell Thing- It sucks. Considering the crushing prison that is her life at the moment they walked in, and the amount of alcohol in her, it's also fairly inevitable. She had no idea they'd come for her while she was procrastinating breaking the news to Anders, and they caught her at the most vulnerable moment. She's basically at the crossroads of heartbreak- the home where her family and her life were taken away from her before the Blight and, in a far less dramatic way, where her family and life were taken from her again. What she's doing isn't right, but she's so thoroughly mentally compromised that everything that isn't immediate physical sensation is a million miles away and there really isn't a right or a good. Just varying degrees of suck that she just can't take anymore.

And it's perfectly understandable if that's the way you feel about the story in general. It's hard. If you honestly don't care for the protagonist, then it would be pretty much impossible to enjoy on any level. Besides that...I don't know what else to say (unless you give me specifics, then I'll probably have a lot to say.)

Modifié par SurelyForth, 31 août 2010 - 12:46 .

[LadyDamodred]

I don't refer to just the events in the story, but everything since the Landsmeet. *shrugs* Her life is a clusterf*ck and it's mainly her doing. And it sort of baffles me how she can so poorly judge reactions from people, especially Alistair. Maybe I've missed something along the way. It's highly likely at this point. But she tells Fiona that she's never met anyone who needed acceptance and family more than Alistair, yet she was going to marry him to Anora and then spared Loghain. I don't get it. I can't make the two positions balance in my mind. Is this just hindsight?

And then you have the whole debacle with Teagan, the fall out from that. Having Fiona see Alistair the way he is now. Having Alistair having to deal with all this (and I have thought more than once it might have been kinder to just let him die). I'm not saying she's solely responsible for what happened, but a good deal of the blame, for lack of a better word, does fall on her.

She's not stupid, and she's not totally unsympathetic. I felt really bad for her in the beginning. But it's been near-unrelenting misery since and my sympathy is gone. You know that one person who every knows that has everything bad happen to them and after a certain point you don't even care anymore? I think because we spend so much time in Brand's head, that's what's happened here. I cannot find it in myself to muster up any more caring for her position.

Edit:  Adventure Kitten decided to submit my post before I was done. 

Anyways, I think I have clearly missed something here or something is not connecting the way it's supposed to.  Maybe I should have said something earlier.  I don't know.  I don't want to turn this into a huge, long debate or anything like that.  It's your story and I understand that, but I had to get it out there.

Edit 2:  I just probably also note that it may, in part, be a personality conflict with me.  Usually, with people I know, I take this sort of thing up to a certain point and then tell them to get over it.  B/c I can't do that to Brand, I'm feeling very frustrated.

Edit 3:  I do appreciate you taking the time to explain.  I know how tough it can be to do sometimes.  And I aplogize for the multiple edits.  My brain is friggin' fried atm.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 31 août 2010 - 12:56 .

[SurelyForth]

Ah, the Landsmeet. Well, I've indicated that she took the events before the Landsmeet quite hard (crying all night after she killed Howe, her nightmare about Fort Drakon) and was closing herself off to Alistair the whole time as she struggled with what they were doing and how she should handle the ruler situation.

She arranged for him to marry Anora partially because she thought it would be a smart political move and partially because she wasn't going to be queen, so better the devil she knew. At that point, since they'd already discussed the infertility thing, Alistair having the family he wanted seemed incredibly remote no matter what.

And she spared Loghain because she'd hit a wall and couldn't make herself kill a man who had yielded because that's what he would do. It was Alistair's decision to quit the Wardens and leave before she could explain what she intended to happen (ie send Loghain off with Riordan while she and Alistair stayed with their companions). Since sparing Loghain is lauded as a smart decision by many, and since she told Alistair that he didn't have to leave, I don't see how it's actually her fault (even though, until like 4 chapters ago, she blamed herself for him leaving and screwing his life up).

Honestly, I think the biggest mistake she made was marrying Teagan. However, she did try to warn him, and then she did give him an out. Had she not gotten pregnant, they would have sought an annulment. After Bryce was born, he was actually quite happy at Vigil's Keep and they were far from miserable together. She was just not that emotionally fulfilled, because she didn't love him and she wanted to (and knew she should). I imagine it was a fairly standard situation for noblewomen at the time, to be honest. They were quite close and worked well together, they just weren't a love match. The fact that she had felt something with Anders that she thought might be love didn't make things any easier, despite how careful they were to not let their emotions out.

I guess I don't understand what you mean about allowing Fiona to see Alistair the way he is now, since she didn't even know they had any connection until well into their travels. And she misjudges Alistair, especially in the beginning, because she thinks she knows him and sometimes she does, but he's different in many ways and moody. I likened him to a dog with an unpredictable vicious streak, and he kind of is, only she thought she was still dealing with docile Alistair until she screwed things up on the pier.

That's pretty much all that's her fault, really. The Landsmeet decision (but not Alistair leaving immediately), marrying Teagan (which was worse for her than him) and some of Alistair's difficulties adjusting (and she's also helped him in a lot of ways). The assassins aren't her fault at all. Eamon's death isn't her fault, nor is the general sad state of Ferelden nobility. Bryce being a mage, also not her fault (nor is Anders being a mage, or the rumors that they were together while Teagan was alive).

Of course, since I can't imagine not caring for the person who is having everything bad happen to them, I have a feeling this is going to come down to a difference in personalities, to be honest. 

Edited: The above came out harsher than I intended. My point is that I think we probably serve two very different purposes in our respective social circles (you're the one that helps people get over their **** and move on with their lives, while I'm cuddly and supportive and give friendly advice that promptly gets ignored). I think a character like Brand is not going to unite us.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 31 août 2010 - 02:04 .

[LadyDamodred]

I think we all know where I stand on thinking that sparing Loghain is a smart decision. *whistles*



I don't think I'm articulating very well atm. Scratch that, I know I'm not. My brain knows what it wants to say, but I can't find the right way to express it, apparently. I think it's more a consequences of actions thing than anything deliberate.



It is amost certainly a difference in personality. I am sympathetic to people who have bad things happen, and I do what I can to help even if it's just listening. But it sometimes passes a point where the person is holding onto stuff in order to feel miserable. That's like what I feel is happening here, and unless I've misread things (which is very possible), that seems to be what Brand has done. *recalls the convo with Anders* That irritates me to no end in rl.



Ah well, ignore my babbling. Carry on! I'll just be over here. *hikes thumb behind her*

[Galagraphia]

@SurelyForth, I understand about importance of Redcliffe and other things. And I'm not saying she must tell everyone about Bryce, I'm totally with Anders here. It just hurts me that after finally finding her love she gives up so fast. She doesn't even think to try and search for some solution. I don't think she the only trustworthy noble in entire Ferelden, she could use the time she wins by becoming arlessa to spread her influence, to find allies. She must do it because after her death Redcliffe will need an heir anyway. She could discuss this with Anora, make her assign a teyrn to Gwaren again to gain more support at the Landsmeet. She could use her time to deal with Crows. Well, this may seem naive and stupid to some, but wasn't fighting the entire Blight with only 2 Grey Wardens pretty much the same? There are always some options, I don't think it's wise to give up before even considering them. It could be just me and my never dying optimism, of course, and my personal experience that impossible things do happen if you really want them to happen and fight for it. I think if she talked to Anders he would tell her not to give up. Because he never does it and it serves him well.



And of course she fell down in my eyes because of Hopewells. That thing really makes me want to send my mage to firestorm the next Landsmeet and raise some sensible and less spoilt people to nobility.