556 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

I'm not just saying this to be a fangirl, but all of SurelyForth's points make complete sense to me and is how I've been tracking with the story. I can't see where any of Alistair's problems are Brand's fault, for one thing. Doesn't he bear some responsibility for his life? If anyone needs to "just get over it" and stop holding on to what is keeping him down...? This is a chance for him to find his feet again and deal with his past, and in that is Brand doing him a big service.

As for Redcliffe, I guess that Brand could use the GW card as the pretext for not accepting the arling. It will be looked on as suspicious, however, given that she's arlessa of Amaranthine and Bryce is Redcliffe's heir. I wonder if she could not re-institute the practice of having a court mage. If it worked for Wilhelm, maybe for Anders?

Modifié par Addai67, 31 août 2010 - 03:37 .

[Miri1984]

Mostly @Lady D and @Surely:



Reading this is amazingly interesting. I have a different take on things than Lady D - the reason everything is so horrible is because there really WASN'T anything Brand could have done differently - aside from sparing Loghain - that would have made her life better. Everything has been stacked against her - all the fault of the story, not Brand's - hence my comment to Surely "Why do you hate nice things".



It's funny that you're having this discussion, because the OTHER story that I find too emotional at the moment is yours Lady D - and for exactly the same reason. The STORY is making life too horrible for people I like. Both of you are exceptionally good at that, hence the large amount of discussion on both of your threads about plot decisions.



It's also why I'm reading them, I care too much about the characters not to find out how they resolve the issues. I can't do it to my own characters though.

[SurelyForth]

Addai67 wrote...
As for Redcliffe, I guess that Brand could use the GW card as the pretext for not accepting the arling. It will be looked on as suspicious, however, given that she's arlessa of Amaranthine and Bryce is Redcliffe's heir. I wonder if she could not re-institute the practice of having a court mage. If it worked for Wilhelm, maybe for Anders?

She could appoint him as a court mage, but that wouldn't really placate the nobility who are already convinced they've been screwing for years. He'd still have too much influence and it would have to be approved by Chantry/Circle since he'd no longer be a Warden.

Miri1984 wrote...

Reading this is amazingly interesting. I have a different take on things than Lady D - the reason everything is so horrible is because there really WASN'T anything Brand could have done differently - aside from sparing Loghain - that would have made her life better. Everything has been stacked against her - all the fault of the story, not Brand's - hence my comment to Surely "Why do you hate nice things".

I'll tell you something, not sparing Loghain would really have been the best idea ever. For too many reasons to count. 

[LadyDamodred]

Addai: I'm not trying to say others don't bear responsibility either. Argh. I can't find the right words and you have no idea how frustrating it is. I'm just gonna chalk it up to personality differences and how we see characters and let that part of the discussion go. My head hurts.

And I know Surely's points make sense to you, and to a lot of people. I don't doubt that in the slightest. I just cannot put myself in Brand's place, and lord knows I've tried. *shrugs* It's not an issue limited to this fic, either. It happens a lot for me.

Miri: The funny thing is, I have no problem doing awful things to characters, or letting them be miserable. My Second Chance story comes to mind. Those characters were really messed up, but the story wasn't that long. I think what gets me here is that the misery is just constant and on-going and it's exhausting. Hence liking my angst in smaller doses because after awhile it does lose its impact for me. I will keep reading, partly because I want to know what happens to Alistair and partly because my OCD compells me. Like you said, I want closure.

The irony of that is that things have been miserable in Sundered Order for awhile and I'm struggling not to rush the story because I don't want people to fall into the predicament I find myself in. I don't want them to get lost in it so completely that they get sick of hearing about it. And now I'm getting off-topic. My bad.

Edit:  I do want to say that life has been stressful for me for the last few days, and I'm having my usual anxiety about the school year starting, and I'm running off of little sleep, and dealing with my own angtsy fic, so these things may have just combined in the perfect storm to push me over the edge.

*whispers to Miri*  Embrace the pain....  Do it....

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 31 août 2010 - 04:21 .

[nos_astra]

Miri1984 wrote...
I have a different take on things than Lady D - the reason everything is so horrible is because there really WASN'T anything Brand could have done differently - aside from sparing Loghain - that would have made her life better.

Oh, there is. She could have had Loghain executed for treason, she could have put Anora on the throne alone (even with Loghain executed), she could have said no to Teagan, she could have resigned as the Warden Commander, she could have cheated on Teagan (like I would have expected anyway, don't understand why she didn't) and been in a relationship with Anders for years (which could have lend her more strength), she could have not cheated on Anders right now, she could have been less ignorant and blurted Fiona's secret out in front of Alistair like that, she could have treated Alistair better (so that he might have trusted her more and told her about his observations earlier and definitely not in a blaze of fury), she could have refused the relationship with Anders for the same reasons she refused it before (so he would have seen no reason to keep silent about Bryce's magic), she could have refused Zevran's contract, she could have stayed at Amaranthine, she could..., she could..., she could...

Basically I agree with LD, I don't understand Brand. I started to doubt her when she forgot to supervise Alistair's healing (How long did he run around with a broken jaw? Two days, because Anders wanted to punish him?) and began to dislike her when she snuggled with her men in the carriage in front of Alistair. (Oh please, you can be that ignorant!) Oh, and I hated her when she told a broken Alistair that it was all his fault. (Take a knife and slit his throat already, can't be worse than what he's been going through!)

As you said, it's a personality thing.

Modifié par klarabella, 31 août 2010 - 08:26 .

[Galagraphia]

I can't agree that to marry Teagan was a bad thing, because we have super-adorable Bryce thanks to it ))))) lol, people who didn't read your fanfic, Surely, coment my pictures of Bryce saying that he must be Anders' son. I blame the smirk. And even though I lost a bit of respect for Brand, I hope Anders and Bryce will be happy together within the wardens and Bryce will survive to become awesome arcane archer.

[nos_astra]

Galagraphia wrote...
I can't agree that to marry Teagan was a bad thing, because we have super-adorable Bryce thanks to it.

But without Bryce there would be no trouble.

You can't change things anyway but that doesn't mean you've not made the bed you find yourself lying in.

Modifié par klarabella, 31 août 2010 - 08:05 .

[Miri1984]

Really I don't think there's any doubt at all that Brand is FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN. But that's the beauty of the character. There are so many things we'd do differently because we want to be happy, but I think Brand is a special case - she's a Reaver in the true sense of the word, she doesn't realise she's causing herself emotional pain in the same way she suppresses physical pain - on some levels she craves it. Anders recognises that - as you can see from the conversation he has with her after they find out about Bryce.



I very much doubt I would like her very much if I ever met her, but I think I understand why she does the supremely stupid things she does. I wouldn't have spared Loghain. I wouldn't have married Teagan. I probably would have cheated on Teagan with Anders. But I'm not Brand .

[Galagraphia]

klarabella wrote...




But without Bryce there would be no trouble.

There would be a Crow problem anyway, problem that led Brand to Redcliffe. And Bryce is probably one of those really good things Brand did in her life.




And I don't think that to cheat on Teagan would have been good simply because she didn't love him, I support Brand in this. Teagan was a good man and he deserved respect at very least. But that she cheated on Anders after that really makes me feel bad. Like the feelings of the man she loves mean less to her than Teagan's.

[MelRedux]

klarabella wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...
I have a different take on things than Lady D - the reason everything is so horrible is because there really WASN'T anything Brand could have done differently - aside from sparing Loghain - that would have made her life better.

Oh, there is. She could have had Loghain executed for treason, she could have put Anora on the throne alone (even with Loghain executed), she could have said no to Teagan, she could have resigned as the Warden Commander, she could have cheated on Teagan (like I would have expected anyway, don't understand why she didn't) and been in a relationship with Anders for years (which could have lend her more strength), she could have not cheated on Anders right now, she could have been less ignorant and blurted Fiona's secret out in front of Alistair like that, she could have treated Alistair better (so that he might have trusted her more and told her about his observations earlier and definitely not in a blaze of fury), she could have refused the relationship with Anders for the same reasons she refused it before (so he would have seen no reason to keep silent about Bryce's magic), she could have refused Zevran's contract, she could have stayed at Amaranthine, she could..., she could..., she could...

Basically I agree with LD, I don't understand Brand. I started to doubt her when she forgot to supervise Alistair's healing (How long did he run around with a broken jaw? Two days, because Anders wanted to punish him?) and began to dislike her when she snuggled with her men in the carriage in front of Alistair. (Oh please, you can be that ignorant!) Oh, and I hated her when she told a broken Alistair that it was all his fault. (Take a knife and slit his throat already, can't be worse than what he's been going through!)

As you said, it's a personality thing.

This is just a big case of "should have would have could have".  I look back on my own life, and there a TON of things I COULD have done.  And if I did do all those things, I COULD HAVE everything I've ever wanted, and lived the perfect little life somewhere.

But I didn't.

And looking back, and can't even give you a good reason why.  For example: Why did I party so much in college, and not focus more on my studies?  I don't know...it was fun?  Was it stupid?  YES.  Am I human? YES.  I don't think anyone can be blamed or faulted for "should have would have could have".

[jenncgf]

Okay, so you don't like that Surely's presenting a particularly heavy story.  It IS exhausting, and it IS hard to be part of something that's just fundamentally hard.  And it's especially hard to see someone in the process of screwing up.  I think that *might* just be the point. 

If it's too hard, or it's too heavy, take a break from the story already instead of telling Surely what Brand should have done or list out what she did wrong, sheesh.    I mean, we get that Brand isn't perfect at this point.  And everybody has their own personal line of what they can live with and what they can't.  But I honestly think we've gone past 'constructive criticism' and delved into 'make the author feel like crap for writing her story' territory.  Rehashing what you don't like about the story repeatedly and qualifying it with "but what I mean to say is ..." isn't going to help Surely. 

[SurelyForth]

Jumbled thoughts before I begin my work day:

Brand sparing Loghain and making Anora solo queen is a condition of the story. Without those two things happening, and Alistair being exiled, everything would be different (and I'm going to write that story, too, eventually).

Miri has it right when she says Brand is fundamentally broken. I just touched on it, but the night Howe attacked she went from being a bright, talented minx to stabbing men in the face while she tripped over the corpses of her friends/family and the suddenness and the harshness caused a fundamental shift in who she was at the core. Without her family, all she had left was the ability to kill things good. It took her months to open up to Leliana and Alistair, and then she went pretty quickly from loner to theseguysaremynewfamily (which is another reason Alistair leaving and everyone disbanding pushed her towards Teagan, who was familiar).

As for the reaver thing, also something that's perfect and intentional. One of the things she does for the people she cares about is takes their blows for them. When she's not having The Worst Week Ever (and she's had two so far), she can definitely handle it. Now that she has her own pain, and Alistair's pain (and Fiona's pain) it's too much. She needed Anders to kick her and say "Dude, it's too much" because it's been years since she's been pushed up against her limits and she's pretty horrible at knowing what those are at the best of times.

The Teagan thing is regrettable (like I said, a definite mistake) but also, I think, distressingly normal. As for cheating on him, there are a several of reasons she didn't. One, she owned the mistake (like she did with sparing Loghain). Two, she respected him and didn't want to humiliate him. Three, she respects Anders and wouldn't want him to settle for being on the side. Four, she didn't want to lose Anders as a friend or have him halfway. Five, what the hell would happen if people found out a noblewoman was actually screwing a mage behind her very popular husband's back? I can't imagine anything good, unless said mage was the Hero of Ferelden. Most importantly, she didn't want to risk either losing Bryce or illegitimizing him.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 31 août 2010 - 01:33 .

[Galagraphia]

Hey, this is a great idea, Surely: Anders must wake up another Archdemon, kill it and become a Hero of Ferelden #2! ))) I'm kidding, I'm sorry if my previous comments made you feel uncomfortable, it's because I'm too much into your story and care for the characters and I want my bloody happy ending! ))) And I also want to stab Fergus' wife, I don't like her XD

[Sarah1281]

What I want to know is...why did everyone insist on going into so much detail about how Brand knew the Hopewells during dinner? It seemed really uncalled for. Maybe the couple in question are just selfish ****s but Anders was clearly encouraging it and you'd think someone else (like maybe her brother) would have put a stop to it at some point.

[jenncgf]

I think Anders brought it up in the mindset of "hehehe, let's look at baby pictures" and didn't realize the mess that was forthcoming.

[MelRedux]

jenncgf wrote...

I think Anders brought it up in the mindset of "hehehe, let's look at baby pictures" and didn't realize the mess that was forthcoming.

plus, Anders probably thought it was kinda hawt.

[SurelyForth]

Galagraphia wrote...

Hey, this is a great idea, Surely: Anders must wake up another Archdemon, kill it and become a Hero of Ferelden #2! ))) I'm kidding, I'm sorry if my previous comments made you feel uncomfortable, it's because I'm too much into your story and care for the characters and I want my bloody happy ending! ))) And I also want to stab Fergus' wife, I don't like her XD

Except then Anders would be dead! Unless he can recruit Garavel and have him surreptitiously take the final blow...

And no worries, you didn't make me uncomfortable at all! I just know that there's a lot of things that I haven't really delved that deeply into for whatever reason (mostly because there is a ton of backstory here and I'm too *words* to do it full justice without making Undertow the longest fanfic ever). Infidelity is going to come up a couple of times in the chapter I'm currently writing (for obvious reasons) so it's something I'm thinking about.

Sarah1281 wrote...

What I want to know is...why did everyone insist on going into so much detail about how Brand knew the Hopewells during dinner? It seemed really uncalled for. Maybe the couple in question are just selfish ****s but Anders was clearly encouraging it and you'd think someone else (like maybe her brother) would have put a stop to it at some point.

It's sort of what Anders and Fergus do when they're together and Brand is usually not hung up on stuff like that. She really doesn't care about what happened, nor does she care that everyone knows about it (it is a bit like silly baby photos to her). She just wasn't in the mood and they didn't pick up on that and Anders thought it might even cheer her up in the end (because why wouldn't reliving such a conquest cheer her up?).

So Anders wasn't thinking about the baggage they came with it, basically.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 31 août 2010 - 03:17 .

[Galagraphia]

SurelyForth wrote...





Except then Anders would be dead! Unless he can recruit Garavel and have him surreptitiously take the final blow...

Morrigan will return soon, maybe she would like to have another cute demon baby? ))) Yes, I won't stop writing rediculous things here, people are too serious today XD

[jenncgf]

Galagraphia wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...





Except then Anders would be dead! Unless he can recruit Garavel and have him surreptitiously take the final blow...

Morrigan will return soon, maybe she would like to have another cute demon baby? ))) Yes, I won't stop writing rediculous things here, people are too serious today XD

Well, demon baby #1 IS at the age to start kindergarten.  She'll be home with no babies... 

[Yankee23]

Since I have started Undertow, I have been struggling with leaving you a comment. When I like an author's work I feel it is the least I can do to let them know. Since I lean towards the anti-Brand camp I didn't know how to tell you "your writing was excellent, but I don't like your main character" without seeming like I was picking apart your story, which is by no means my intention. In light of the current discussion I am going to give it a shot.

I think my biggest problem is her total insensitivity to Alistair. (I am aware that rabid fangirlism is coloring my view) Although I understand the events at the Landsmeet broke Brand as much as it did Alistair, she has been surrounded by people who care deeply for her for years. She has had Fergus, Anders, Fiona, Teagan and Bryce. She has had the support to move on and heal but has not taken advantage of it. She is sincerely attempting to help Alistair, but he is expected to just go with it. He is by no means blameless, but he has spent the time since the landsmeet alone, with no support and often at the bottom of a bottle, unlike Brand. There are so many places in this fic where I feel that Brand's happy life (happy at least from an outside view - affectionate boyfriend loving son, etc...) is flaunted in front of Alistair. He was essentially pulled from his stupor and confronted with the demons that have been hauting him for years, but is given very little understanding, support or time to adjust. And then she tells him on the docks that she doesn't know if she ever loved him...and poor Anders and the Hopewell thing...aaaah!! "She's broken" only goes so far when she ignores her chances to heal, she is pushing my sympathy and understanding beyond its limits.

I was never under the impression that any of this was unintentional because it was written so well or that you wanted us to like Brand. I will continue to read as you update because of your writing talent and the emotions this fic stirs in me and apparently many other readers, good or bad. Hopefully, what you will take to heart from the comments posted after the last update is the fact that your fic has had an effect on many readers...and imo, that is a pretty big compliment.

Modifié par Yankee23, 31 août 2010 - 05:40 .

[Addai]

I thought about your comment a while, Yankee, but again I have to say- what is Brand supposed to do? Yes, Alistair is in a crisis, but thus far Brand has been chased by assassins for most of the story and also seen her son nearly die. It is just massive bad timing that Alistair walks back into her life when it is in such turmoil. Though this has also been part of his path back- he is able to put his sword to a noble purpose again and does have people around him who care about him again. The fact that he didn't before, after the Landsmeet, was all of his own choosing. He did not have to leave the Wardens. It does him no good for Brand not to be honest with him, though I agree she takes a hammer to things.

It really is a confluence of bad timing and people's weaknesses coming out in the worst times and ways. I do have a feeling things are going to work out, at least a little. Right, SF? *whistles*

Modifié par Addai67, 01 septembre 2010 - 03:37 .

[nos_astra]

Oops, accident.

Edit: I wanted to post another comment and answer the question what Brand is supposed to do and other things that don't really add up. I can't post it, though I probably spent hours writing it. Criticism is never easy to write, especially not in a language that is not your own ... and it's even harder to read, I suppose.

So let me focus on the question:
Brand could do many things, some things would hurt her but they also would allow her to heal.
She could stop running from problems and face reality.
She could stop living in her own little bubble.
She could ask for advice.
She could share her fears.
She could accept and acknowledge that she is not going to change the world.
She could decide what is important to her and what she will have to let go.
She could think before she acts.
She could act instead of reacting.
She should start to show responsibility for the things that are her responsibility.
She should stop being influenced by others so easily.
She should stand up for herself, and not only when she needs sex or distraction, dammit!

She should stop using people. That's an almost sociopathic streak in her.
She used Alistair during the Blight. She uses him now to lessen her feelings of guilt.
She used Teagan for obvious reasons.
She is using Fiona, so Alistair might be someone else's responsibility.
She is using Anders as her partner in crime, willing to suspend reality for a time, at the cost of hurting him.

Modifié par klarabella, 01 septembre 2010 - 03:40 .

[Yankee23]

Addai67 wrote...

I thought about your comment a while, Yankee, but again I have to say- what is Brand supposed to do? Yes, Alistair is in a crisis, but thus far Brand has been chased by assassins for most of the story and also seen her son nearly die. It is just massive bad timing that Alistair walks back into her life when it is in such turmoil. Though this has also been part of his path back- he is able to put his sword to a noble purpose again and does have people around him who care about him again. The fact that he didn't before, after the Landsmeet, was all of his own choosing. He did not have to leave the Wardens. It does him no good for Brand not to be honest with him, though I agree she takes a hammer to things.

It really is a confluence of bad timing and people's weaknesses coming out in the worst times and ways. I do have a feeling things are going to work out, at least a little. Right, SF? *whistles*

Actually, I don't really disagree with anything that you said, but that doesn't mean I have to like her and if you were to agree with some of the things I pointed out that doesn't mean you can't have sympathy for her situation. Surely lays it all out there, imo, in a way that doesn't necessarily try to influence the reader's opinion of the character. I think that's one of the things I like most about this fic. I am not a huge "fan" of Brand, moslty due to her actions/choices and not because I don't think she could be likeable, quite the opposite, in fact. My issues are personal ones about the character, but Surely does a such great job with this fic that it doesn't bother me that I don't like her, I still want to keep reading and see how it all plays out. 
 
Edited for spelling.

Modifié par Yankee23, 01 septembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[jenncgf]

klarabella wrote...

<insert lots of stuff that Klarabella said Brand could do differently just a couple posts ago>

So...what you're saying is you want a completely different Warden, and therefore a completely different story? 

Brand is a flawed heroine.  As it turns out, she's got a lot of flaws.  Surely's writing realism here; she's never said that Brand is a paragon of virtue and that she's not fighting her own nature.  She's taken an imperfect person and put her into some impossible situations.  Being that our fair Warden is not perfect, she makes a lot of imperfect decisions and yes, frequently that makes things worse.  That is where much of the conflict/drama/tragedy of the story comes into play.

If Brand was perfect in this setting, and did all those things you mentioned, there wouldn't be much of a story left to read.  It would certainly not hold the same level of fascination that it currently does.

[Sandtigress]

klarabella wrote...

Oops, accident.

Edit: I wanted to post another comment and answer the question what Brand is supposed to do and other things that don't really add up. I can't post it, though I probably spent hours writing it. Criticism is never easy to write, especially not in a language that is not your own ... and it's even harder to read, I suppose.
<snip>

You are essentially saying then that you want Brand to not act like Brand, and for Brand to not do things that Brand has already done, and for plot devices to not be plot devices for this story.  In other words, you want to read a completely different story.  It might be in your best interest then to go do so, and stop reading a story that is apparently making you quite upset and in a rather irrational way.  Spending hours of one's precious time to write a critique that esentially says "I hate this story and everything about it and I don't know why I'm reading it because it makes me incredibly angry" multiple times just doesn't sound like a smart use of time, especially when no one is forcing you to be here.

I think most authors, Surely included, are up for constructive criticism.  We all want to know what we could do better in the story that we are writing.  And I think most of us are fine hearing "I like what character A did but character B is such a jerk!"  Question motives, question actions, talk about what you'd like to see in the future.  All of that is fine.  But when your crticism boils down to "I hate even the basic story that you have created" you're not offering anything constructive to say.  For you to spend hours on such a critique is a waste of your time and all of ours, and does nothing to further anything.

You are, of course, entitled to your opnion.  There are stories I hate reading too.  And if someone asks me about my opinion of that story, sure, I'll share it.  But I think you've gone beyond sharing at this point, and are relentlessly beating a dead horse.  You aren't going to be able to make any of the things you want to see happen happen by griping about it.  Maybe Brand will take the path you want, maybe she'll take another.  That's Surely's role to decide, not yours.  You, as the reader, have the right to question motive, question realism, and speculate about the future.  You can even make sugestions for what you might like to see.  But you do not have the right to decide what direction this story takes, because you are not the author.  Make your opinion known, fine, but at some point enough is enough.  I thikLa

So get mad about what Brand is doing/does/did, but don't try to tell an author what her characters should do.  They are hers to deal with.  And if the story makes you that mad, then I politely suggest, for your own sake, that you just stop reading.