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[Willowhugger]

Basically a discussion of whether or not King Calian was going to betray Fereldan in order to become Emperor of Orlais.

Here's the letters in question.

To his Majesty, King Cailan of Ferelden:

My Warden-Commander assures me that we face a Blight. This thing threatens us both, and we must work together to fight it, lest it devour all. Our two nations have not had a happy history, but that is all it is -- history. It is the future that is at stake now. Let us put aside our father's disagreements so that we may secure a future for both our countries.

My Chevaliers stand ready and will accompany the Grey Wardens of Orlais to Ferelden. At your word the might of Orlais will march to reinforce the Ferelden forces.

Sincerely,
Empress Celene I
-- "An official letter from Empress Celene I of Orlais to 
King Cailan of Ferelden.''

Your Majesty,

My men will arrive as soon as possible to bolster your forces. Maker willing, this Blight will be ended before it has begun. Cailan, I beseech you, as your uncle, not to join the Grey Wardens on the Field. You cannot afford to take this risk. Ferelden cannot afford it. Let me remind you again that you do not have an heir. Your death--and it pains me even to think of it--would plunge Ferelden into chaos.

And yes, perhaps when this is over you will allow me to bring up  the subject of your heir. While a son from both the Theirin and Mac Tir lines would unite Ferelden like no other, we must accept that perhaps this can never be. The queen approaches her thirtieth year and her ability to give you a child lessens with each passing month. I submit toyou again that it might be time to put Anora aside. We parted harshly the last time I spoke of this, but it has been a full year since then and nothing has changed.

Please, nephew, consider my words, and Andraste's grace be with you.

--A letter from Arl Eamon to King Cailan

Very disturbing, eh?

(This letter appears to have been crumpled then carefully smoothed
out and folded again)

Cailan,

The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course?
The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.

-- "A note written in an uncharacteristally familiar tone from
Empress Celene to King Cailan

I think Calian was planning to marry her, but he was conflicted about it.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 01 mai 2010 - 11:05 .

[Aisynia]

Loghain was in complete agreement with you. I think Cailan was at least considering it.

[Chuvvy]

I think it might be a good idea. Not just because Anora is a snake, I mean she married him on month after he became king. And she's ready to marry Alastair or you before his body's cold. And she betrays you the second she thinks she'd have a better chance of becoming queen with Loghain.

Modifié par Slidell505, 01 mai 2010 - 11:43 .

[Willowhugger]

Slidell505 wrote...

I think it might be a good idea. Not just because Anora is a snake, I mean she married him on month after he became king. And she's ready to marry Alastair or you before his body's cold. And she betrays you the second she thinks she'd have a better chance of becoming queen with Loghain.

I'm not sure Celene is better.

Also, I believe Dragon Age: Origins covers almost a year's time.

[sleepingbelow]

Slidell505 wrote...

I think it might be a good idea. Not just because Anora is a snake, I mean she married him on month after he became king. And she's ready to marry Alastair or you before his body's cold. And she betrays you the second she thinks she'd have a better chance of becoming queen with Loghain.

If this interpretation is correct, wouldn't these letters show that Cailan is a snake?  Like, on a way, way bigger scale?  And yeah, remarrying in less than a year would probably be rough, but it is to end a civil war.  Also, she betrays you at the Landsmeet only if you go with the stated intention of crowning Alistair.  In that case, it is not just a better chance of staying queen, it is the only chance.  You've told her as much.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 02 mai 2010 - 12:20 .

[Medivan]

"She is her father's daughter"



This, I believe while she seems very cold hearted, that she in her mind had Ferelden at the front of her thoughts just like Loghain did.

[GreatSword127]

I have a question, how would this be batraying Feralden? It would be the combining of two great countries into one.

[Chuvvy]

sleepingbelow wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

I think it might be a good idea. Not just because Anora is a snake, I mean she married him on month after he became king. And she's ready to marry Alastair or you before his body's cold. And she betrays you the second she thinks she'd have a better chance of becoming queen with Loghain.

If this interpretation is correct, wouldn't these letters show that Cailan is a snake?  Like, on a way, way bigger scale?  And yeah, remarrying in less than a year would probably be rough, but it is to end a civil war.  Also, she betrays you at the Landsmeet only if you go with the stated intention of crowning Alistair.  In that case, it is not just a better chance of staying queen, it is the only chance.  You've told her as much.

No she betrays you even if you don't talk to her. You have to say you'll suppprt her.
Cailan has the right idea uniting the nations, and I think what he's doing is more along the lines of a treaty. I think Cailan's a bit smarter than he lets on.

[GreatSword127]

Slidell505 wrote...

sleepingbelow wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

I think it might be a good idea. Not just because Anora is a snake, I mean she married him on month after he became king. And she's ready to marry Alastair or you before his body's cold. And she betrays you the second she thinks she'd have a better chance of becoming queen with Loghain.

If this interpretation is correct, wouldn't these letters show that Cailan is a snake?  Like, on a way, way bigger scale?  And yeah, remarrying in less than a year would probably be rough, but it is to end a civil war.  Also, she betrays you at the Landsmeet only if you go with the stated intention of crowning Alistair.  In that case, it is not just a better chance of staying queen, it is the only chance.  You've told her as much.

No she betrays you even if you don't talk to her. You have to say you'll suppprt her.
Cailan has the right idea uniting the nations, and I think what he's doing is more along the lines of a treaty. I think Cailan's a bit smarter than he lets on.

Agreed.

[sleepingbelow]

Well. The Warden's stated intention with Eamon was to put Alistair on the throne. So unless you tell her personally otherwise, your intention is publicly to dethrone her.

And we can argue that Cailan had the "right idea", but it doesn't change the fact that he would be throwing his current wife out the window. When I said "If this interpretation is correct," I meant the OP's. That Cailan's "treaty" is a marriage.

Anora might screw you over, a stranger she doesn't know from Adam, but if we believe the alternate interpretation, Cailan was about to get rid of Anora. Which would not have been neat or tidy. Yeah, it would have meant that he's a lot smarter than we thought he was.  Bhelen-smarter.  Anyway, IF you believe that interpretation.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 02 mai 2010 - 03:42 .

[Willowhugger]

I think Anora was very much a control freak.  But that doesn't equate to being evil.  Also, according to Wynne, the marriage was a happy one with Anora and Calian actually loving one another.  It's actually why she doesn't like Alistair all that much.  I had some dialogue with her that more or less says.  "I don't like marrying Alistair because he's the SPITTING IMAGE OF MY DEAD HUSBAND!  It's freaky."  Though she says it in a much more Anora-esque way.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 02 mai 2010 - 03:45 .

[ArawnNox]

Fereldens seem, to me, a nation of fiercely independent lords. The idea of answering to a higher power they don't respect is not, seemingly, in their blood. Thus, the civil war that Loghain causes when he declares himself regent. So, while, politically, on a grander scale, an alliance between Orlais and Ferelden would be a wise move, we're essentially talking about a nation that had been conquered making good with its former masters within a single lifetime. Not something easily overlooked.

Now, while Eamon was suggesting Cailan pass Anora aside, he wasn't really inferring that Cailan go chasing the Empress of Orlais. Both leaders are young (or at least it's implied) and progressive enough to put the conflicts of the past behind them. However, there is a large amount of "Old Guard" left in the Bannorn that would think differently.

The third letter certainly implies that feelings had been growing between Cailan and the Empress, I think they were ruling with their hearts and not with their heads.

In Anora's defense (and I can't believe I am), she's a very pragmatic ruler. She's not evil as there's very few instances of evil in the game (the arguments for/against Loghain are evidence of how open to interpretation the writing is). She's really looking out for the nation and that simply goes hand in hand with keeping herself on the throne. She's very politically minded and really, she's looking for the advantage in every situation.

That's off the topic, though.

Basically, it seems to me that Cailan and the Empress were developing feelings, Eamon's letter inferred that Cailan go for someone younger than Anora (the source of Cailan and Loghain's argument) and then it seems Loghain finds a letter written in a very familiar tone to Cailan from the Empress. Hmm... I wonder, given Loghain's hatred for Orlais, if this isn't what sparks his commitment to abandoning Cailan and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar.

[Willowhugger]

well I had Loghain with me in Return to Ostagar.



He FREAKS over it.

* Loghain: The cheating bastard!



* Wynne: Watch your mouth, Loghain Mac Tir, unless you have forgotten the company you now keep!



* Loghain: It's not my company I worry about, madam, but my former son-in-law's! Do you see the familiar tone with which the empress writes him, as if my daughter were not already his wife?



* Wynne: Cailan loved Anora with every ounce of his heart. It was plain for all to see. The only thing that ever stood between them was you.



* Loghain: Are you blind, old woman? The plot is plain as day within this letter! Love or no, Cailan was going to cast my daughter aside and wed himself to that ****, Celene. In a single vow, Orlais would claim all that they could never win by war! And what would Ferelden gain? Our fool of a king could strut about and call himself an emperor.



* Wynne: And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?



* Loghain: Peace? I would have thought your age might have granted more wisdom, madam. Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons.

[ArawnNox]

ahh so he was unaware of it. Thank you.

[Willowhugger]

I wish he'd been.



That would have made a lot of sense.

[Sarah1281]

I have a question, how would this be batraying Feralden? It would be the combining of two great countries into one.

No, it would be like an empire swallowing up a small nation that it had been ruling for decades ruthlessly and inefficiently until Loghain and Maric drove them out.

Loghain was in complete agreement with you. I think Cailan was at least considering it.

Since when is Loghain at all rational when it comes to the subject of Orlais? He seems to think a Cousland/dwarven/Dalish Warden could be secretly Orlesian. Maybe the city elf since I doubt he knows you're from their Alienage or the mage since you could easily have been an Orlesian one but he recognizes a Cousland and know that dwarves and Dalish don't care for human authority.



All of this is just one big conspiracy theory with no evidence to back it up. We have one letter from Celene talking about a permanent alliance. If Cailan is smart enough to pull off a real alliance and not just a no-attack agreement completely in Orlas' favor then he's not going to be stupid enough to think his little nation will benefit from losing its autonomy. Alliances back then didn't always equal marriage and if it did in this case, there would be plenty of Orlesian noblewomen he could marry that weren't the Empress or in line to succeed her.



Then there's Eamon's letter. Anora is in her mid-to-late twenties and there's no heir. He's obsessed with the Theirin bloodline and this makes him nervous. As Cailan being sterile means its the end of the bloodline, he assumes the problem is Anora and unless he wants another bastard like Alistair running around, Anora needs to be put aside for this. Cailan does not like this idea if their parting angrily the last time this was brought up is any indication. Anora is his friend who he may love and who he has known he was arranged to marry since they were children.



I don't think Cailan would dare 'put aside' Anora as long as her father was so powerful. He'd need to neuralize him in some way first and I can't believe Eamon never considered that. Eamon tentatively bringing the subject up again and prefacing it with a 'I know last time you didn't want to hear it but the clock is ticking' means he's uncertain of how it will be received. These two letters are not connected. Celene does not know about Eamon's or vice versa. Cailan has them in the same box because he only has one locked chest to store his important thngs in and the box also contains Maric's sword he wanted to end the Blight with. The reason both letters are there, I think, is to show peace with Orlais might have been possible w/out the Blight and Cailan's death (so the if only's would drive people crazy) and to hint that even putting Anora and Alistair on the throne so they'll have an heir might not guarentee that it will happen.



Then there's the third letter. That letter was not written as formal as the first, which was noted in the codex, but sounded to me more like a casual note between friends then lovers. They'd clearly been in communication quite a bit for the formal language to go out the window, at least on Celene's end. I really wish he had a letter Cailan had written that he'd yet to send to, well, anyone as that would give us more insight to his character but I suppose what we have will have to suffice.

[Herr Uhl]

GreatSword127 wrote...

I have a question, how would this be batraying Feralden? It would be the combining of two great countries into one.

Just like before the rebellion. Oh, how silly they were to part ways.

Orlais would be the dominant partner and the marriage would pretty much seal Celene as Empress of both Ferelden and Orlais as she sends of Cailan to play soldier somewhere.

[sleepingbelow]

Yeah, wow, I forgot about that line that Wynne has. "And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?"

I... I've been something of a Wynne apologist. But her suggesting that Cailan handing Fereldan over Orlais would be a good thing, to allow chevaliers to once again have free reign in the Bannorn... very few words can express my disgust.

[Sarah1281]

sleepingbelow wrote...

Yeah, wow, I forgot about that line that Wynne has. "And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?"
I... I've been something of a Wynne apologist. But her suggesting that Cailan handing Fereldan over Orlais would be a good thing, to allow chevaliers to once again have free reign in the Bannorn... very few words can express my disgust.

I know. It's almost like she didn't live through the rebellion...

[Willowhugger]

sleepingbelow wrote...

Yeah, wow, I forgot about that line that Wynne has. "And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?"
I... I've been something of a Wynne apologist. But her suggesting that Cailan handing Fereldan over Orlais would be a good thing, to allow chevaliers to once again have free reign in the Bannorn... very few words can express my disgust.

It's fun for being so wise, that Wynne consistently says the most boneheaded and unrealistic things about the world.

That comes, of course, from living in the Tower her entire life.

[Sarah1281]

That's another thing: why does everyone assume she's wise? Because she's old? Having a relationship lead to her son getting taken away so she warns you off whoever you're dating. She can't have a normal life as a mage and has given up trying over they years so she tells you the same. Very little 'wisdom' involved either way.

[ArawnNox]

She's more like a teacher, who's been there and seen that already and she tries to be helpful, as she sees it. It's not really "wisdom" as it is "experience". These two things are not the same.

Wynn's comments about Orlais and Ferelden do seem very very naive, even for her. I think she has a very rosy view of the world, I don't think she's really gone through as much hardship as she likes to pretend she has.

Wow... that was really harsh of me, and I like Wynn. O_O

[sleepingbelow]

Magical bosoms. They've got a hypnotic power.

But heck... yeah. I've always thought of her as the wise level headed one. After that last comment, I've been going back through her dialogue, trying to find something she said that I remember as really insightful...

I got nothing so far.

I'm going to play the Magical Bosoms card. Also, she has a very soothing voice.

[Sarah1281]

If you're looking for wise and insightful, I'd recommend staying away from her comments at the Gauntlet, her comments at Caladrius where she loses more approval for you telling her to shut up then for using blood magic to sacrifice the elves, and when she talks about your romantic relationships.