Wynne's an old, clucking biddy who assumes she knows everything. I find it difficult to believe that she knew Cailan so well, and that she was around him enough, to 'see' that he truly loved Anora. I, personally, don't think Cailan had any intention of marrying Celene, but Wynne is talking so much stupid in that one sentence that even if I had liked her before, it would have gone flying out the window. And I don't care much for Loghain, either.
Cailan strikes me as someone who doesn't want to be told what to do. He gets annoyed at Loghain when Loghain is setting up a battle plan that's supposed to keep Ferelden safe, and I doubt he'd take kindly to his uncle- who was lucky enough to marry for love- trying to tell him to put his wife aside. Sometimes I reckon he was talking to Celene simply to prove the point that he could negotiate successfully on his own.
I also wonder how much Anora knew about it. Pity we can't ask her.
King Calian and Orlais (Return to Ostagar Spoilers)
Débuté par
Willowhugger
, mai 01 2010 11:02
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#27
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 05:30
Willowhugger
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Wynne says some insightful things about Grey Wardens and sacrifice.
But she has like zero practical experience.
Yet, she's always TRYING to advise you.
But she has like zero practical experience.
Yet, she's always TRYING to advise you.
#28
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 05:34
Sarah1281
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She's trying to turn you into the perfect selfless martyr. That's not really insightful or practical, to me. She can't ask you to stop being a person and start being a legend and yet she seems to expect exactly that.Wynne says some insightful things about Grey Wardens and sacrifice.
#29
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 07:31
Willowhugger
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She's trying to turn you into the perfect selfless martyr. That's not really insightful or practical, to me. She can't ask you to stop being a person and start being a legend and yet she seems to expect exactly that.
True.
I think that Wynne is a gentle, kind, and good soul but damn if she's not a suffering martyr type.
#30
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 08:54
sleepingbelow
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Yeah, for the most part I still don't mind Wynne but I'm beginning to see it as a "Yes, grandma. Sure grandma. You got it," type of deal. She cracks some pretty good self-deprecating jokes. Keeps me from hating her.
I'll just take everything she says with a grain of salt. She been a lot more entertaining these past couple of hours of gameplay, just by reading the dialogue responses as sarcastic, even the ones she likes.
Anyway, my vote is still yes for this conspiracy theory. Or at least, "likely." The evidence is all circumstantial, but when you put it all together, it seems more and more probable. Not enough to convict, but certainly enough to warrant an investigation.
Empress, would you kindly have a seat, please?
I'll just take everything she says with a grain of salt. She been a lot more entertaining these past couple of hours of gameplay, just by reading the dialogue responses as sarcastic, even the ones she likes.
Anyway, my vote is still yes for this conspiracy theory. Or at least, "likely." The evidence is all circumstantial, but when you put it all together, it seems more and more probable. Not enough to convict, but certainly enough to warrant an investigation.
Empress, would you kindly have a seat, please?
Modifié par sleepingbelow, 02 mai 2010 - 09:09 .
#31
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 09:00
Apophis2412
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sleepingbelow wrote...
Anyway, my vote is still yes for this conspiracy theory. Or at least, "likely." The evidence is all circumstantial, but when you put it all together, it seems more and more probable. Not enough to convict, but certainly enough to warrant an investigation.
Empress, would you kindly have a seat, please?
The only problem I see that it none of the high-ranking nobles of Ferelden (Loghain, Bryce Cousland and Arl Eamon) would ever agree with Calain marrying Celene. At best the marriage would lead to civil war in Ferelden. At worst it would lead to another Orlesian occupation.
#33
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 03:20
Ashlag
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sleepingbelow wrote...
Doesn't mean he wouldn't try it.
I think the only reason he would have truely tried it would have been if he had actually be in love with Celene, which reading that one note, doesn't seem to be the case (at least on her end). Also, Cailin was only king for five years, right? Which is a long time, but I don't know if it is enough time for him to actually have gone to Orlais and fallen in love with Celene.
#34
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 03:37
sleepingbelow
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I believe Orlais has been courting Cailan with gifts since he was five years old, according to the end of The Stolen Throne. He may have been King for only five years, but they've been trying to woo him his entire life.
#35
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 03:45
Sarah1281
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Maric had to have known what they were up to, though, and not just allowed his son to be bribed so easily.sleepingbelow wrote...
I believe Orlais has been courting Cailan with gifts since he was five years old, according to the end of The Stolen Throne. He may have been King for only five years, but they've been trying to woo him his entire life.
#36
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 03:53
Tirigon
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Willowhugger wrote...
Cailan,
The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course?
The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.
-- "A note written in an uncharacteristally familiar tone from
Empress Celene to King Cailan
I think Calian was planning to marry her, but he was conflicted about it.
And what makes you think that? A "permanent alliance" could be achieved by a marriage, that´s true, but nothing really points at that.
#37
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 04:04
Bl1nder
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I don't understand why everyone assumes they were talking about marriage, what a woman sends a man a letter in a friendly tone and it's automaticly love? There are plenty of ways to make a "permanent" alliance, not the least of which is marrying children of the houses toggeter. hell CONNOR is a good choice for that, considering who his mother is
#38
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 04:07
sleepingbelow
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Bl1nder wrote...
hell CONNOR is a good choice for that, considering who his mother is
Not disregarding the rest of what you said, but Connor isn't a member of the Theirin bloodline.
#39
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 04:08
Bl1nder
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Point, but under the circumstances as there is no royal heir, connor is the son of the King's uncle, which puts him rather high in the general scheme of things, his mother is Orlaisian which in turn assures Orlais that Connor is not "tainted" by Ferelden influecesleepingbelow wrote...
Bl1nder wrote...
hell CONNOR is a good choice for that, considering who his mother is
Not disregarding the rest of what you said, but Connor isn't a member of the Theirin bloodline.
#40
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 04:10
sleepingbelow
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Right, you're right, for some reason I was thinking you meant making Connor heir to Fereldan, which you weren't saying at all. Brain fart.
Maric is the coolest cat in all of Dragon Age, but I think by his own admission he sort of sucked when it came to watching after his own son. What you say is a good point though.
Sarah1281 wrote...
Maric had to have known what they were up to, though, and not just allowed his son to be bribed so easily.
Maric is the coolest cat in all of Dragon Age, but I think by his own admission he sort of sucked when it came to watching after his own son. What you say is a good point though.
Modifié par sleepingbelow, 02 mai 2010 - 04:13 .
#41
Guest_Massamies_*
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 04:11
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The letters being in same place is no proof, only person in game who would probably spread around letters to different spots according who the letter came from would be Sandal (EDIT: Maybe Mad Hermit would have also put the letters from uncle and the empress to different tree stumps). Cailan was uncharasterically familiar to all player characters. He probably asked Celene to drop formalities in some of his previous letters to her. The letters are meant to be seen only by monarchs and their possible scribes if they use them, so they are free to write as informally as they wish if both agree to it. Also Celene was crowned between final chapter and epilogue of the Calling novel, so she is getting closer to 40, most likely married already if she is planning to have children. Also Cailan dumping Anora due to infertility and marrying 40 year old woman would ****** off even those who want Anora dumped due to infertility.
Modifié par Massamies, 02 mai 2010 - 04:45 .
#42
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 04:16
Bl1nder
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Exactly, besides everyone assumes Fereldens would be pissed, I'm betting my empty pocket that Oralisian nobles wont be happy either, having a Ferelden Emperor even if he doesnt have as much power as the EmpressMassamies wrote...
The letters being in same place is no proof, only person in game who would probably spread around letters to different spots according who the letter came from would be Sandal. Cailan was uncharasterically familiar to all player characters. He probably asked Celene to drop formalities in some of his previous letters to her. The letters are meant to be seen only by monarchs and their possible scribes if they use them, so they are free to write as informally as they wish if both agree to it. Also Celene was crowned between final chapter and epilogue of the Calling novel, so she is getting closer to 40, most likely married already if she is planning to have children. Also Cailan dumping Anora due to infertility and marrying 40 year old woman would ****** off even those who want Anora dumped due to infertility.
#43
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 04:23
Sarah1281
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He doesn't really need to be a good father to realize the Orlesians might have an interest in killing/influencing his son and not letting him have any contact with them.sleepingbelow wrote...
Right, you're right, for some reason I was thinking you meant making Connor heir to Fereldan, which you weren't saying at all. Brain fart.Sarah1281 wrote...
Maric had to have known what they were up to, though, and not just allowed his son to be bribed so easily.
Maric is the coolest cat in all of Dragon Age, but I think by his own admission he sort of sucked when it came to watching after his own son. What you say is a good point though.
#44
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Posté 02 mai 2010 - 04:30
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After receiving Flemeth's prophecy that there will be blight in Ferelden soon but Maric won't live to see it, Maric had 25 years to learn about history of blights, and he must have realised that chance of Fereldan surviving Blight alone, and especially surviving in good enough condition to keep Orlesians out if they wanted to invade was practically zero. So trying to get Orlesians to help with the blight was probably Maric's idea. In the epilogue of the Calling he discusses or thinks how he is going to ****** off Loghain by trying to arrange meeting with the new Empress.
Modifié par Massamies, 02 mai 2010 - 04:44 .
#45
Guest_Massamies_*
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 04:42
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Ferelden has had only Theirin kings during its 400 year history. He believes that heritage to be essential for long term unity, and avoid possible post-Cailan/Anora succession war, so it makes sense that he doesn't believe Anora to be worth of ending the Theirin bloodline. And it is probably easier to replace Anora than replace whole royal bloodline.Elps wrote...
The letters give me more reason to distrust Arl Eamon & provide further grounds for Loghain's poisoning Eamon to keep him temporarily out of the picture.
We know from dialogue before the battle at Ostagar that Loghain and Cailan were arguing over Anora. So, there's Eamon, whose marriage to an Orlesian caused problems with Maric, and who, it can be inferred, has Orlesian sympathies, promoting setting Anora aside. This is despite the fact that Anora is a popular and capable ruler.
Modifié par Massamies, 02 mai 2010 - 04:50 .
#46
Guest_Massamies_*
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 04:44
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double post
Modifié par Massamies, 02 mai 2010 - 04:44 .
#47
Posté 02 mai 2010 - 05:08
Willowhugger
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It could be a younger Celene. But given Loghain's reaction, I think she could be unwed. Even if she isn't, the implications are that she can put aside any of her husbands.
#48
Guest_Elps_*
Posté 03 mai 2010 - 03:27
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Massamies wrote...
Ferelden has had only Theirin kings during its 400 year history. He believes that heritage to be essential for long term unity, and avoid possible post-Cailan/Anora succession war, so it makes sense that he doesn't believe Anora to be worth of ending the Theirin bloodline. And it is probably easier to replace Anora than replace whole royal bloodline.Elps wrote...
The letters give me more reason to distrust Arl Eamon & provide further grounds for Loghain's poisoning Eamon to keep him temporarily out of the picture.
We know from dialogue before the battle at Ostagar that Loghain and Cailan were arguing over Anora. So, there's Eamon, whose marriage to an Orlesian caused problems with Maric, and who, it can be inferred, has Orlesian sympathies, promoting setting Anora aside. This is despite the fact that Anora is a popular and capable ruler.
That doesn't make sense though when you recall that Eamon raised Alistair, in full knowledge of his parentage, so knows there is a Theirin heir. If Eamon was only worried about Cailan having a child he could have paraded any number of women in front of Cailan in the hopes of having offspring. Illegitimate children don't seem to be much of a problem for Ferelden's monarchy.
#49
Posté 03 mai 2010 - 01:26
Orchomene
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I too think that Eamon is not the "good" guy that he appears to be.
It's said from the beginning that his military and political power is very important in Ferelden.
Also, his army is not present at Ostagar, this way less suffering from the conflict with the Blight.
I don't think that he thought that Cailan would die or even lose the battle, but that he may keep his army in good position in case there are internal tensions in Ferelden after the Blight.
I think the letters just give more information from the other side of the internal tensions in Ferelden : many high placed people in Ferelden thought that the Blight was not a real one and that the real battle would be after Ostagar.
That's why Eamon's army was absent.
That's why Loghain left the battle keeping an army in good state.
That's why Howe was playing in his side by taking the Cousland castle.
Even Cailan thought it was not a real blight.
So everything seems to us badly decided because everybody has under estimated the situation.
I don't think there was something between Celene and Cailan.
First, they can't possibly have met often.
Then, the empress of Orlais, knowing the harshness of Orlais political habits, would have already been eliminated by someone if she let her be driven by emotions.
It's said from the beginning that his military and political power is very important in Ferelden.
Also, his army is not present at Ostagar, this way less suffering from the conflict with the Blight.
I don't think that he thought that Cailan would die or even lose the battle, but that he may keep his army in good position in case there are internal tensions in Ferelden after the Blight.
I think the letters just give more information from the other side of the internal tensions in Ferelden : many high placed people in Ferelden thought that the Blight was not a real one and that the real battle would be after Ostagar.
That's why Eamon's army was absent.
That's why Loghain left the battle keeping an army in good state.
That's why Howe was playing in his side by taking the Cousland castle.
Even Cailan thought it was not a real blight.
So everything seems to us badly decided because everybody has under estimated the situation.
I don't think there was something between Celene and Cailan.
First, they can't possibly have met often.
Then, the empress of Orlais, knowing the harshness of Orlais political habits, would have already been eliminated by someone if she let her be driven by emotions.
#50
Posté 03 mai 2010 - 02:16
Sarah1281
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Idon't know about that. Duncan did pass on a message that Eamon was reminding him he could be there within a week but Cailan wouldn't hear of it. He claimed this was so Eamon wouldn't stea the glory but he could just not want to have the Anora conversation again.Also, his army is not present at Ostagar, this way less suffering from the conflict with the Blight.
I don't think that he thought that Cailan would die or even lose the battle, but that he may keep his army in good position in case there are internal tensions in Ferelden after the Blight.
