When it comes to national politics, Wynne, like most mages, would be pretty clueless. Remember, the mages are outcasts from society, cut off and live beyond it, locked up in their towers, many since they were extremely young. Mages really aren't very nationalistic or patriotic, there is little reason for them to be. The Chantry rules them, not the king. So really, whether Orlais or Ferelden nobility occupy the country, it makes little difference to your average mage, really. Since the Chantry runs their lives and fates, the ruler or fate of a nation really matters none, one way or another.
Thus, in this, Wynne can be forgiven for being an ignorant moron in terms of the alleged "peace" deal. She may have lived through the occupation, but like most mages, probably didn't notice the difference much like your average free Ferelden did.
As far as Cailan goes, marrying the Empress and uniting Orlais and Ferelden into two would have been national suicide. Ferelden is a very wild, loosely organized, backwards country, Orlais is the superpower of it's time. Ferelden would be swallowed, it's culture, heritage, history, language, and uniqueness would vanish, replaced by Orlesian values and society. It would be ruled from Val Royeaux, and not Denerim, because there's no way in hell that Cailan could have matched power and political prowess with Celene.
The real question is, was that the nature of the "peace" agreement? Loghain thinks so, but let's face it, Loghain isn't exactly the most rational, unbiased voice of reason when it comes to anything Orlesian. He sees plots, conspiracies, and boogeymen everywhere if you mention the name. We have three letters that are amigious enough to draw any conclusion, really.
Eamon's letter shows clearly that Cailan did have some spine, as he was angry enough at the suggestion of ditching Anora that he refused to speak to his own uncle, one of his last blood relatives, for over a year for merely suggesting it. The familiar tone of Celene's letter...that could be taken anyway. Maybe she was in the process of trying to seduce him, using the promise of chevalier aid as a cover for bigger ambitions. Whether or not she would have been successful is the question. Cailan, from everything I've seen, was pretty much set on Anora as his queen, and really wasn't as bothered about the heir question as Eamon was.
King Calian and Orlais (Return to Ostagar Spoilers)
Débuté par
Willowhugger
, mai 01 2010 11:02
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#52
Guest_Massamies_*
Posté 03 mai 2010 - 02:55
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Elps wrote...
Massamies wrote...
Ferelden has had only Theirin kings during its 400 year history. He believes that heritage to be essential for long term unity, and avoid possible post-Cailan/Anora succession war, so it makes sense that he doesn't believe Anora to be worth of ending the Theirin bloodline. And it is probably easier to replace Anora than replace whole royal bloodline.Elps wrote...
The letters give me more reason to distrust Arl Eamon & provide further grounds for Loghain's poisoning Eamon to keep him temporarily out of the picture.
We know from dialogue before the battle at Ostagar that Loghain and Cailan were arguing over Anora. So, there's Eamon, whose marriage to an Orlesian caused problems with Maric, and who, it can be inferred, has Orlesian sympathies, promoting setting Anora aside. This is despite the fact that Anora is a popular and capable ruler.
That doesn't make sense though when you recall that Eamon raised Alistair, in full knowledge of his parentage, so knows there is a Theirin heir. If Eamon was only worried about Cailan having a child he could have paraded any number of women in front of Cailan in the hopes of having offspring. Illegitimate children don't seem to be much of a problem for Ferelden's monarchy.
I think it is normal to suggest divorce before cheating. If Cailan is suggested divorce and he would prefer getting bastard, he is smart enough to come up with by himself, but I think bastard would have been too inglorious for him. Alistair was not recognized openly by Maric so that is issue too. Queen consorts only official duty is giving birth to an heir so if that doesn't work out, suggesting annulment of marriage is only normal.
#53
Posté 03 mai 2010 - 02:56
Orchomene
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Sarah1281 wrote...
Idon't know about that. Duncan did pass on a message that Eamon was reminding him he could be there within a week but Cailan wouldn't hear of it. He claimed this was so Eamon wouldn't stea the glory but he could just not want to have the Anora conversation again.
Eamon could have lied. There is no reason for the absence of Eamon's army since Redcliff is not very far from Ostagar compared to the Denerim's troops.
The situation of Ferelden and Orlais reminds me a lot of History of Brittany and France (see b.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britanny ) and the issues there were in Brittany between noble families (Montfort/
of Blois) and war of succession.
This ended by the annexion of Brittany by wedding of Anne of Brittany and two kings of France.
#54
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Posté 03 mai 2010 - 02:57
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Denerim is more densely populated, shorter mobilization time.
Modifié par Massamies, 03 mai 2010 - 02:58 .
#55
Posté 03 mai 2010 - 05:56
Sarah1281
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Lied about what? How fast the troops could arrive? I don't think that's any great secret. His willingess to come to Ostagar? As Brycle and Howe exposit in the HN origin, if the King asks for troops, you give him troops...even if he's a moron. Otherwise, you'll be involved in a political battle and since everyone else sent troops, he wouldn't have any allies. The only reason he could have for not showing up when Cailan wanted him to is if he knew that Cailan would die, which not even Loghain was positive about until after the PC shows up and we can be reasonably sure Loghain and Eamon weren't in cahoots given how things played out between them.Orchomene wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
Idon't know about that. Duncan did pass on a message that Eamon was reminding him he could be there within a week but Cailan wouldn't hear of it. He claimed this was so Eamon wouldn't stea the glory but he could just not want to have the Anora conversation again.
Eamon could have lied. There is no reason for the absence of Eamon's army since Redcliff is not very far from Ostagar compared to the Denerim's troops.
The situation of Ferelden and Orlais reminds me a lot of History of Brittany and France (see b.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britanny ) and the issues there were in Brittany between noble families (Montfort/
of Blois) and war of succession.
This ended by the annexion of Brittany by wedding of Anne of Brittany and two kings of France.
And regardless of whether or not Eamon wante to be there, when Dunan brought it up Cailan made it perfectly clear he didn't want him there. His 'Eamon just wants in on the glory' reasoning is oh so very weak but their feud over the heir issue which Eamon recently brought up again in the letter makes more sense, especally as things were going so well Cailan might not have thought Eamon's troops were necessary.
#56
Posté 03 mai 2010 - 09:53
jpdipity
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I don't think that there is enough evidence to suggest that Cailan was going to marry/had plans to pursue marriage or was even involved in any kind of romantic relationship with Celene.
He dismissed Eamon's suggestion to put Anora aside which suggests that Cailan has some loyalty and/or deep feelings for her despite that their relationship has failed to produce any heirs. Having an heir is clearly an important issue and would not be disregarded lightly.
Celene is 10 years older than Cailan. Heirs would once again become an issue with Celene.
The familiar tone of the letter simply suggests that they have built a rapport with one another and have likely been talking for some time. It could very easily be a friendship. No words of endearment are used in the letter - it simply is informal which means that they are now close enough to drop formalities.
The letters show to me a man who is ready to step out of the shadow of his father and was growing weary of Loghain & Anora's oversight (evidenced by the arguments).
Cailan grew up with Orlais ambassadors bearing gifts and books during a time period that Maric clearly was trying to negotiate or come to terms with Orlais - even allowing Wardens back in and bearing a child a by one. Cailan was born after the occupation and likely does not have the prejudices and fears that Loghain or others involved in the rebellion hold. He is living in the larger-than-death shadow of his father and is clearly looking for ways to build his own legacy. A strong bond between Orlais and Fereldan would certainly help to forge that legacy along with a "glorious" battle against the darkspawn - Cailan would have earned his own way in history if he was able to accomplish such feats.
Furthermore, Eamon's character is simple: Therin blood needs to be on the throne, period. It is a critical issue for him. Cailan must have an heir. If Cailan falls with no heirs, Alistair must become king. There doesn't appear to me to be anything other than that going on. Most of the characters have a single thing that is utterly unacceptable for them - Wynne has blood magic, Alistair has Loghain, Leilana has the Ashes etc... Eamon's crisis is Therin blood must be maintained on the throne.
He dismissed Eamon's suggestion to put Anora aside which suggests that Cailan has some loyalty and/or deep feelings for her despite that their relationship has failed to produce any heirs. Having an heir is clearly an important issue and would not be disregarded lightly.
Celene is 10 years older than Cailan. Heirs would once again become an issue with Celene.
The familiar tone of the letter simply suggests that they have built a rapport with one another and have likely been talking for some time. It could very easily be a friendship. No words of endearment are used in the letter - it simply is informal which means that they are now close enough to drop formalities.
The letters show to me a man who is ready to step out of the shadow of his father and was growing weary of Loghain & Anora's oversight (evidenced by the arguments).
Cailan grew up with Orlais ambassadors bearing gifts and books during a time period that Maric clearly was trying to negotiate or come to terms with Orlais - even allowing Wardens back in and bearing a child a by one. Cailan was born after the occupation and likely does not have the prejudices and fears that Loghain or others involved in the rebellion hold. He is living in the larger-than-death shadow of his father and is clearly looking for ways to build his own legacy. A strong bond between Orlais and Fereldan would certainly help to forge that legacy along with a "glorious" battle against the darkspawn - Cailan would have earned his own way in history if he was able to accomplish such feats.
Furthermore, Eamon's character is simple: Therin blood needs to be on the throne, period. It is a critical issue for him. Cailan must have an heir. If Cailan falls with no heirs, Alistair must become king. There doesn't appear to me to be anything other than that going on. Most of the characters have a single thing that is utterly unacceptable for them - Wynne has blood magic, Alistair has Loghain, Leilana has the Ashes etc... Eamon's crisis is Therin blood must be maintained on the throne.
Modifié par jpdipity, 03 mai 2010 - 10:02 .
#57
Posté 03 mai 2010 - 10:19
Sarah1281
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Leliana's stance on the ashes isn't nearly on the same level as, hardened, she can get over it. WYNNE and the ashes, however...Most of the characters have a single thing that is utterly unacceptable for them - Wynne has blood magic, Alistair has Loghain, Leilana has the Ashes etc
#58
Posté 04 mai 2010 - 02:47
jpdipity
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Sarah1281 wrote...
Leliana's stance on the ashes isn't nearly on the same level as, hardened, she can get over it. WYNNE and the ashes, however...Most of the characters have a single thing that is utterly unacceptable for them - Wynne has blood magic, Alistair has Loghain, Leilana has the Ashes etc
true...hardened, it is not as serious. Let's change that to some of the characters - not "most".
