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New DLC is bad value for me


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#401
Kajan451

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Krigwin wrote...

...Are you by chance a sociopath, or just 12 years old? "Wow guys I got totally ripped off but at least I got what I wanted, thus I don't care if other people get ripped off too!" seriously wat

I'm seeing a lot of the same, tired, shortsighted arguments again, so it's time for another lesson with Professor Krigwin:

1. "But Professor, it's only $2! That's so cheap, it's like the price of one [insert product here]! Clearly, it's insignificant!"

Me: Ah well students, it just so happens I'm a multi-billionaire. $2000 is cheap for me, that's like the price of a cheap suit, and I go through five suits a week. I think video games should be sold for $2000 each, what do you think?

The point is, the price does not matter, it's the principle behind it. Microtransactions is a sleazy, underhanded business practice that is fast replacing the old model of actual quality, full-length expansive content. The pricing seems low, but this is until you grow up and realize you're not the center of the universe, and thus realize there are other people on Earth besides you, and some of them also happen to purchase video games.

In fact, the entire purpose behind microtransactions is to deliberately price each item low, to fool the consumers into thinking that it is good value and not an enormous waste of money. This works so well because a lot of video game consumers apparently have the IQ of chimpanzees and don't realize value is a relative concept. If I try to sell you a cup of my urine, it doesn't matter if I'm asking for 20 thousand dollars or 20 cents, it's still not worth the price.

There's actually a psychological effect behind this called the money illusion (http://www.pnas.org/...06/13/5025.full) that basically states your brain is stupid and has a hard time understanding that six $1 bills is more money than one $5 bill. This is why strippers accept tips in singles and why most slot machines take nickels or quarters instead of singles now. By making the price arbitrarily low, your brain is fooled into thinking its not spending a lot of money, when in fact once the purchases ramp up, you've spent more money than you probably would have if it came at a high cost to begin with, because then you would've rationalized it was too much money and not worth the value.

It should come to no surprise that the pioneer of this deceptive and exploitative practice is EA, the benefactors of Bioware now. So basically, when you buy low-priced DLC, you're basically telling EA, "Yes I'm too dumb to see what you're doing, please keep doing it to me, here let me help you by unzipping my pants and bending over."

2. "But Professor! It's okay if I don't do it! After all, why does it matter to me if other people do it?"

Me: Contrary to what you may believe and what your parents and the whole of American elementary-grade education told you, children, you're not actually better or worth more than any other person. In fact, in great numbers, other people are worth a whole lot more than you, especially when it comes to economics.

Why does it matter what other people do? Well, because, if you care about consumers' rights and the state of the industry, these other people are deciding the future of the industry for you. Let me use another analogy: let's say you live in a village where the farmers sell you milk, either in one gallon for $5, or a half-gallon for $4. Clearly, it's more value to buy the whole gallons. Unfortunately, every customer is only limited to buying a single whole gallon per period of time, and unlimited half-gallons.

Now, you're fine with just buying just the whole gallon everytime, but other villagers happen to want or need more milk than you. Some of them realize it's a bad value to buy the half-gallons but don't care, others are so rich it doesn't matter to them that the half-gallons are overpriced. Gradually, the number of people buying half-gallons increase. Eventually, the farmers realize they can make much more money per amount of milk off the half-gallons than the whole-gallons, and stop selling the whole-gallons altogether. Now, you, the original villager, are basically forced to buy the overpriced half-gallons even though you never supported the practice to begin with, simply because of what the other villagers did.

To say that it "doesn't matter what other people do" shows a level of myopia and lack of critical thinking that is frankly, quite disturbing. It doesn't matter if any one individual consumer sees this DLC as a deceptive practice and refuses to support it, it only matters if all the consumers refuses to support it. Otherwise, the message is still being sent to the industry that this practice works and is profitable, and they will continue, and eventually the old models that were better for the consumers to begin with (like, actual expansion packs) will disappear.


I really like this post, the only thing it is lacking is lesson no.3  which explains people that actually trying to fight this practice is a waste of time, because people fight it all the time and there are way to many people who either never read the boards or simply don't care what they do to stop buying this Crap. I am not saying you should give up, but i am saying its fighting windmills.

We can **** and moan all we want... the work hours for decals like a new helmet aren't that massive. I know people who create 3d Models over the course of a saturday afternoon. They work with that kind of stuff, so throwing them out isn't that much a problem. Even if i assume the workload is much higher, because of .. dunno details involved and such. I would assume it doesn't mean more than 20 work hours? For a professional? So if the DLC costs 2$... and a person gets... dunno... 50$ per hour (i assume i am overboard a little) so what is that? 1000$ in Work costs? So if 500 people buy it... out of dunno.. what? 1 Million sold Copies? The DLC will have already reached a profit as soon as person 501 buys it.

There is no way stopping DLCs, the only thing you really can do is voice your discontent with the whole DLC deals. But that only leads to other people telling you they don't understand your issue with it.

Much like Steam. You can tell people all the downsides and you will always hear that they don't care about it, because it doesn't bother them.

Fighting DLCs is a fight that can't be won, because from a buisness Perspective.. you will always find 0,01% Idiots who will pay for the stuff. And 1 Million sold copies... 0,01% is still 10000 People buying it. And thats 20k they make on the DLC alone. It never ever costs 20k to produce the DLC. Its just a Win Situation for the Buisness. Even if only one out of 3 Decal DLCs are sold... it would still make up for the production cost and would not be a loss.

#402
Terror_K

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Michael Gamble wrote...

it's like all the people who complained that the free DLC we released with the game wasn't...free enough. since all of it was built from the ground up as DLC (and not cut from the game as some conspiracy theorists might think)

if we had just charged for it, there may have been less complaining ;)


I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but I'm almost certain that there was a strong indication that The Hammerhead was intended to be in the vanilla game. If not, that was certainly the impression that was put across from the devs for quite a while there.

#403
PurePareidolia

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I agree, this is a terrible practice, and one that vastly overcharges even at low prices, and especially in other countries with unfavourable exchange rates. For example - it would cost me $7 to buy that because I'd have to buy $5US worth of Bioware points which becomes about $7 here, meaning it costs 3.5x regular price for me to buy it.



The worst part is, it's utterly worthless stuff anyway. At least the appearance pack fixed something that had been bugging me (Garrus' armour).



This is stuff any half decent modder could make in under a week at no cost if they had given us an SDK further illustrating just how shameless this is. Worse, it's charging for content equivalent to that which had been free in the past.



To break this down, I'm essentially paying for two helmets because the Inferno armor has no value (it already exists, people have it and aren't charged differently if they already own it).

So for me that's $3.50 per helmet. After they gave out a number of other helmets for free, this makes no sense. But then I never wore the other helmets anyway.



Honestly, the thing is just so boldfacedly sleazy I feel dirty even mentioning it. The only reason I'd ever buy it would be if they released a Liara DLC and I inevitably had BW points left over from their horrible pricing plan.

#404
Relix28

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I wonder, if they are gonna charge us for the Dr. Pepper items also. The items that are obtainable free of charge for anyone because of thier reusable codes. If they do that, it confirms they sold thier souls to the greed demon aka EA.



I mean I like the idea of new content being added periodicaly. It extends your game experience, wich is cool. But I sure as hell don't like where this micro dlc trend is going. Especialy when they add stuff that should have been free CerberusNetwork content in the first place. That's what CN is for isn't it?

I bet they even had all this **** ready for release day, but thought: hey, why not save this stuff for later, ripp some people off and make some easy $$$?

If they had also thrown in Terminus Gear, Incisor Rifle, Collectors' Armor and Dr.Peppers items and chaged it around 200points, that would have been more acceptable. Or even better, release some of that **** for free. /sigh



BioWare, I am disappoint. If this crap continues, I and every other BW fan across the globe will be even more so.

#405
bjdbwea

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Michael Gamble wrote...

it's like all the people who complained that the free DLC we released with the game wasn't...free enough. since all of it was built from the ground up as DLC (and not cut from the game as some conspiracy theorists might think)

if we had just charged for it, there may have been less complaining ;)


Dear Mr. Gamble,

as far as I know, there has been NO free DLC for ME 2 so far. Everything was either part of the initial purchase, or had to be purchased later. Especially the Cerberus network is NOT free, it was always part of the purchase, paid for by everyone who bought the game new. Free DLC would mean content made available free of charge for everyone, including everyone who purchased the game second-hand. No such content is available for ME 2 to my knowledge. If there is, I would like to see a link where I can download that free DLC.

Secondly, the way you play with words is nice, but more transparent than you might think. The DLC you "released with the game" (the pre-order bonuses) may have been developed from the ground up, at least no one can prove differently. But the DLC you later released for the game, especially the Hammerhead, and also the new characters, were very obviously intended to be part of the main game. I believe you when you say that it wasn't really "cut out", because I do believe that it wasn't finished for release. However, that only means the game was released earlier than it should have been, a disappointing move I might add. It certainly does not mean that the DLCs were built from the ground up, everything indicates that it wasn't.

#406
Guest_slimgrin_*

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bjdbwea wrote...

Michael Gamble wrote...

it's like all the people who complained that the free DLC we released with the game wasn't...free enough. since all of it was built from the ground up as DLC (and not cut from the game as some conspiracy theorists might think)

if we had just charged for it, there may have been less complaining ;)


Dear Mr. Gamble,

as far as I know, there has been NO free DLC for ME 2 so far. Everything was either part of the initial purchase, or had to be purchased later. Especially the Cerberus network is NOT free, it was always part of the purchase, paid for by everyone who bought the game new. Free DLC would mean content made available free of charge for everyone, including everyone who purchased the game second-hand. No such content is available for ME 2 to my knowledge. If there is, I would like to see a link where I can download that free DLC.

Secondly, the way you play with words is nice, but more transparent than you might think. The DLC you "released with the game" (the pre-order bonuses) may have been developed from the ground up, at least no one can prove differently. But the DLC you later released for the game, especially the Hammerhead, and also the new characters, were very obviously intended to be part of the main game. I believe you when you say that it wasn't really "cut out", because I do believe that it wasn't finished for release. However, that only means the game was released earlier than it should have been, a disappointing move I might add. It certainly does not mean that the DLCs were built from the ground up, everything indicates that it wasn't.


Would be nice to see someone from Bioware respond to the more intelligent and well written posts such as the above, instead of just cherry picking the ones who are complaining, dropping a one-liner, and getting the hell out of the forums.

#407
Relix28

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slimgrin wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

Michael Gamble wrote...

it's like all the people who complained that the free DLC we released with the game wasn't...free enough. since all of it was built from the ground up as DLC (and not cut from the game as some conspiracy theorists might think)

if we had just charged for it, there may have been less complaining ;)


Dear Mr. Gamble,

as far as I know, there has been NO free DLC for ME 2 so far. Everything was either part of the initial purchase, or had to be purchased later. Especially the Cerberus network is NOT free, it was always part of the purchase, paid for by everyone who bought the game new. Free DLC would mean content made available free of charge for everyone, including everyone who purchased the game second-hand. No such content is available for ME 2 to my knowledge. If there is, I would like to see a link where I can download that free DLC.

Secondly, the way you play with words is nice, but more transparent than you might think. The DLC you "released with the game" (the pre-order bonuses) may have been developed from the ground up, at least no one can prove differently. But the DLC you later released for the game, especially the Hammerhead, and also the new characters, were very obviously intended to be part of the main game. I believe you when you say that it wasn't really "cut out", because I do believe that it wasn't finished for release. However, that only means the game was released earlier than it should have been, a disappointing move I might add. It certainly does not mean that the DLCs were built from the ground up, everything indicates that it wasn't.


Would be nice to see someone from Bioware respond to the more intelligent and well written posts such as the above, instead of just cherry picking the ones who are complaining, dropping a one-liner, and getting the hell out of the forums.


I doubt we will ever live to see that kinda thing happen. Would love 2 thou. :)

#408
TheSeventhJedi

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Okay, let's put it this way. With microtransactions, you're paying for convenience. Sure, 2$ does not sufficiently reflect the value of the product. However, it's cheap, and I can have new stuff right now rather than going on a grand crusade (that is ultimately doomed to fail,) to show BW and the rest of gaming the error of their ways. When you go to the movies, do you buy popcorn? 6$ could buy you a jumbo box of microwave popcorn at Costco - easily 10-20 times more than what you're getting at the theatre! Why don't people boycott to show the theatres the error of their ways? Hell, while we're on the subject of movies, why do I even go at all anymore? It's 23$ for two tickets, round that to 40$ for snacks, another 40$ the babysitter, and since we've got a babysitter we usually go to dinner as well, netting another 40$. 120$ for 3 hours of entertainment? That's ludicrous, right? Millions do it, they'll always do it, and it's not a good value. Is it fun? Yes. Not worth the money by a long shot, but you know what? I don't care.

#409
Captain_Obvious_au

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Michael Gamble wrote...

Zinoviy wrote...

EA_BiowareAccount wrote...

what if they got rid of inferno armor from the pack but left the price? would op not complain about it?



I wondered this myself, actually, and came to a conclusion that made me sad.


it's like all the people who complained that the free DLC we released with the game wasn't...free enough. since all of it was built from the ground up as DLC (and not cut from the game as some conspiracy theorists might think)

if we had just charged for it, there may have been less complaining ;)

and you can't see the point of people questioning the pricing here because we already have part of the new DLC? It's hardly unreasonable to ask if those who already have Inferno armour shoul dpay less than those who don't.

#410
Jayngo

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Nice to see that this thread finally got noticed with Bioware ppl.



Listen, nobody is complaining about free stuff (at least they shouldn't!). And I would love to continue to purchase SOLID DLC from you guys, but having to pay for CLOTHES and COSTUMES is RIDICULOUS Bioware. It's like paying for my silly Xbox avatar to be clothed...



Ppl are mad because the first waves of armor/headgear/clothing were free to those of us who were "loyal" fans and bought ME2 the day it was released. Why start charging for silly stuff like that now?



You claim it's a conspiracy that the DLC was "cut" from the game. But by allowing this latest DLC to come out in the format it has, it allows ppl to feel that there are conspiracies going on. Namely, EA hooking us all like a stupid fish with the CN and then dropping the floor out from under our feet.

I know that you said there would eventually be DLC to buy, but I did not expect it in the forms of headgear and "skins".



Bioware, you are one of my favorite developers and I have faithfully played your games since Baldur's Gate days. But, when stuff like this happens, it makes me wonder.

#411
ReplicantZero

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Value for money aside, the problem with sporadic 'thin' DLC seems to me that it doesn't really provide enough reason to keep a game installed on your hard drive. And once you've uninstalled the game, a few extra bits of armour or one or two extra missions does not seem to provide enough motivation to reinstall the whole thing again.

Bethesda may have got away with this 'micro-DLC' idea in Oblivion (though they still got criticism for it) because there was some reason outside of the DLC to keep the game installed: continued 'sandbox' play after finishing the main questline and a construction kit that users could build their own modules with. So users (who enjoyed the game) had a motive to keep the game installed anyway. However I'm not sure that this applies to ME2.

#412
javierabegazo

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Could someone post the stats for the two new helmets please?

#413
Fiannawolf

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If I remember, the blue space helmet one has a 10% off reload time on shields and the orangish visor has a 5% increase on omni/power damage.

#414
wolfsite

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javierabegazo wrote...

Could someone post the stats for the two new helmets please?


ya this is from the Main forum thread

Here are some stats:
Capacitor Helmet
Reduces the delay before
shields start regenerating by 10%

Archon Visor
Reduces the
recharge time of your powers by 5%


Again as many many many people have said, if you want to show Bioware/EA that this DLC isn't worth it, don't buy it.  If they see it is selling poorly they will revise future DLC

I'm not getting it since I have already beat the game several times and I don't need Insanity difficulty any easier then it is now.

Also Armour that is not N7 gear tends to just sit and rust in my cabin.

#415
Vena_86

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Terror_K wrote...

Michael Gamble wrote...

it's like all the people who complained that the free DLC we released with the game wasn't...free enough. since all of it was built from the ground up as DLC (and not cut from the game as some conspiracy theorists might think)

if we had just charged for it, there may have been less complaining ;)


I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but I'm almost certain that there was a strong indication that The Hammerhead was intended to be in the vanilla game. If not, that was certainly the impression that was put across from the devs for quite a while there.


Actually it was stated before that there will be a new vehicle with better controls in ME2 giving the impression the hated MAKO controls were fixed. Then when the game came out the critical review magazine I actually trust was pretty much the only one that wondered where the integral vehicle element has gone.
The hammerhead has been planned as DLC without telling the people until the end, just like not telling the people that DLC armor helmets are fixed before everyone ordered their special deal.
I really hate DLC for how it takes games appart, reducing possible quality and mostly because so many people fall for it. Some are even justifying overprized DLC with their illusion of getting previous DLC for free.

Modifié par Vena_86, 05 mai 2010 - 03:26 .


#416
Daeion

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You're right, down with DLC, who cares about adding to a game after it comes out. If it's not in the original game we don't need it... FFS, if you don't like it then don' buy it and stop complaining. Companies are in the business of making money, not giving things away for free.

#417
Burdokva

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Relix28 wrote...
BioWare, I am disappoint. If this crap continues, I and every other BW fan across the globe will be even more so.


Remember - those of us around the globe are not part of the community! :P 

The whole situation with the new "Equalizer" DLC, for those of us who had pre-orderedto get the Inferno, is ridiculous. I can understand it's a deal for those who don't have it. But to pay twice... meh. 

I wonder if the backlash will prevent the same thing happening with other DLC armors, namely the Terminus. It has a fairly good chance of appearing as a 2$ DLC with two new helmets, a gun and new textures. Though the Cerberus and Collectors items would be tricky (not that it stopped Microsoft distributing the CE stuff on release day)...

#418
FlintlockJazz

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I'm not going to complain. There is no point anymore, the damage is done. Instead I am just sad, as I now know that there will never be any good quality dlc for ME2 or DA:O, why make a fair-sized good one when you can churn out lots of piddly little ones and make more money that way from the hordes that will buy anything? Well, have fun, I'm sure EA are.

*Puts on his cowboy hat and, along with Minsc, board's Jack Burton's Pork Chop Express truck and drives off into the sunset*

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 05 mai 2010 - 03:44 .


#419
Monstruo696

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I guess it's time to get crackin'



*badum tsh*

#420
Zinoviy

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There are some more well-written posts regarding this subject and I applaud them for going to the effort, but money talks. Not buying it will affect these decisions the most, because let's face it, EA is for the money.

But still, I don't get the point of trying to prove something or do something on principle here when it's $2 for a non-essential pack. If you already have the Inferno Armor, don't buy it - the other two helmets are non-essential. If you do buy it, the items are $1 instead of 66 cents...

I'm sure this post will get more "wtf you don't gets it nubs" etc., but really, I'll stop once someone actually defeats this. It hasn't been done.

All I've seen so far is complaining about anything BioWare does - INCLUDING the extra content we got for buying the game new. Or people who try to make their side look better by spreading BS about how their pie was sliced before being sold then resold to them, lol.

#421
TJSolo

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AlanC9 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Tell me what is this free DLC you speak of? Clarifiy it.
I can read the legal disclaimers on the ME2 box and Cerberus Network card, clearly CN and the ensuing content can't be what you mean.
If you do mean that you might want to get in touch with EA Legal before responding.


What would you have preferred him to say there? Generally when I'm talking about stuff I don't have to pay for I find that "free" is a pretty useful way to refer to the stuff. Gets the point across, you know.

I'm sure you're trying to make some sort of point rather than just being pedantic. So what is the point?


It has nothing to do with what you are would call "free" in a casual conversation. The statement was about free*, bonus*, and legal disclaimers on the actual product. So Mr. Gamble would not attempt to sound so gratious about free with purchase items and that it is even arguable who benefits more from CN anyway.

#422
Zinoviy

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FlintlockJazz wrote...

I'm not going to complain. There is no point anymore, the damage is done. Instead I am just sad, as I now know that there will never be any good quality dlc for ME2 or DA:O, why make a fair-sized good one when you can churn out lots of piddly little ones and make more money that way from the hordes that will buy anything? Well, have fun, I'm sure EA are.

*Puts on his cowboy hat and, along with Minsc, board's Jack Burton's Pork Chop Express truck and drives off into the sunset*


Yeah, it's posts like these that discredit anything you say. You DON'T work at BioWare, you DON'T know how their people are fielded, you DON'T know which projects they're working on.

If you'd actually pull your head out of your ass and stepped off the self-entitlement throne you're squatting on you might find websites like this: http://scrawlfx.com/...-dlc-on-the-way

Modifié par Zinoviy, 05 mai 2010 - 05:31 .


#423
Captain_Obvious_au

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Zinoviy wrote...

I'm sure this post will get more "wtf you don't gets it nubs" etc., but really, I'll stop once someone actually defeats this. It hasn't been done.

All I've seen so far is complaining about anything BioWare does - INCLUDING the extra content we got for buying the game new. Or people who try to make their side look better by spreading BS about how their pie was sliced before being sold then resold to them, lol.

You need to read more of the thread. The point here isn't whether the pack is good value or not, it's that it's $2 for some to ge tthe infernno armour and 2 helmtets, and $2 for some just to get 2 helmets. It's a bit unfair to those who already have the inferno armour.

#424
Zinoviy

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Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Zinoviy wrote...

I'm sure this post will get more "wtf you don't gets it nubs" etc., but really, I'll stop once someone actually defeats this. It hasn't been done.

All I've seen so far is complaining about anything BioWare does - INCLUDING the extra content we got for buying the game new. Or people who try to make their side look better by spreading BS about how their pie was sliced before being sold then resold to them, lol.

You need to read more of the thread. The point here isn't whether the pack is good value or not, it's that it's $2 for some to ge tthe infernno armour and 2 helmtets, and $2 for some just to get 2 helmets. It's a bit unfair to those who already have the inferno armour.


You should read my post more. Or read the thread more to know that I've been here the whole time. Even had a personal address from the OP attacking me!

All preorder items are anticipated as being released to everyone via DLC, that's the buzz on the forums, so I hope people get over that real quick.

People want to argue "principle", but what this argument comes down to is a 33 cent difference over non-essential items, all the while throwing in shots about how BioWare is screwing them in other ways (e.g. having made the game then specifically going back to take parts out to resell as DLC). The only reason people add stuff like that in is because they know their argument is weak and they need something else to make it seem like they're actually posting something of substance, rather than just a **** post.

This DLC is non-essential - don't friggin' buy it if you have problems with it.

Modifié par Zinoviy, 05 mai 2010 - 06:05 .


#425
FlintlockJazz

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Zinoviy wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I'm not going to complain. There is no point anymore, the damage is done. Instead I am just sad, as I now know that there will never be any good quality dlc for ME2 or DA:O, why make a fair-sized good one when you can churn out lots of piddly little ones and make more money that way from the hordes that will buy anything? Well, have fun, I'm sure EA are.

*Puts on his cowboy hat and, along with Minsc, board's Jack Burton's Pork Chop Express truck and drives off into the sunset*


Yeah, it's posts like these that discredit anything you say. You DON'T work at BioWare, you DON'T know how their people are fielded, you DON'T know which projects they're working on.

If you'd actually pull your head out of your ass and stepped off the self-entitlement throne you're squatting on you might find websites like this: http://scrawlfx.com/...-dlc-on-the-way




Yeah, its posts like this that make you look like a dick, starting off with a personal attack on people really helps your argument, so let me return the favour and tell you to stop ****ing yourself with your huge ego you pathetic little **** and understand that some people don't agree with you, shocking that may be. 

Have you ever seen me complain about the free dlc?  No, because I have never done so, I have commented on the quality of the paid dlc only, which I am indeed entitled to do so.  They may say they are making more story dlc but as far as I have seen they have only released itempacks and appearance packs, and so until they do so I am entitled to my opinion.  I don't want to call them liars but, with these appearance packs and reselling preorder **** they have not done any favours, I no longer consider myself a Bioware fan because I see nothing of the old company here anymore.

You DON'T do any of those things either, so tell me how you know I am absolutely wrong?  I have based my opinion on what they have released so far, and the response they have got, tell me why should a company released something good when they can sell lots of piddly things for greater profits?  Its ****ing capitalism 101 mate, but hey you had to prop your argument up with a personal attack on me, so that invalidates anything you had to say.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 05 mai 2010 - 06:14 .