125 réponses à ce sujet

[C9316]

Yeah I really want to know who you honestly think deserved to be king of Orzammar because frankly I can see valid points for both Bhelen and Harrowmont and I think this would be an interesting dicussion

[GodWood]

Bhelen obviously.

Have you read Harrowmonts epilogues...

[C9316]

GodWood wrote...

Bhelen obviously.
Have you read Harrowmonts epilogues...

Don't get smart with me you know you can just preserve the anvil then Harrowmonts epilouges are much better

[soignee]

GodWood wrote...

Bhelen obviously.
Have you read Harrowmonts epilogues...

This is pretty much the TL:DR version yep. If your character is the lawfully good type that isn't happy putting a slightly Machievellian, backstabbing leader on the throne however, then perhaps not.

If you're a dwarf of either background (and I'm assuming you're not by this question) picking your King is far mroe traumatic.

[GodWood]

C9316 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Bhelen obviously.
Have you read Harrowmonts epilogues...

Don't get smart with me you know you can just preserve the anvil then Harrowmonts epilouges are much better

Umm no, no they're not, they're worse actually.

"Siding with Harrowmont and recovering the Anvil of the Void will also lead to a decline after initial success. Harrowmont will discourage trade with the surface, leading to further isolation. In addition, after Harrowmont refuses Branka more volunteers for the Anvil, she will begin raiding the surface world for the needed ingredients. Eventually the surface world will retaliate, and some of Orzammar's tunnels will collapses in a battle - cutting off all access to the surface."

The technically best ending (at least IMO) is Bhelen King Anvil destroyed

"Siding with Bhelen and destroying the Anvil will cause Orzammar to come into a new age of prosperity at the expense of a dictatorship. Bhelen strengthens Orzammar's ties with the surface world. He also grants casteless greater rights and privileges in exchange for fighting the darkspawn. This policy allows Orzammar to reclaim lost territory, but it upsets the noble and warrior castes. After several failed assassination attempts, he dissolves the Assembly and rules alone. "

However for roleplaying reasons I prefer to preserve the Anvil with Bhelen as king.
EDIT: Although when playing as a DN (my main PC) thats a whole different can of worms.

Modifié par GodWood, 04 mai 2010 - 01:15 .

[Arthur Cousland]

I've put Harrowmont on the throne before with my dwarf noble, but never got to the end with him. I did go the Bhelen route with my human noble, and it seemed like Bhelen was a good choice after epilogue part, though I had my reservations after Bhelen sentenced Harrowmont to death and how he told me not to mention his name again, after I gave the throne to him.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 04 mai 2010 - 01:17 .

[C9316]

Last time I played My epilouge for Harrowmont went somthing like him crushing Bhelen's rebellions with the might of his golems and somthing about having the assembly behind him and junk

[GodWood]

Elps

Bhelen isn't because he is a self-interested despot. No matter who you choose, both are bad for Orzammar.

In the short term, Bhelen does better at ruling than Harrowmont but this is ultimately at great cost.

Bhelen grants the casteless greater rights, improves relations with the surface (and if you get troops sent to Orzammar) recaptures many lost thaigs.



Those are all very good things for Orzammar.

[sylvanaerie]

For Orzammar, Bhelen as king. He's a douche and I despise him but Harrowmont does nothing (if you don't have the Anvil still) and declines in health till he drops dead (or is poisoned) then the Assembly goes right back to backstabbing/'infighting for the throne and no Aeducan's left then to do anything about it. Not sure what's going to happen with that one. Might be interesting in a sequel to see I guess.



Bhelen is a tyrant and a real piece of work but he makes a lot of changes Orzammar needs to progress forward and stop stagnating and declining. If nothing else dissolving that useless Assembly was a step in the right direction. Totally corrupt and ineffectual.



Anvil destroyed is the route I always go. My PC's realize that Branka (who would sacrifice her entire house) to it is not sane enough to use something like that responsibly. Perhaps no one is. That's like giving a 2 year old a loaded shotgun.



And before anyone jumps on my back for ignoring the "Anything to stop the darkspawn" warden thing, my PC's never choose that route. Duncan wants them he has them but they won't change that part of themselves and become an 'end justifies the means' type person.

[soignee]

I'm not denying Bhelen's awesomeness and what he brings to Orzammar, but I'm more interested in the power vacuum he leaves behind when he dies. What exactly can replace him? Especially since he breaks up the Council.

[KnightofPhoenix]

It shouldn't even be up to debate. The epilogues speak for themselves. Bhelen is the the best choice for Orzammar.

[Arthur Cousland]

soignee wrote...

I'm not denying Bhelen's awesomeness and what he brings to Orzammar, but I'm more interested in the power vacuum he leaves behind when he dies. What exactly can replace him? Especially since he breaks up the Council.

I'd imagine that he'd have an heir that would take over.  At least during the dwarf noble origin, there is a letter in his room from Rica (who is the sister to a dwarf commoner pc), about them having a relationship.  I could see an heir in the works.

[sylvanaerie]

soignee wrote...

I'm not denying Bhelen's awesomeness and what he brings to Orzammar, but I'm more interested in the power vacuum he leaves behind when he dies. What exactly can replace him? Especially since he breaks up the Council.

An interesting dilemma for a sequel? As with the Harrowmont ending there is still a power vacuum, as the Assembly backbites and squabbles over it.  (they weren't very effective at the start of the treaty quest either) and Harrowmont declines quickly and does nothing but maintain the status quo.

Bhelen while he is a complete douche and does it all for selfish reasons actually does a lot of good for the dwarves, even dissolving the Assembly.  Though its too much to hope for maybe those left in the years to come after Bhelen dies might be a bit wiser and more reasonable if the lines between casteless and casted blur some.  With those added changes perhaps something good can ultimately come out of total douchery.

Here's hoping anyway.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elps wrote...
He does give Orzammar short-term prosperity but long-term, he's bad news.

Recapturing lost Thaigs. Expanding trade with the surface. Dragging Orzammar into modernity by reforming its traditions.

That's all "short term"?
Bhelen's rule is good for both short term and long term.

[sylvanaerie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elps wrote...
He does give Orzammar short-term prosperity but long-term, he's bad news.

Recapturing lost Thaigs. Expanding trade with the surface. Dragging Orzammar into modernity by reforming its traditions.

That's all "short term"?
Bhelen's rule is good for both short term and long term.

QFT

[soignee]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

soignee wrote...

I'm not denying Bhelen's awesomeness and what he brings to Orzammar, but I'm more interested in the power vacuum he leaves behind when he dies. What exactly can replace him? Especially since he breaks up the Council.

I'd imagine that he'd have an heir that would take over.  At least during the dwarf noble origin, there is a letter in his room from Rica (who is the sister to a dwarf commoner pc), about them having a relationship.  I could see an heir in the works.

indeed, even if you're not a dwarf commoner Rica is still around. Logic dictates that little Endrin must be about too in other playthroughs.

[LadyDamodred]

I agree that Bhelen is the better choice, though not all my characters choose it, as they don't know what's going to happen and must go by their own impressions.



This is probably the one decision that bugged me b/c the differences are so vast that there does truly seem to be a right and a wrong answer.

[Sarah1281]

soignee wrote...

Arthur Cousland wrote...

soignee wrote...

I'm not denying Bhelen's awesomeness and what he brings to Orzammar, but I'm more interested in the power vacuum he leaves behind when he dies. What exactly can replace him? Especially since he breaks up the Council.

I'd imagine that he'd have an heir that would take over.  At least during the dwarf noble origin, there is a letter in his room from Rica (who is the sister to a dwarf commoner pc), about them having a relationship.  I could see an heir in the works.

indeed, even if you're not a dwarf commoner Rica is still around. Logic dictates that little Endrin must be about too in other playthroughs.

Yeah, there are some gossiping noble girls who allude to him and Rica no matter what your origin should Bhelen end up on the throne.

And I don't think Harrowont with no anvil as a ruler really matters as he's only around for a little while and he gets next to nothing done. It's like saying Cailan's rule will be at all relevent in the grand scheme of things. What's important for him is who he picks as his successor. If you're playing as a competent DN and are at hand and in Harrowmont's good graces, it will probably turn out fine. If you're not and he picks someone who holds his values of King as figurehead, honor before reason, and the importace of tradition over anything else...best stick with Bhelen.

The Assembly doesn't need to be dissolved. Bhelen managed to do a lot of his noble-angering reforms before he abolishes it, after all, and he doesn't get rid of them because they're stymying him. He gets rid of it because he doesn't feel the need to take the extra step of dealing with them if they're only going to keep trying to assassinate him.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 04 mai 2010 - 02:04 .

[GodWood]

Elps wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Elps
Bhelen isn't because he is a self-interested despot. No matter who you choose, both are bad for Orzammar.
In the short term, Bhelen does better at ruling than Harrowmont but this is ultimately at great cost.

Bhelen grants the casteless greater rights, improves relations with the surface (and if you get troops sent to Orzammar) recaptures many lost thaigs.

Those are all very good things for Orzammar.

In the short term, I agree. But if you remember the conversation with Lord Dace in the Dwarf Noble Origin giving the castless rights has an economic impact on the noble houses. I'm not convinced Bhelen was interested in helping the castless. I think he was interested in weakening the noble houses to make his position stronger. 
Sure, he reclaims lost thaigs, but who does he reclaim them for? House Aeducan? 

Hmm, that reminds me of Qin She Huang ti (the first Emperor of China), he was similar to Bhelen (establised rights for non nobles, stablilized economy, made travel more efficient, simplified language and rewarded people on their achivements not their family heritage, however he was also a ruthless tyrant) and when he died all the Nobles he pissed off when he ruled basically came back and reclaimed what they lost which basically un-unified China again for a few hundred years.

So yeah I guess you're right unless Bhelen finds a suitable heir.

[soignee]

Sarah1281 wrote...

soignee wrote...

Arthur Cousland wrote...

soignee wrote...

I'm not denying Bhelen's awesomeness and what he brings to Orzammar, but I'm more interested in the power vacuum he leaves behind when he dies. What exactly can replace him? Especially since he breaks up the Council.

I'd imagine that he'd have an heir that would take over.  At least during the dwarf noble origin, there is a letter in his room from Rica (who is the sister to a dwarf commoner pc), about them having a relationship.  I could see an heir in the works.

indeed, even if you're not a dwarf commoner Rica is still around. Logic dictates that little Endrin must be about too in other playthroughs.

Yeah, there are some gossiping noble girls who allude to him and Rica no matter what your origin should Bhelen end up on the throne.

And I don't think Harrowont with no anvil as a ruler really matters as he's only around for a little while and he gets next to nothing done. It's like saying Cailan's rule will be at all relevent in the grand scheme of things. What's important for him is who he picks as his successor. If you're playing as a competent DN and are at hand and in Harrowmont's good graces, it will probably turn out fine. If you're not and he picks someone who holds his values of King over figurehead, honor before reason, and the importace of tradition over anything else...best stick with Bhelen.

The Assembly doesn't need to be dissolved. Bhelen managed to do a lot of his noble-angering reforms before he abolishes it, after all, and he doesn't get rid of them because they're stymying him. He gets rid of it because he doesn't feel the need to take the extra step of dealing with them if they're only going to keep trying to assassinate him.

Bolded for truth!

[Demx]

If voting for Harrowmont to be king seemed right; the upper class citizens spoke louder to you and/or you are viewing their society through your own of what is right.

[eucatastrophe]

Really hard to tell as people have pointed out in this thread.

Bhelen makes a better king but in the long run, you've screwed the Dwarves.

Harrowmont on the other hand basically does nothing  which is good for the times (war against the Archdemon and rebuilding after that) -- he's basically not rocking the boat. But if your character is irked by inactivity, then Harrowmont is the clear loser.

[Willowhugger]

The best ending is Harrowmount and Dwarf noble.



I.e. you as King.