125 réponses à ce sujet

[ArawnNox]

Behlen pretty much changes Orzammar from Rome the Republic, into Rome the Empire. There will be blood. The dwarf epilogue pretty much agrees with that in he suffers several assassination attempts. As others have said, Behlen would need an exceptionally strong heir to maintain that rule, or, he could pass power on to someone else before he dies. Either way, the end of his reign will be messy as he's got a history of not being very diplomatic ( hell of a schemer, but that's not the same thing). With a Dwarf protagonist who returns to Orzammar a Paragon, who put Behlen on the throne in the first place, could possibly help quell dissent. Problem is, the PC wouldn't be able to be in Orzammar all the time and isn't going to live long enough to see the end of Behlen's rule.

Harrowmont, on the other hand, as we know, doesn't last very long and the Assembly goes right back into trying to declare a new king. Once again: There Will be Blood. I agree, that, possibly, a dwarven PC could be named heir (though I doubt even a paragon who was a commoner could be) and fit in to the role, but once again, we're talking only a few decades of rule, at best. After that? Who knows?

Now, on to ruling style. Harrowmont is definitely a morally upright guy, but also not very good at playing politics (using his attempts at buying two votes with one bargaining chip, as an example). He doesn't change anything, which, to the upper crust of society, is just fine. The problem is, in the long run, this will only lead to the nation's decline. Good for Orzammar's immediate stability, but bat for it's longevity.

Behlen, by contrast, invokes very unpopular reforms and shakes up Orzammar's social structure. He seeks new trade and strengthen ties to the surface. In the short term, this is a big mess for Orzammar, socially, but it will bring much more prosperity to the nation in the long run.

In conclusion (I feel like I'm writing an essay >.>) both choices have their good points and strong points. That's the wonderful thing about the way Dragon Age is written, is that nothing is obviously good or bad. Think about the first time you set foot into Orzammar, with no knowledge of both leaders (unless your first playthrough was a Dwarf Noble) and trying to figure out the moral high ground. It sounds like Harrowmont, doesn't it? Imagine the surprise when the epilogue comes along and tells you "Oh, yeah, he rules fine, but dies and things go right back to how they were when you got there."

Final Thought: I side with Behlen. He may be a despot, but he brings the right changes (in my view) to Orzammar.

[Elhanan]

I only placed Bhelen on the throne in one session as a Casteless Rogue Warden. Besides the relationship he was having with my sister, discovering that he was looking into disbanding the corrupt Assembly persuaded me to leave him alive as King. And in my mind's eye, I secretly conscripted Harrowmount into the Wardens to see him spared.



While it may be a better financial outcome for the Dwarven nation to have Bhelen on the throne, I would much rather have a true Nobleman as KIng; not some proven master of deception.

[Nu-Nu]

I honestly don't know, the only way to know is to see how it plays out in the sequel. After Harrowmont rubbish epilogue, I'm going with Bhelen for this current playthrough. And no I'm not going to restore the golems to make it better, I know that is wrong at least.

Also, maybe Bhelen is not the greatest choice but I'm hoping he'll open the way for a new ruler with higher morals but is not a traditionalist.

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 05 mai 2010 - 08:00 .

[WarChicken78]

soignee wrote...

eucatastrophe wrote...

soignee wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

The best ending is Harrowmount and Dwarf noble.

I.e. you as King.

Or queen!
*puts on crown*

Queens are better in light of the fact that dwarf women are just plain awesome

All this dwarf lady love on the forums makes me super happy. <3

I love Dragon Age (besides for a lot of other stuff) for the fact, that Small chubby women are incredibly beautiful and loved by the community. In my opinion, thats exactly how chubby women should be treated by society in general.
I love my dwarven commoner girl:

[Dark Lilith]

I played a female duster and Bhelen took my sister in,so naturally I helped him gain the throne

[ejoslin]

WarChicken78 wrote...

I love Dragon Age (besides for a lot of other stuff) for the fact, that Small chubby women are incredibly beautiful and loved by the community. In my opinion, thats exactly how chubby women should be treated by society in general.
I love my dwarven commoner girl:

Dwarven women are chubby? They're curvy for sure, with tiny waists and such, but they're very muscular and don't look to be flabby at all. They're built more solidly than human and elf females, but I wouldn't call them chubby.

Modifié par ejoslin, 05 mai 2010 - 11:57 .

[WarChicken78]

True... they're more round, more female looking, if you like it better that way

[Sarah1281]

Playing a Dwarven noble origin I found I disliked Harrowmont more than I disliked Bhelen. My father sacrifices me to save House Aeducan from scandal & his closest friend/advisor doesn't even suggest the traditional option, which is a Proving???!!! Not very diplomatic of him! Harrowmont believed in my innocence, yet did nothing about it, then wants me to believe he will be a just, fair king? Not likely!

Harrowmont, like everyone, was blindsided. The deshyrs Bhelen had been bribing moved immediately for an exile without trial so the other options could not have come up. There's no way Endrin himself never would have considered a Proving as a way of proving innocence. The problem is, as he mentions in his note, if he had interceded and insisted on a Proving - and the King was the only one who could at that point - then there would need to be a more thorough investigation into what happened. He clearly knew Bhelen was responsible as if Bhelen weren't then where would the scandal be in finding the true killer? If Trian was dead, the DN had been almost implicated after the Assembly had condemned her but had proven herself innnocent in a Proving, and suspicion also fell on Bhelen...Endrin was old. There was no way that scandal would have died down in enough time to let them keep the throne.

So, to answer the OP question - my DN is really right for Orzammar. Putting Bhelen on the throne, for now, just helps to get her there.

See, I think putting Bhelen on the throne is the LAST thing a DN who wants it themselves would do. Bhelen is paranoid as hell and even after you're exiled and technically casteless he still doesn't stop thinking you want the throne. There's no way he'd let you anywhere near the throne and probably take steps to ensure that if he dies, you don't get it. Not to mention that he's so young a 'tragic accident' wouldn't be believable and you'd still have Bhelen's allies who know you might want vengeance for the exile interested in keeping you off the throne. Are you really going to be able to take it with half of the Assembly automatically voting no? No, the easiest thing to do is just putting Harrowmont on the throne, sorting out House Aeducan and rebuilding their support (with your enemies in the Assembly all dead in the coup) and waiting for Harrowmont to die - or speeding it up a little. HE'S old, after all, and it's a stressful position...

[soignee]

ejoslin wrote...

WarChicken78 wrote...

I love Dragon Age (besides for a lot of other stuff) for the fact, that Small chubby women are incredibly beautiful and loved by the community. In my opinion, thats exactly how chubby women should be treated by society in general.
I love my dwarven commoner girl:

Dwarven women are chubby? They're curvy for sure, with tiny waists and such, but they're very muscular and don't look to be flabby at all. They're built more solidly than human and elf females, but I wouldn't call them chubby.

And awesome racks. Aaaw yeah that's right.

[Willowhugger]

My Warden chose Bhelen the first time around because of two reasons.

1. The Dwarven noble in the tavern tells it like it is.  Basically, that Harrowmount isn't nearly the nice guy that he appears to be.  He and Bhelen are equally bad.

2. ALL Dwarf nobles are jerks.  There's just varying degrees.

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

WarChicken78 wrote...

I love Dragon Age (besides for a lot of other stuff) for the fact, that Small chubby women are incredibly beautiful and loved by the community. In my opinion, thats exactly how chubby women should be treated by society in general.
I love my dwarven commoner girl:

Dwarven women are chubby? They're curvy for sure, with tiny waists and such, but they're very muscular and don't look to be flabby at all. They're built more solidly than human and elf females, but I wouldn't call them chubby.

When I read this I started thinking about this trope.

[Sarah1281]

Willowhugger wrote...

My Warden chose Bhelen the first time around because of two reasons.

1. The Dwarven noble in the tavern tells it like it is.  Basically, that Harrowmount isn't nearly the nice guy that he appears to be.  He and Bhelen are equally bad.

2. ALL Dwarf nobles are jerks.  There's just varying degrees.

Why did you choose Bhelen though, if you see them as equally bad? 

[Willowhugger]

Why did you choose Bhelen though, if you see them as equally bad? 

Since it's a toss up between them both being stuck-up, snotty, and ambitious nobles then I just chose the person who would be able to most quickly cut through the red tape in order to get me my assistance in the Blight.  There weren't many clues he'd help the castleless but also further contact with the surface world was a good thing.

[RavenousBear]

I do not like either of these "candidates". I think eventually Orzammar will have bloodshed after the reigns of either King. After Bhelen's death, the nobles will see it as an opportunity to gain back their power in the assembly and will throw a coup against his successor.

With Harrowmont, he does little to change Orzammar which it desperately needs. His reign will be shorter naturally because of his age and with Bhelen's rebel forces still strong as stated in the epilogue, there will be a civil war. Of course he ignores the casteless situation whether or not he does not care or does not have the guts to tell the assembly that this policy needs to change.

In the end, I do not really think it will matter that much who is crowned, the ruthless spoiled brat or the spineless old fossil. As my current character will be a "goody-two-shoes", I will crown Harrowmont without the anvil and get more value for that choice by getting rid of the prince and his gang. Other characters will depend on how I role-play, but in the end I might have half of my characters choose Bhelen and the other half Harrowmont.

Besides the candidates, I do love Orzammar itself and helping the Legion of the Dead clear out the Darkspawn at Bownammar. Those guys are the real heroes of Orzammar.

Modifié par Caak7i, 05 mai 2010 - 07:14 .

[Patriciachr34]

I've only chosen Behlen once and now I regret it. Sure he's a stronger ruler, but he completely disassembles Orzamar's political structure, eliminating any checks and balances. Harrowmont may be Jimmy Carter-esque (more statesman than politician), but he provides a period of much needed stability. Most social and cultural change needs to come slowly or there will be chaos and rebellion. This is a generational thing and cannot be done overnight with any hopes of creating long-term stability. Harrowmont knows this. Behelen is too impatient to set the stage for this. He wants to rule on his own terms, traditions be d*mned! He only cares for the moment and his power. This may make him a strong ruler, but certainly makes him a poor leader.

Modifié par Patriciachr34, 05 mai 2010 - 05:33 .

[LyudmilaKatzen]

I don't care much for either one as a good leader for all the reasons pointed out. I do however like Bhelen even less after my last playthrough. I accidentally discovered you can show the documents about Harrowmont's land deals to the Shaper, and the Shaper tells you that those were not the versions of the documents that were approved by the Shaperate. Bhelen forged the documents and modified them to look like they were giving the same piece of land to both houses.

[maxernst]

Do we know for sure that the Shaper isn't lying? He's VERY clearly opposed to Bhelen. I supported Harrowmont in my game, but after learning that Bhelen wanted to extend rights to the casteless and thinking about the Shaper's politcs, I began to wonder if I'd been had.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

You gotta crack a few eggs if you want to make an omlette. So, Bhelen wins in the playthroughs that I intend to be my cannon ones. Orzammar is stagnant, it's whole society and political struxture need change, and they need it yesterday. The dwarves don't have the luxury of long, gradual change. They are dwindling in their constant war with the darkspawn.



And much of that has to do with a society that will not bend and break tradition even though their very survival is at stake. So yes. They need Bhelen, whether they like it or not. Orzammar's assembly is a crock anyway. it's limited to scheming nobles looking out for number 1, not the survival and advancement of their people.

[thegreateski]

Bhelen.



There are times in history when a dictatorship is the best form of government. Such as when a society is on the brink of collapse.

[Willowhugger]

thegreateski wrote...

Bhelen.

There are times in history when a dictatorship is the best form of government. Such as when a society is on the brink of collapse.

It depends, will Orzammar survive Bhelen's death?

History has a funny way of zig zagging.

[thegreateski]

Willowhugger wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Bhelen.

There are times in history when a dictatorship is the best form of government. Such as when a society is on the brink of collapse.

It depends, will Orzammar survive Bhelen's death?

History has a funny way of zig zagging.

Well I am fairly certain that someone as genre savvy as Behlen will plan for his death.