125 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

Well I am fairly certain that someone as genre savvy as Behlen will plan for his death.

Depends if he's loyal genuinely to Orzammar or his cult of personality.  Dictators have a way of dismantling everything that could stand in their way and we know that Bhelen does so.  Without the assembly, Orzammar could end up being crippled with future monarchs.

Even worse than with Harrowmount's ascension.

[thegreateski]

It could also turn out to be a paradise. However no lore has been written about it so lets drop it.

[askanec]

The Assembly exists as a system of check and balance. Once Bhelen dissolves the Assembly, he basically rules as he pleases. Some will point to his reforms that he's a benevolent dictator.



However, it's always a bad idea to allow one person to rule as he likes, because no one person possess the wisdom to govern a whole people. It's akin to President Obama kicking out Congress and the Supreme Court, and amend the constitution so he can be president for life, so he can do whatever he likes, whenever he likes, to whoever he likes. Are we prepared to hand over absolute power to one man, even if he's a real nice guy?



Sure, Bhelen does some stuff right now that's beneficial to everyone, but what happens if the next guy who takes over him decides to run Orzammar into the ground and there's no system of check and balance to stop him?

[Willowhugger]

Augustus Caesar was the greatest leader of Rome's history.  Simultaneously, the Emperor system he created destroyed Rome.

Really, we're just speculating because that's what we do.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 07 mai 2010 - 02:30 .

[thegreateski]

askanec wrote...
Sure, Bhelen does some stuff right now that's beneficial to everyone, but what happens if the next guy who takes over him decides to run Orzammar into the ground and there's no system of check and balance to stop him?

He'll be assassinated obviously.

For example.

When Paragon Aeducan was named a paragon there was a single noble who voted against it . . . that noble was promptly beaten to death on the floor of the assembly.

Dwarven politics are like that.

Modifié par thegreateski, 07 mai 2010 - 02:35 .

[askanec]

thegreateski wrote...

askanec wrote...
Sure, Bhelen does some stuff right now that's beneficial to everyone, but what happens if the next guy who takes over him decides to run Orzammar into the ground and there's no system of check and balance to stop him?

He'll be assassinated obviously.

For example.

When Paragon Aeducan was named a paragon there was a single noble who voted against it . . . that noble was promptly beaten to death on the floor of the assembly.

Dwarven politics are like that.

Yeah, like how successful those assassins are in taking down Bhelen. Oh wait, they didn't.

[Asophetes]

thegreateski wrote...

askanec wrote...
Sure, Bhelen does some stuff right now that's beneficial to everyone, but what happens if the next guy who takes over him decides to run Orzammar into the ground and there's no system of check and balance to stop him?

He'll be assassinated obviously.

For example.

When Paragon Aeducan was named a paragon there was a single noble who voted against it . . . that noble was promptly beaten to death on the floor of the assembly.

Dwarven politics are like that.

"Ok, we're all in agreement about the new authortarian dictator that we shall name king?"
"Well, I"m not."
"Then get the f*** out."

I got to apreciate the simplicity of Dwarven Politics.

[thegreateski]

askanec wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

askanec wrote...
Sure, Bhelen does some stuff right now that's beneficial to everyone, but what happens if the next guy who takes over him decides to run Orzammar into the ground and there's no system of check and balance to stop him?

He'll be assassinated obviously.

For example.

When Paragon Aeducan was named a paragon there was a single noble who voted against it . . . that noble was promptly beaten to death on the floor of the assembly.

Dwarven politics are like that.

Yeah, like how successful those assassins are in taking down Bhelen. Oh wait, they didn't.

We only know that a few assassins failed to kill him. That led to the assembly being dissolved.

The odds of him being "offed" . . . sometime in the future are very good.

But . . . again we have traveled into the realm of "no lore has been written".

Bleh.

Modifié par thegreateski, 07 mai 2010 - 02:45 .

[Willowhugger]

It depends on how he dissolved the Assembly.



For example, did he use acid?



Or lava?

[Elhanan]

Willowhugger wrote...

It depends on how he dissolved the Assembly.

For example, did he use acid?

Or lava?

More than likely, he closed Tapster's.....

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

It depends on how he dissolved the Assembly.

For example, did he use acid?

Or lava?

More than likely, he closed Tapster's.....

He does that he'll have a full-scale revolt on his hands. Remember, if you ask the pissy guard at the entrance to the city how a city can function with all the in-fighting (after he first finishes blaming you for all the problems or saying it figures a brand/surfacer wouldn't understand) that the market is open and so is the tavern. That's one of the only things keeping the city running at that point. If Bhelen closes it...

[Fizzeler]

Bhelen almost always with the Anvil preserved.



Why?



In the short run the golems help greatly against the Blight and Orzammar push back the darkspawn, Bhelen is also a stronger leader and wants to push Orzammar away from tradition and towards progress. Yes he becomes a dictator and breaks into civil war with Branka, but he does help reclaim a lot of what was lost in the Deep Roads, coupled with my choice in Awakening (for those who have played you know the decision I am talking about) at first it seems more evil, but in the end it is for the best

[Sarah1281]

He reclaims a lot of Thaigs without the Anvil. I know without the Anvil he dissolves the Assembly and gives the casteless more rights so they'll go fight darkspawn for him (and it also decreases the casteless population which is good because Dust Town is overcrowded as it is). I'm not positive about with the Anvil as I don't trust Branka or Bhelen/Harrowmont with that kind of power. If I understand correctly, though, she makes a few golems and then when Bhelen asks her to just make them for him she refuses and runs back off to the Deep Roads so the net result is a few extra golems. She may become a golem like Caridin herself or if not when she eventually dies someone else will need to find a way into her impenetrable fortress to reclaim the anvil - and just look what it cost to reach Caridin's.



How is this ending better for Orzammar then Bhelen's anvil-less one?

[Fizzeler]

Sarah1281 wrote...

How is this ending better for Orzammar then Bhelen's anvil-less one?

Better than having dwarves attempt to recreate the Anvil and have golems go beserk!

The Anvil probably has bigger effect on DA2 (I do think Branka will face the fate of Caridan as well, but she also deserves it for causing the deaths of her entire house for the Anvil)

[thegreateski]

Fizzeler wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

How is this ending better for Orzammar then Bhelen's anvil-less one?

Better than having dwarves attempt to recreate the Anvil and have golems go beserk!

The Anvil probably has bigger effect on DA2 (I do think Branka will face the fate of Caridan as well, but she also deserves it for causing the deaths of her entire house for the Anvil)

I would like to point out that a single golem went berserk. Not many.

[Sarah1281]

thegreateski wrote...

Fizzeler wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

How is this ending better for Orzammar then Bhelen's anvil-less one?

Better than having dwarves attempt to recreate the Anvil and have golems go beserk!

The Anvil probably has bigger effect on DA2 (I do think Branka will face the fate of Caridan as well, but she also deserves it for causing the deaths of her entire house for the Anvil)

I would like to point out that a single golem went berserk. Not many.

And these dwarves had to petition the Shaper in order to allow this to be attempted. Once bad things happened and several of the dwarves involved died, the Shpaer refused to allow the research to continue. Sure people WANT to but they can't. A few dwarves dying because of that is probably less destructive than Bhelen's little power-struggle with Branka when she retreats to the Deep Roads.

[JosieJ]

As a player, I think Bhelen is better for Orzammar than Harrowmont.  Some of my PCs have thought differently, but they didn't have as much information to go on as I did!

Talk to all the NPCs, even the passersby on the street, and you'll get a picture of Orzammar as a society in a long, slow decline.  The darkspawn are practically on their doorstep, they've got a vast, idle underclass seething with resentment, the warrior caste is dying out fighting against the darkspawn and not being replaced fast enough because of low fertility rates, and the nobles--especially the deshyrs--are only interested in protecting their own perks and privileges.  The rigid caste system is preventing people with talent, strength, and ingenuity from being in a position to help Orzammar.  One person wants to keep this status quo.  One person wants to change it.  As a player, it seems plain that to continue on with this status quo is to continue on a path to a slow death.

In my first playthrough, my PC picked Bhelen because Harrowmont was very wishy-washy when asked about the issue of troops to fight the darkspawn.  To my PC's mind, he was being mealy-mouthed because he intended to defer to the Assembly.  Having witnessed the Assembly's gridlock and indecision, my PC did not want the issue of troops to be hostage to their whim.  Bhelen, on the other hand, was forceful and upfront: help me and you'll have your troops.  My PC felt it showed he'd cut through the BS and red tape and make it happen.

The fact that Bhelen was manipulative and ruthless didn't turn my PC off; that was the system the dwarves themselves had come up with and he was merely playing within the system.  Harrowmont himself wasn't above some bribery to advance his position: remember, Bhelen wouldn't have been able to make it seem as if Harrowmont promised Dace and Helmi the same piece of land if Harrowmont hadn't promised both of them a piece of land (but not the same one) for their votes.

[Willowhugger]

What's noteworthy is that Bhelen resembles a lot of real-life dictators who exist in places with seething but violent underclasses. It's almost Dictatorship 101 that the best way to come to power is to harness the power of the angry and oppressed to turn it to your advantage. Bhelen might actually love his Casteless wife but more likely, he also recognizes the casteless will do almost anything to prove themselves "worthy" of being accepted as part of society.

To avoid Godwin, history's most infamous dictator actually was fairly unusual for the fact he reversed the trend by scapegoating. Usually, the situation is that the underclass is harnessed like in the Soviet Union or many African, Middle Eastern, and South American nations.

So while it may be a good thing Bhelen is easing restrictions on the Casteless, it's very likely they'll be his new secret police.  He tried to make them that using his deal with Jarvia but it's clear she wasn't interested.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 07 mai 2010 - 09:26 .

[Armados]

I am going to raise this thread from the dead to add something I haven't seen anyone mention. I was researching the different options for Orzammar endings with Dwarf Origins on many different forums. What I have found to be the best ending is if you are a Dwarf Commoner and you support Bhelen. Since in the story, as a commoner, you see that Bhelen's mistress is your sister, when Bhelen dies, your nephew from your sister becomes a very successful king. I read it from multiple different sources but I haven't tried it myself yet.

[ejoslin]

Armados wrote...

I am going to raise this thread from the dead to add something I haven't seen anyone mention. I was researching the different options for Orzammar endings with Dwarf Origins on many different forums. What I have found to be the best ending is if you are a Dwarf Commoner and you support Bhelen. Since in the story, as a commoner, you see that Bhelen's mistress is your sister, when Bhelen dies, your nephew from your sister becomes a very successful king. I read it from multiple different sources but I haven't tried it myself yet.

No.  There's no mention of little Endrin in the epilogues.

[Hallusinaatti]

IMO Harrowmont without the Anvil is the best choice since it eventually leads to a status quo, which is best for Ferelden as they get Dwarven aid against the Blight but not need to worry about them getting too strong in the future. The way I see it, human king of Ferelden should make Orzammar his puppet state and use the dwarves as cannon fodder against the Darkspawn.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Bhelen.

Sure, he's a power-hungry ****** that had his own family members murdered to seize the crown, but he's got the better 'vision' for Orzammar. Orzammar is hard pressed as it is by the darkspawn, and can't survive with an entire class of people who aren't considered citizens, and as such, aren't eligible to take part in the city's defense. (beyond the Legion of the Dead, but they are a small order) Dwarven society needs tor radically change if it  Orzammar is to survive.

Unlike Bhelen, Harrowmont might be a honorable man, but he's a traditionalist that wants to maintain the status quo. His rule means stagnation & defeat.

I put Bhelen on the throne even with my canon ' good' character.

[Lugwy]

Immediately or in the long run?

Within the current circumstances, Orzammar needs a king to draw it out of its inevitable decline due to stagnation. As much of a...disagreeable sort Bhelen is, he gets the job done. In the long run, however, Bhelen's dictatorship may be more detrimental.

Harrowmont may not cause problems in the long run, but he will not get anything done in the short-term either. He is, after all, a puppet of the Assembly.

[Loki330]

"If you want to make enemies, try to change something" as the Deus Ex 3 trailer puts it.

Bhelen is power-hungry, and utterly, utterly ruthless. Check out leaders that come to power in times of struggle during historical conflicts though. I'm currently studying Ancient History and trust me, Octavius (Aka Augustus) Ceasar, Alexander the Great, Vespasian, they call came to pwoer in uncertain times.

They were all ruthless, merciless and very, very good at what they did, in part because they had the balls to do what no-one else would. Why is this related to Bhelen? Well depending on your interpretation, he's either trying to get to be King because he's an ambitious little gob-s**te and then gets the Casteless on board to retake and dissolves the assembly to shift power from the Nobility to the Commoners (see the Roman emperor Claudius for vaguely similar parallel in regards to the politics.)

Another alternative interpretation is he sees the traditionalism is making the dwarves slowly implode. After all, however many hundreds of years have achieved nothing but losses. Thhe system has failed, there is a power vacuum and he is going to fill it and drag his fellows to success whether they like it or not. (See Octavius/Augustus for a broad parallel)

[Aedan_Cousland]

Patriciachr34 wrote...

I've only chosen Behlen once and now I regret it. Sure he's a stronger ruler, but he completely disassembles Orzamar's political structure, eliminating any checks and balances. Harrowmont may be Jimmy Carter-esque (more statesman than politician), but he provides a period of much needed stability. Most social and cultural change needs to come slowly or there will be chaos and rebellion. This is a generational thing and cannot be done overnight with any hopes of creating long-term stability. Harrowmont knows this. Behelen is too impatient to set the stage for this. He wants to rule on his own terms, traditions be d*mned! He only cares for the moment and his power. This may make him a strong ruler, but certainly makes him a poor leader.

Orzammar doesn't have the luxury of time when it comes to social change.

The barbarians (Darkspawn) are at the gates, and unless the casteless are elevated to citizen status and given a stake in defending the city, it is doomed to share the fate of all those lost Thaigs. This is why Bhelen is the better choice, IMO. Unlike Harrowmont he realizes that Dwarven society needs to change now or their civilization will continue it's decline, unabated.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 11 avril 2011 - 01:49 .