49 réponses à ce sujet

[OniGanon]

@Nexolek: Using that logic, then it'd be fair to say you should take another shotgun (since they're all pretty well balanced) and pick up the Viper.

@JaegerBane: using melee between shots isn't a glitch.

Modifié par OniGanon, 05 mai 2010 - 09:35 .

[JaegerBane]

OniGanon wrote...
@JaegerBane: using melee between shots isn't a glitch.

I was referring to the reload trick.

Meleeing between shots is all very well and good.... but I'd prefer to just keep shooting. An option for the Scimitar, but not the Claymore.

[OniGanon]

Actually the Scimitar's non-reliance on melee is something that's worth considering, more so for the non-Vanguard classes who may not always be at elbowing distance from their enemies.

[BeresaadSoldier]

Claymore is way better than scimitar when you can't rely on warp explosions. End of story. Kills faster, it's safer due to less exposure (you're 1 shotting enemies) and does amazing damage to armor. Can't be matched by the scimitar in any way unless you only use your shotgun to strip down shields and barriers and let your squadmates finish them off with warp explosions/flashbang etc.

[JaegerBane]

BeresaadSoldier wrote...

Claymore is way better than scimitar when you can't rely on warp explosions. End of story. Kills faster, it's safer due to less exposure (you're 1 shotting enemies) and does amazing damage to armor. Can't be matched by the scimitar in any way unless you only use your shotgun to strip down shields and barriers and let your squadmates finish them off with warp explosions/flashbang etc.

Actually, it doesn't 'kill faster'. The DPS is flatly superior.

Read this.

Rate of fire is king. The only way you can get around this is via the reload trick. In the hands of a Vanguard, with access to Inferno ammo but no anti-shield, the gap widens further.

I'm not really sure what you're going on about Warp Explosions. What do they have to do with what shotgun you use?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 05 mai 2010 - 10:05 .

[Nexolek]

My point before was that no shotgun is best. I never claimed that the Claymore was superior. Not once. All I have ever said is that they're all pretty much equal. Paper dps stats on the wiki don't mean much during actual gameplay either. This video helps to illustrate. Also, the sticky. The only "best" shotgun is the one that you like the most, and not everyone likes the same one. That's all there is to it. Me? I'm totally neutral. I like all four.

[BeresaadSoldier]

JaegerBane wrote...

BeresaadSoldier wrote...

Claymore is way better than scimitar when you can't rely on warp explosions. End of story. Kills faster, it's safer due to less exposure (you're 1 shotting enemies) and does amazing damage to armor. Can't be matched by the scimitar in any way unless you only use your shotgun to strip down shields and barriers and let your squadmates finish them off with warp explosions/flashbang etc.

Actually, it doesn't 'kill faster'. The DPS is flatly superior.

Read this.

Rate of fire is king. The only way you can get around this is via the reload trick. In the hands of a Vanguard, with access to Inferno ammo but no anti-shield, the gap widens further.

I'm not really sure what you're going on about Warp Explosions. What do they have to do with what shotgun you use?

Lol I've read this a million times. And it doesn't give you the slightest hint about which shotgun is better in terms of gameplay value. DPS doesn't take into account how fast Shepard's shields go down on Insanity. DPS doesn't take into account how often you have to seek cover. DPS doesn't take into account how fast you kill a single enemy due to different amounts of health + defences of each one. The only thing DPS tells you is how much damage sustained fire does. And shotguns aren't about sustained fire, they're about burst damage.

I'll tell you why Claymore is better than the scimitar- it is not down to DPS. It 1 shots most weak enemies on Insanity and it's a great advantage. A vanguard charges into a group and while the scimitar has to fire off 3 or 4 shots to take down a single enemy (all the while that enemy is doing damage to Shepard) the Claymore takes him out in a single shot (meaning the enemy is out, Shepard's survivability increases cause he doesn't take that damage from said enemy anymore). By the time Claymore reloads you have the opportunity to close the distance to another enemy and 1 shot them. This video illustrates what I'm talking about. Watch the first 30 seconds. You can't do that with the scimitar. At least not as fast and not as safe. 
 
Scimitar shines where you have to strip defences and prepare enemies for a warp explosion. Shown best in this video. Very difficult to do that with Claymore cause you have to step away from the enemy to reduce your damage and avoid 1 shotting his health and defences.

The 2 shotguns are for 2 different playstyles. If you like a more tactical gameplay where you utilise squad powers more, go with scimitar. If you're a Rambo style vanguard like me, Claymore is your best bet.

[JaegerBane]

Nexolek wrote...

My point before was that no shotgun is best. I never claimed that the Claymore was superior. Not once. All I have ever said is that they're all pretty much equal. Paper dps stats on the wiki don't mean much during actual gameplay either. This video helps to illustrate. Also, the sticky. The only "best" shotgun is the one that you like the most, and not everyone likes the same one. That's all there is to it. Me? I'm totally neutral. I like all four.

I didn't mean to imply that you were claiming anything of the sort, I was trying to point out that I couldn't see in the videos what was actually a result of using the Claymore.

I suppose you can take or leave the 'paper dps stats' but ultimately, they're the facts. Just ignoring them essentially means that you're not arguing from any kind of objective standpoint and therefore you might as well claim the one with your favourite colour is the best, or whatever - not that you are arguing, of course 

That video is a bit weird, too. It might be an issue of how you play the Vanguard, but I generally don't stand still once I've charge someone, particulalry a klixen. Hell, I rarely charge Klixen full stop, as fighting them at point blank is often more trouble than it's worth.

[SuperMedbh]

Well, if nothing else, I found out about Gogol Bordello via this thread! I'd heard 60 Revolutions before, but had no idea what the name of the song or band was.



Oh, right, shotguns. Just playing about with earlier saves, by Horizon I was able to one shot Collector drones with the Evi, sometimes with a follow up punch. I think I like the Kro-gun better, but not so much better that I'm willing to give up the Viper. I think I'll have to play with the Scimitar, too.



One of the nice things about the Vanguard is the number of weapon choices. With the exception of Soldier, most of the other classes have one, perhaps two best weapons. It's nice to be able to fiddle around with playing styles.

[cruc1al]

BeresaadSoldier wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

BeresaadSoldier wrote...

Claymore is way better than scimitar when you can't rely on warp explosions. End of story. Kills faster, it's safer due to less exposure (you're 1 shotting enemies) and does amazing damage to armor. Can't be matched by the scimitar in any way unless you only use your shotgun to strip down shields and barriers and let your squadmates finish them off with warp explosions/flashbang etc.

Actually, it doesn't 'kill faster'. The DPS is flatly superior.

Read this.

Rate of fire is king. The only way you can get around this is via the reload trick. In the hands of a Vanguard, with access to Inferno ammo but no anti-shield, the gap widens further.

I'm not really sure what you're going on about Warp Explosions. What do they have to do with what shotgun you use?

Lol I've read this a million times. And it doesn't give you the slightest hint about which shotgun is better in terms of gameplay value. DPS doesn't take into account how fast Shepard's shields go down on Insanity. DPS doesn't take into account how often you have to seek cover. DPS doesn't take into account how fast you kill a single enemy due to different amounts of health + defences of each one. The only thing DPS tells you is how much damage sustained fire does. And shotguns aren't about sustained fire, they're about burst damage.

I'll tell you why Claymore is better than the scimitar- it is not down to DPS. It 1 shots most weak enemies on Insanity and it's a great advantage. A vanguard charges into a group and while the scimitar has to fire off 3 or 4 shots to take down a single enemy (all the while that enemy is doing damage to Shepard) the Claymore takes him out in a single shot (meaning the enemy is out, Shepard's survivability increases cause he doesn't take that damage from said enemy anymore). By the time Claymore reloads you have the opportunity to close the distance to another enemy and 1 shot them. This video illustrates what I'm talking about. Watch the first 30 seconds. You can't do that with the scimitar. At least not as fast and not as safe. 
 
Scimitar shines where you have to strip defences and prepare enemies for a warp explosion. Shown best in this video. Very difficult to do that with Claymore cause you have to step away from the enemy to reduce your damage and avoid 1 shotting his health and defences.

The 2 shotguns are for 2 different playstyles. If you like a more tactical gameplay where you utilise squad powers more, go with scimitar. If you're a Rambo style vanguard like me, Claymore is your best bet.

In the Scimitar video, the Scimitar did just fine without warp explosions. The explosions were just a nice extra; they're hardly required to make the Scimitar a great shotgun.

The point about claymore-users taking less fire than scimitar users doesn't necessarily apply. First, organic enemies will panic from incendiary, and the target you charge will lose shields faster than it can recover from the charge impact. It doesn't matter if you charge him with Claymore or Scimitar, he's dead before he can shoot you. Secondly, if you don't exploit the reload trick, it might even be faster for the scimitar to kill the first target and get the second target to panic, compared to claymore killing both targets. In that case the scimitar user would take less fire.

[BeresaadSoldier]

cruc1al wrote...

In the Scimitar video, the Scimitar did just fine without warp explosions. The explosions were just a nice extra; they're hardly required to make the Scimitar a great shotgun.

The point about claymore-users taking less fire than scimitar users doesn't necessarily apply. First, organic enemies will panic from incendiary, and the target you charge will lose shields faster than it can recover from the charge impact. It doesn't matter if you charge him with Claymore or Scimitar, he's dead before he can shoot you. Secondly, if you don't exploit the reload trick, it might even be faster for the scimitar to kill the first target and get the second target to panic, compared to claymore killing both targets. In that case the scimitar user would take less fire.

Wrong. Try to replicate that with a scimitar and see what happens. I guarantee you can't keep everyone under inferno ammo's effect for long, even if you continuously fire at them. They'll get back to their senses just as fast as if you've fired a single shot instead of 5 or 6 with the scimitar. The effect doesn't stack (at least in my game it doesn't). That's why with the Claymore you'd kill 3 people with a single charge and with the scimitar you're guaranteed to take damage while killing the 3rd.

Also distance plays a HUGE role in ME2 vanguard combat. I 1 shot an enemy, I'm free to move to the next one. With the scimitar you have to stand next to the enemy while you kill him and it takes more time to kill him, then move on to the next enemy. I've tried them both, I speak from experience. And about the reload trick, there's really no need to repeat yourself over and over again. I think I've heard your opinion in like 5 different posts already and I've given up explaining why it's there for a reason.

[JaegerBane]

BeresaadSoldier wrote...
Lol I've read this a million times. And it doesn't give you the slightest hint about which shotgun is better in terms of gameplay value. DPS doesn't take into account how fast Shepard's shields go down on Insanity. DPS doesn't take into account how often you have to seek cover. DPS doesn't take into account how fast you kill a single enemy due to different amounts of health + defences of each one. The only thing DPS tells you is how much damage sustained fire does. And shotguns aren't about sustained fire, they're about burst damage.

Shotguns are about fighting at short range, nothing more, nothing less. Stipulations about burst damage and shields and whatnot are purely your own opinions but have little relevance to an objective appraisal of them.

I'll tell you why Claymore is better than the scimitar- it is not down to DPS.

Unless you're using your shotgun as something other than a weapon, I'm afraid it is DPS. No class in this game can mill about in front of enemies, and few encounters will include one or two enemies. One-shotting peons is all very well and good, but dealing with multiple enemies is technically what biotics and incendiary ammo are for, not your shotgun.

It 1 shots most weak enemies on Insanity and it's a great advantage. A vanguard charges into a group and while the scimitar has to fire off 3 or 4 shots to take down a single enemy (all the while that enemy is doing damage to Shepard) the Claymore takes him out in a single shot (meaning the enemy is out, Shepard's survivability increases cause he doesn't take that damage from said enemy anymore). By the time Claymore reloads you have the opportunity to close the distance to another enemy and 1 shot them. This video illustrates what I'm talking about. Watch the first 30 seconds. You can't do that with the scimitar. At least not as fast and not as safe. 

For someone who disregards the actual data in favour of war stories I'm a little surprised that you're so quick to fall back on theory. Those three to four shots assume that, for some reason, Shepard is the only one shooting at his opponents, that he is in a situation where all his enemies can target him, and that inferno ammo has stopped working. I'm sure we can make up all sorts of contrived situatuons that demonstrate the alleged superiority of the Claymore but ultimately, that video only demonstrates that exploiting the reload trick nets a big body count. It's true that the scimitar would have required a bit more tactics, of course, as it wouldn't have killed in a single shot... but then, it doesn't need to, as you could have at least 2 of those guys on fire and prancing around in panic in the time it took to kill one with the claymore had the reload exploit not been used.

Not to mention the fact that cover - something you used as reasoning for your preference for the Claymore - played no role in that video at all.
 

Scimitar shines where you have to strip defences and prepare enemies for a warp explosion. Shown best in this video. Very difficult to do that with Claymore cause you have to step away from the enemy to reduce your damage and avoid 1 shotting his health and defences.

I personally found t best for headshots in the end, particularly with heavy Charge's slowdown, but yeah, I agree.

The 2 shotguns are for 2 different playstyles. If you like a more tactical gameplay where you utilise squad powers more, go with scimitar. If you're a Rambo style vanguard like me, Claymore is your best bet.

Yup. Though I would submit that headshots are even more important with the Claymore than they are with the Scimitar.

[cruc1al]

@ BeresaadSoldier,

Note that in the scimitar video one shot from the scimitar up close killed an unprotected collector drone. Therefore, once you've got the drone on fire, he dies with just one more shot, not 5-6.

Regarding the reload trick, I mentioned it because I wanted to make it clear that I was comparing non-reload trick claymore to scimitar; I know you play with reload trick, so that's exactly why I mentioned it.

But yeah, I'll compare them some time, out of curiosity.

Modifié par cruc1al, 06 mai 2010 - 12:33 .

[Alamar2078]

I recently finished a playthrough and the Kro-gun was just fine. My only problems with it is sometimes I'd forget to reload the stupid thing after a kill The Evi is MUCH more forgiving of doing something "stupid" ....



IIRC Reave & Charge were just about the only things I would use ... [I wore out some buttons!!]

[BeresaadSoldier]

JaegerBane wrote...

Unless you're using your shotgun as something other than a weapon, I'm afraid it is DPS. No class in this game can mill about in front of enemies, and few encounters will include one or two enemies. One-shotting peons is all very well and good, but dealing with multiple enemies is technically what biotics and incendiary ammo are for, not your shotgun.

I guess that's your own interpretation of ME2 combat. Shotgun does it faster and more effectively. If you prefer sitting behind cover, it's your own choice.

JaegerBane wrote...
Those three to four shots assume that, for some reason, Shepard is the only one shooting at his opponents, that he is in a situation where all his enemies can target him, and that inferno ammo has stopped working.

Are we talking about the best shotgun here? Of course you'll disregard such factors as they're only artifacts when it comes to comparing weapon performance within the game. Unless you want to compare the best shotgun in conjunction with squadmates...

JaegerBane wrote...
I'm sure we can make up all sorts of contrived situatuons that demonstrate the alleged superiority of the Claymore but ultimately, that video only demonstrates that exploiting the reload trick nets a big body count. It's true that the scimitar would have required a bit more tactics, of course, as it wouldn't have killed in a single shot... but then, it doesn't need to, as you could have at least 2 of those guys on fire and prancing around in panic in the time it took to kill one with the claymore had the reload exploit not been used.

Reload exploit... Call it whatever you want, it's a part of the gameplay mechanics. It just so happens you can do it with the widow, the claymore, the eviscerator and any other non-heavy weapon out there. The fact that it works best with the claymore doesn't mean we shouldn't take it into account when comparing the shotguns. After all it's the OP's choice if the reload trick is used or not.

JaegerBane wrote...
Not to mention the fact that cover - something you used as reasoning for your preference for the Claymore - played no role in that video at all.

Pretty amazing, isn't it. Scimitar wouldn't have yielded such results, especially when fighting the engineer. I was referring to cover as in charge > claymore to the face > free to seek cover without having taken much damage. It's an easy formula, if you're not an experienced vanguard.

[Samurai_Wahoo]

I am Scimitar VG so I went with the Sniper as my bonus.  Having the reach and armor busting that comes with the SR made some parts really easy.

[Nexolek]

JaegerBane wrote...

I didn't mean to imply that you were claiming anything of the sort, I was trying to point out that I couldn't see in the videos what was actually a result of using the Claymore.

I suppose you can take or leave the 'paper dps stats' but ultimately, they're the facts. Just ignoring them essentially means that you're not arguing from any kind of objective standpoint and therefore you might as well claim the one with your favourite colour is the best, or whatever - not that you are arguing, of course 

That video is a bit weird, too. It might be an issue of how you play the Vanguard, but I generally don't stand still once I've charge someone, particulalry a klixen. Hell, I rarely charge Klixen full stop, as fighting them at point blank is often more trouble than it's worth.

It's all good. All I thought  was "fun Claymore videos", cause that's what it's all about. I wasn't saying that it was better or worse, just that it's viable. Also, I think it has the best sound effect. That, I think, is why I'd choose it over the others if I were forced to. And it's kind of the staple shotgun (not counting Soldier) for the Vanguard. Also, it looks awesome on a femshep. Even better if they're wearing purple... 

SuperMedbh wrote...

Well, if nothing else, I found out about Gogol Bordello via this thread! I'd heard 60 Revolutions before, but had no idea what the name of the song or band was.

Awesome! At least I accomplished something today.

(I was actually going to use Purple People Eater for part two, but it's only about two minutes long. Gogol Bordello fit better anyway.)

OniGanon wrote...

@Nexolek: Using that logic, then it'd be fair to say you should take another shotgun (since they're all pretty well balanced) and pick up the Viper.

That's actually a really good point. I've played the game so much that I take the Claymore route simply because it eliminates the Viper. The last play I did was pure Claymore on NG+, just for the challenge. It was awesome! I definitely missed the Viper now and then, but overall I just really like shotguns and try not to use anything but. Because I can 

Modifié par Nexolek, 05 mai 2010 - 11:50 .

[SuperMedbh]

Okies, after watching the videos so I had an idea of how to use the shotguns, I played the boss battle on Samara's recruitment multiple times with different shotties. My own purely subjective verdict is....Katana O_O!!!

Here's why I like it: my playstyle has a bit of softening up first, then I jump in. So, I'm typically charging groups with half their sheilds/barriers down, or a single baddie off on the side. I need something more rapid than the Evi for the former, as I'd get swarmed. But the Scimitar didn't always punch through a defenses in the first shot when I jumped on solo villians for flanking.

The Katana with rank three inferno ammo would punch through in one go, whereupon the baddie would start doing the "hotfoot dance". I could easily finish them off then, turn my attention to another baddie and be able to shoot (Evi just a smidge too slow here), or turn and run if need be.

Now, for taking down a boss, I can't think of anything better than the Claymore. In the Hardcore run I did with it, I easily went toe to toe with scions and Harbinger. But if I go for the Viper, said toes can sit on the other side of the room

Modifié par SuperMedbh, 06 mai 2010 - 03:33 .

[mcsupersport]

For my playstyle I have found the Evi shotgun with Viper sniper rifle to be the best. The viper can be both sniper rifle and assault rifle as needed. So for all those annoying times when you can't charge because the enemy is in a "protected" or separated area, the viper allows you to reach out and touch them well enough to kill. The Evi for me with inferno ammo, kills shields, armor and causes the fire dance well, plus combined with the elbow of death works well with the 3 round magazine in my play.

[OniGanon]

Watching sinosleep's and cruc1al's shotgun comparison vids will tell you more about the shotguns than any amount of wikia reading, as long as you keep in mind the former is against an enemy with much higher health than the average mook, and the latter has no melee or reload trick.

[Nexolek]

SuperMedbh wrote...

Okies, after watching the videos so I had an idea of how to use the shotguns, I played the boss battle on Samara's recruitment multiple times with different shotties. My own purely subjective verdict is....Katana O_O!!!

Here's why I like it: my playstyle has a bit of softening up first, then I jump in. So, I'm typically charging groups with half their sheilds/barriers down, or a single baddie off on the side. I need something more rapid than the Evi for the former, as I'd get swarmed. But the Scimitar didn't always punch through a defenses in the first shot when I jumped on solo villians for flanking.

The Katana with rank three inferno ammo would punch through in one go, whereupon the baddie would start doing the "hotfoot dance". I could easily finish them off then, turn my attention to another baddie and be able to shoot (Evi just a smidge too slow here), or turn and run if need be.

Now, for taking down a boss, I can't think of anything better than the Claymore. In the Hardcore run I did with it, I easily went toe to toe with scions and Harbinger. But if I go for the Viper, said toes can sit on the other side of the room

That's awesome! I very much love the Katana too, which is why I made my little video. It's always been somewhat of the underdog, though I don't really know why. I guess because it's the first shotgun you get and the first weapon is usually the weakest... or something. I think it's great though. It has a very accessible shot/melee rhythm to it.

The Scim is so fast that it's really hard to keep the shot/melee cycle going, though technically that will give you higher dps (and a sore melee button finger). The Evi has enough time for two melee hits between shots, but you have to nail the first melee very quickly for the timing to work. The Claymore, of course, has the reload trick, which requires a lot of concentration (especially before you can do it subconsciously). The Katana, however, is just nice and smooth. Definitely the most relaxing of the shotguns I'd say.

[SmokeyNinjas]

While the Claymore is my favorite shotgun i also dont think it's worth the loss of the Viper so i roll with the Eviscerator

[OniGanon]

Nexolek wrote...
The Scim is so fast that it's really hard to keep the shot/melee cycle going, though technically that will give you higher dps (and a sore melee button finger). The Evi has enough time for two melee hits between shots, but you have to nail the first melee very quickly for the timing to work. The Claymore, of course, has the reload trick, which requires a lot of concentration (especially before you can do it subconsciously). The Katana, however, is just nice and smooth. Definitely the most relaxing of the shotguns I'd say.

This has very much been my experience as well. I understand, in theory, that the other shotguns are just as effective but I find it hard to really get into their rhythm, whereas the Katana is just really smooth and easy shoot-melee-shoot. I've used it to completely stunlock Eclipse miniboss type enemies through all 5 shots. I can't do that with any other shotgun.

[Simbacca]

Evi fan here. I tried the Claymore but the one round clip was a pain even when attempting the reload trick (though on the Xbox360). I find the Scimitar just takes too long to kill the enemies I charge compared to the Evi. I charge enemies to kill them, not strip them. With the proper upgrades/equipment (especially melee), I find I kill the enemy I charge much quicker with an Evi blast and a melee, and still have a couple more shots in the clip if I need to spread more Inferno panic. I also like the Evi's tighter spread, a little more accurate for those mid-range shots to other foes not so clustered against my charge victim.

Of course this opinion isn't based on any number crunching, just based on personal game-play testing with the guns.

Modifié par Simbacca, 06 mai 2010 - 04:46 .

[Sailears]

I must admit I prefer using the evi with slightly more tactical play, rather than charge-blam-charge-blam with the claymore. It also allows more opportunity for using melee to attack, rather than for the reload trick.