120 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Shiori]

asaiasai wrote...

Morrigan can be completely blown off as a character there is nothing that involves Morrigan that can not be avoided.

Asai

Nothing important that involves Morrigan?

How exactly would you describe the dark ritual then?

Morrigan has the most important and unavoidable plot point in the entire game. How you deal with her offer pretty much determines the fate of your character. Yes, you can refuse the offer and let someone else die in your place, but that's metagaming knowledge. When you're presented with the ritual for the first time you only know of 2 possible outcomes: sire a child with Morrigan and live or die killing the Archdemon. You cannot know how the final battle plays out. You can't guess what will happen to Riordan or Alistair/Loghain. What if they all die during the battle or you reach the Archdemon and find that, due to the situation on the battlefield, none of them are in position to take that final blow?
Anyone who's playing Dragon Age for the first time and would rather see a happy ending for his/her Warden then choose UC WILL agree to Morrigan's offer. That is what makes her so important. She's the only guarantee you have of surviving.

By comparison, every major quest you did and the decisions you choose there are irrelevant.

Nature of the Beast, Paragon of her Kind, Broken Circle, Arl of Redcliffe.. it doesn't matter how you did those. At the end you will get troops for your army and Arl Eamon will support you no matter what.

Same goes for Landsmeet. No matter what you do there Ferelden will rally behind you.
Alistair may achieve his destiny and asume the throne, but that is entirely up to you as a player. You could just as easily put Anora on the throne, have Alistair exiled or executed and it would have zero effect on the final battle.

You obviously don't think much of Morrigan as a character.

Maybe you tried romancing her once and didn't like how it turned out or perhaps she just isn't your cup of tea.

That's perfectly fine and to each his own.

However, just because you don't like a certain character doesn't mean they aren't important in the game itself, and Morrigan's role is rather important in the grand scheme of things in DA:O.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 09 mai 2010 - 08:45 .

[GodWood]

Master Shiori wrote...
Nothing important that involves Morrigan?
How exactly would you descrivbe the dark ritual then?
Morrigan has the most important and unavoidable plot point in the entire game.

Incorrect, I can tell Morrigan to leave pretty much after Lothering thus avoiding the whole DR thing.

Modifié par GodWood, 09 mai 2010 - 08:24 .

[Master Shiori]

GodWood wrote...

Nothing important that involves Morrigan?
How exactly would you descrivbe the dark ritual then?
Morrigan has the most important and unavoidable plot point in the entire game.

Incorrect, I can tell Morrigan to leave pretty much after Lothering thus avoiding the whole DR thing.

And she will still return to offer it to you before the final battle.

You cannot avoid the ritual any more then you can avoid becoming a Grey Warden.

[GodWood]

Master Shiori wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Nothing important that involves Morrigan?
How exactly would you descrivbe the dark ritual then?
Morrigan has the most important and unavoidable plot point in the entire game.

Incorrect, I can tell Morrigan to leave pretty much after Lothering thus avoiding the whole DR thing.

And she will still return to offer it to you before the final battle.
You cannot avoid the ritual any more then you can avoid becoming a Grey Warden.

Really?
Well thats what I get for making assumptions...

[ObserverStatus]

If Alistair is the dad, there's a good chance the child will be severely handicapped, and in that case I don't see it as a boss.

[asaiasai]

Master Shiori wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Morrigan can be completely blown off as a character there is nothing that involves Morrigan that can not be avoided.

Asai

Nothing important that involves Morrigan?
Correct. Glad you understand.


How exactly would you describe the dark ritual then?
Optional nothing more nothing less.

Morrigan has the most important and unavoidable plot point in the entire game.
False. I would like to hear just what exact plot point you are talking about. Her entire story arc is optional, at the discretion of the player as to how little or much she is involved. Other than like herpes she can not be totally made to go away, and this is hardly a reason to base an entire game, maybe some 5 dollar DLC and i am still being generous at 5 bucks. Also i can avoid this purchase and still anticipate DA2 but if DA2 cannonizes the Morrigan story arc i am screwed unless they make a way to again minimize any Morrigan influence by player choice.

How you deal with her offer pretty much determines the fate of your character.
In what way? I leave Morrigan at camp and her involvment in the game is minimized. She is completely irrelevant to the story as i have proven by leaving her at camp or dismissing her entirely. Refusing the DR in all but 2 of 16 completed plays. She is only integral if you integrate her into the game other than that she can watch wood burn or help Allistair make supper.

Yes, you can refuse the offer and let someone else die in your place, but that's metagaming knowledge. When you're presented with the ritual for the first time you only know of 2 possible outcomes: sire a child with Morrigan and live or die killing the Archdemon. You cannot know how the final battle plays out. You can't guess what will happen to Riordan or Alistair/Loghain. What if they all die during the battle or you reach the Archdemon and find that, due to the situation on the battlefield, none of them are in position to take that final blow?
Anyone who's playing Dragon Age for the first time and would rather see a happy ending for his/her Warden then choose UC WILL agree to Morrigan's offer.
Upon completion of my very first game I took the final blow, so this is just a generalization from your particular perspective.  The only reason i stopped taking the final blows myself is that i wanted several characters to move into Awakenings. No i could not guess what the outcome would be but i knew that involving Morrigan was not an option i wanted to excercise. After 16 plays i can not help but meta game, it is the way it is, and after 16 plays there is nothing that involved Morrigan that i can not skip and still complete the game.

That is what makes her so important. She's the only guarantee you have of surviving.
False, I will survive because either Loghain or Allistair will take the final blow so again your argument fails to make it's point.

By comparison, every major quest you did and the decisions you choose there are irrelevant.
Nature of the Beast, Paragon of her Kind, Broken Circle, Arl of Redcliffe.. it doesn't matter how you did those. At the end you will get troops for your army and Arl Eamon will support you no matter what.
Same goes for Landsmeet. No matter what you do there Ferelden will rally behind you.
Alistair may achieve his destiny and asume the throne, but that is entirely up to you as a player. You could just as easily put Anora on the throne, have Alistair exiled or executed and it would have zero effect on the final battle.
Morrigan plays no role in how any of those decisions play out, they are all decided by you as the player, you do not need Morrigan in any way shape or form to complete the game regardless of the choices you make. 

You obviously don't think much of Morrigan as a character.
She is well written, well acted, but that is not enough of a reason to cannonize her story. There is enough story here that to cannonize some Jerry Springer episode about wilder trash sleeping her way to the top is lazy writing, and so BTDT where is my T-shirt. You are mistaken this it not about Morrigan it is about the, depending on how the player plays the game, minimal role a minor character plays in the story. This is about a minor character with very ho hum story arc that the player can choose to avoid and it will have NO impact on the story in any way shape or form.

Maybe you tried romancing her once and didn't like how it turned out or perhaps she just isn't your cup of tea.
I roll fems exclusivly bud so Morrigan romance is not an option i would choose, and only have i rolled a male long enough to get "Witch gone Wild" at which point i promptly deleted the character. 

That's perfectly fine and to each his own.
Agreed.

However, just because you don't like a certain character doesn't mean they aren't important in the game itself, and Morrigan's role is rather important in the grand scheme of things in DA:O.
No it is not she is a minor character who can be relegated to obscurity and the game still plays just fine with out her.

My point is if you choose to excercise the DR then by all means you should have all the Morrigan you can stomach, but i want my decision to ignore her to be valid as well. I do not care if the next game or hopefully DLC deals with Morrigan if that is the choice you made, but if i did not make that choice then i do not want to have to deal with the effects of a completely optional, and irrelevant event. Does this mean i will not buy the next game, more than likely i will, but they will really have to work to sell me on the DR and it effects especially considering that in 16 plays i have excercised the option only twice, and of those 16 plays Morrigan has been relegated to obscurity 14 times. The continuation of the DR effects seems cheap, and chasing fan boy/girl (as is the case) money.

Asai

[Nerdage]

BG spoiler, just so you know...

What the child will be depends entirely on what a soul is, which is a vague concept at the best of times. Is consciousness related to the soul? As in, will the child wake up and go "It's good to be back", remembering it's life as a dragon, or will it simply grant the child some innate power, as in BG with Bhaal's connection to the PC. Seeing as souls don't actually exist it's a judgement entirely up to Bioware.

As for this whole Morrigan debate that's arisen, the characters are only as important as you make them. If you accept the ritual then Morrigan can become a very important character, but if you kick her from the party at the start of the game and refuse her ritual then of course she isn't important to you. None of the characters are forced to become important. Given that it's a game largely centered around choice I'd be very much put out if they decided to ignore the decisions I made, that doesn't mean I need to see the consequences of every choice I made, I just don't want to see the consequences of decisions I didn't make, I'd rather they just forget the Morrigan story entirely than just assume I did the ritual and make it the focus of the next game.

Modifié par nerdage, 09 mai 2010 - 01:15 .

[webbedfeet]

Except we're not quite sure she wants to get knocked up to better her position. She could be doing it for important reasons like, I don't know, saving the soul of the God of Beauty from being irrevocably destroyed like all the others. Which would be very oh so important to the plot. We don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but that's not your regular trailer trash purpose, imo. This is not something that can be relegated to obscurity, despite what your decisions in the world are (because, let's face it, if the next game is in Orlais most of those WILL be irrelevant). She may not be important to the individual PC's story unless you decide to make it so, but it's obvious that she IS important to the overall plot by any kind of literary measure, and have been stated thus many times by the devs. I'm also not quite sure how continuing this would be appealing to the lowest common denominator. We're not all in here for her ******. And if you're saying Bioware shouldn't listen to the fanbase when saying 'chasing fangirl/fanboy money', well, I am sorry to say that we're no more 'fangirl/fanboy' than those who didn't do the DR. (I really can't see the similarities between the DR and trailer trash sleeping her way to the top, either. Both involve manipulating people into knocking the female participant up, but the dynamics of each can't be more different. I know women like that and most of them are....er, different.)



tl; dr : There are plenty of ways to say 'I want my option to feed someone else to the Archdemon to have an effect on the game world/plot' without implying that the fans who wish the opposite are barely literate, slobbering-at-mouth tasteless fools who will throw money at everything a company produces, you know.



We can simply agree to disagree.

[Xandurpein]

I would be perfectly alright with a sequel in which we see more of Morrigan, but where, if a player DID do the Dark ritual, Morrigan simply continue to say that the subject is off limits.



Not everything must be explained. There are things that work best if they are mysteries. Is there really a Maker? Is the tales of Andraste true? What is the real nature of the Old gods? Was there a god child? Let's simply keep some mysteries as mysteries.

[Terra_Ex]

asaiasai wrote...
I roll fems exclusivly bud so Morrigan
romance is not an option i would choose, and only have i rolled a male
long enough to get "Witch gone Wild" at which point i promptly deleted
the character. 

so you're making judgements on a character without having experienced or even attempting to explore the unique dialogue available to both genders - and then claim to have fully understood her character with your one-sided view, that's some great logic you have there.

asaiasai wrote...

Morrigan can be completely blown off as a character there is nothing that involves Morrigan that can not be avoided. I know because i leave Morrigan at camp 90% of the time. After Lotharin i go to the tower get Wynne and that is the last time Morrigan leaves camp. The grimware does not have to be found and given to Morrigan. Flemeth does not have to be confronted as Morrigan requests. The dark ritual can be refused. To make the next game all about a character or an event that for the most part can be totally ignored, i have no idea what it is really but i presume it is nothing more than the quest for more money. It is either plot hole where if you leave Morrigan in camp interact with her at no time she still comes to you with information concerning the ritual, or you are being played from the very beginning, in either case plot hole (naughty writers), or played (naughty Flemeth and Morrigan) is all the reason i need to avoid the DR entirely. It is all the reason i need to leave Morrigan at camp, she can not die but she can be ignored, and i do. I just feel that Morrigan is an over rated character, that as much of a fan of the DAO series as i am i would hate like hell to have anymore to do with Morrigan or the Morrigan effect.

At this point in the game i am just creating characters to move to Awakenings so i just let Allistair or Loghain take the final blow. i do not care which it is so long as i have another character to move into Awakenings.

I have used Morrigan for a few characters, and while everybody seems to be taken in by Morrigans "softeneing" i am not. She is amoralistic, self centered, shallow, wilder trash, looking to trick someone into knocking her up to better her position or power. How is it possible that this could be considered interesting, as this is so everyday? To make this cannon, i am sorry, is just appealing to the lowest common denominator.

I am not opposed to if the PC makes the decision to do the DR that this will be something the specific PC will have to deal with, but to force this as cannon with a completely optional character, and a completely optional event is just lazy story telling. It would imho seem to me that cannonizing this event is just Bioware and EA cashing in on the franchise that at that precise moment would start circling the drain, as EA has been known to do.

I may not be the typical player but i have 16 total characters, 2 dark ritual, 6 ultimate sacrifice, 8 that can carry over with various story endings. The game can be played to completein with out ever doing anything more with Morrigan than to leave her in camp after Lotharin, she is no more or less expendable than any other character, except for the fact you can not be entirely rid of her, kind of like herpes.

Asai

Spin it however you like, your argument is simply an extension of "I want my choices to be reflected in DA2", that's fine and perfectly understandable. This point can be made in a perfectly civil and non-inflammatory manner, such as Xandurpein's posts on the subject. You however are deliberately baiting anyone who accepted the dark ritual simply because it doesn't fit in with your playthroughs - even if you've completed the game 100 times - its irrelevant as far as continuity is concerned - personal experience counts for nothing until Bioware decides what will happen with DA2. When Bioware make an announcement on that, maybe you'll have something to complain about. Your arguments have descended into an anti-Morrigan rant laced with crass language and imagery directed toward her fans which results in your posts turning into something of a tantrum and as such any further discussion with you is pointless.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 09 mai 2010 - 02:18 .

[Master Shiori]

asaiasai wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

asaiasai wrote...

Morrigan can be completely blown off as a character there is nothing that involves Morrigan that can not be avoided.

Asai

Nothing important that involves Morrigan?
Correct. Glad you understand.


Hardly, and if you seriously think there's nothing important about the charatcer the it's sadly you who doesn't understand.

How exactly would you describe the dark ritual then?
Optional nothing more nothing less.


Everything is optional, except becoming a Grey Warden and slaying the Archdemon. Just because you have the option of refusing something doesn't make that decision pointeless or without consequence.

Morrigan has the most important and unavoidable plot point in the entire game.
False. I would like to hear just what exact plot point you are talking about. Her entire story arc is optional, at the discretion of the player as to how little or much she is involved. Other than like herpes she can not be totally made to go away, and this is hardly a reason to base an entire game, maybe some 5 dollar DLC and i am still being generous at 5 bucks. Also i can avoid this purchase and still anticipate DA2 but if DA2 cannonizes the Morrigan story arc i am screwed unless they make a way to again minimize any Morrigan influence by player choice.


You know well of what I'm talking about. And yes, it is up to players discretion how much each character will be involved in the story. That however doesn't mean there aren't parts where ceirtain characters MUST be involved, regardless of your relationship with them. Dark Ritual is such a part for Morrigan. You cannot avoid it and whatever you decide it will affect the last battle. THAT is what makes it and Morrigan important.

How you deal with her offer pretty much determines the fate of your character.
In what way? I leave Morrigan at camp and her involvment in the game is minimized. She is completely irrelevant to the story as i have proven by leaving her at camp or dismissing her entirely. Refusing the DR in all but 2 of 16 completed plays. She is only integral if you integrate her into the game other than that she can watch wood burn or help Allistair make supper.


In the following way:
1) accept her offer and you'll survive the final battle
2) refuse it and you're likely to die

Third option exists but, like i said, you only find out about it afterwards. It isn't know at the time the ritual is offered.

Yes, you can refuse the offer and let someone else die in your place, but that's metagaming knowledge. When you're presented with the ritual for the first time you only know of 2 possible outcomes: sire a child with Morrigan and live or die killing the Archdemon. You cannot know how the final battle plays out. You can't guess what will happen to Riordan or Alistair/Loghain. What if they all die during the battle or you reach the Archdemon and find that, due to the situation on the battlefield, none of them are in position to take that final blow?
Anyone who's playing Dragon Age for the first time and would rather see a happy ending for his/her Warden then choose UC WILL agree to Morrigan's offer.
Upon completion of my very first game I took the final blow, so this is just a generalization from your particular perspective.  The only reason i stopped taking the final blows myself is that i wanted several characters to move into Awakenings. No i could not guess what the outcome would be but i knew that involving Morrigan was not an option i wanted to excercise. After 16 plays i can not help but meta game, it is the way it is, and after 16 plays there is nothing that involved Morrigan that i can not skip and still complete the game.


After 16 plays yes, you cannot help but know how things can play out.
But for the sake of our argument, let's say you wanted your character to survive the Archdemon on your first playthrough. Would you have any choice other than to accept Morrigan's offer?

That is what makes her so important. She's the only guarantee you have of surviving.
False, I will survive because either Loghain or Allistair will take the final blow so again your argument fails to make it's point.


Does it? And I supoose you had some guarantee that either Loghain or Alistair will be ABLE to take that final blow when the time comes?
I'm arguing from the perspective of someone who's faced with the offer of DR for the first time. You're looking at it as someone who's finished the game 16 times and knows every possible choice ever presented.

By comparison, every major quest you did and the decisions you choose there are irrelevant.
Nature of the Beast, Paragon of her Kind, Broken Circle, Arl of Redcliffe.. it doesn't matter how you did those. At the end you will get troops for your army and Arl Eamon will support you no matter what.
Same goes for Landsmeet. No matter what you do there Ferelden will rally behind you.
Alistair may achieve his destiny and asume the throne, but that is entirely up to you as a player. You could just as easily put Anora on the throne, have Alistair exiled or executed and it would have zero effect on the final battle.
Morrigan plays no role in how any of those decisions play out, they are all decided by you as the player, you do not need Morrigan in any way shape or form to complete the game regardless of the choices you make. 

Of course she doesn't play a role in any of them. I'm using these example to show you how your choices can ultimately be meaningless in the end, because whatever you decide the result will be what you need to succed in the final battle. There are no consequences for your actions here. During the dark ritual your choices will have consequences. Either you die or someone else will die if you refuse. If you accept everyone survives.

You obviously don't think much of Morrigan as a character.
She is well written, well acted, but that is not enough of a reason to cannonize her story. There is enough story here that to cannonize some Jerry Springer episode about wilder trash sleeping her way to the top is lazy writing, and so BTDT where is my T-shirt. You are mistaken this it not about Morrigan it is about the, depending on how the player plays the game, minimal role a minor character plays in the story. This is about a minor character with very ho hum story arc that the player can choose to avoid and it will have NO impact on the story in any way shape or form.

Maybe you tried romancing her once and didn't like how it turned out or perhaps she just isn't your cup of tea.
I roll fems exclusivly bud so Morrigan romance is not an option i would choose, and only have i rolled a male long enough to get "Witch gone Wild" at which point i promptly deleted the character. 

That's perfectly fine and to each his own.
Agreed.

However, just because you don't like a certain character doesn't mean they aren't important in the game itself, and Morrigan's role is rather important in the grand scheme of things in DA:O.
No it is not she is a minor character who can be relegated to obscurity and the game still plays just fine with out her.

My point is if you choose to excercise the DR then by all means you should have all the Morrigan you can stomach, but i want my decision to ignore her to be valid as well. I do not care if the next game or hopefully DLC deals with Morrigan if that is the choice you made, but if i did not make that choice then i do not want to have to deal with the effects of a completely optional, and irrelevant event. Does this mean i will not buy the next game, more than likely i will, but they will really have to work to sell me on the DR and it effects especially considering that in 16 plays i have excercised the option only twice, and of those 16 plays Morrigan has been relegated to obscurity 14 times. The continuation of the DR effects seems cheap, and chasing fan boy/girl (as is the case) money.

Asai

DLC won't deal with her since her voice actor isn't cheap. You don't hire actors like Claudia Black just to record a few extra lines of dialogue.

Bioware already  confirmed that as far as they're concerned Morrigan is the face of Dragon Age and that she will return in the future.

While I can apreciate that you want your choice to be acknowledged in a sequal (and Awakening epilogue clearly said our Warden's story isn't over we can count on seeing him/her again) but that is easier said then done.

As someone who played Baldur's Gate 1 in several possible ways and imported his characters and choices into Baldur's Gate 2, I can tell you that Bioware will gladly walk over your choices in DA2 if they so choose.
Their goal is to tell the best possible story and if that means canonizing ceirtain things then that's what they'll do.

In all honesty there is a big potential in pursuing the dark ritual storyline and I can't imagine the writers will simply ignore it.

This ofc is all speculation on our part until Bioware aither confirms or denies it.

What I can guarantee to you is that there's no way the can make a sequal that will ackowledge everyone's choices.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 09 mai 2010 - 02:38 .

[askanec]

It sounds pretty lame to give players the choice on the dark ritual, then override in the sequel whatever decisions the player made. They might as well exile Alistair, make Anora queen, get Loghain to join the Wardens, regardless of what you chose, because Bioware decides that will "tell the best possible story" and if you don't like it, tough luck.

Modifié par askanec, 09 mai 2010 - 02:34 .

[Master Shiori]

askanec wrote...

It sounds pretty lame to give players the choice on the dark ritual, then override in the sequel whatever decisions the player made. They might as well exile Alistair, make Anora queen, get Loghain to join the Wardens, regardless of what you chose, because Bioware decides that will "tell the best possible story" and if you don't like it, tough luck.

Pretty much yes.

However Dragon Age is a complex game with multiple choices and endings.

It would be extremely expensive and time consuming to make a sequal where all these choices are taken into account.

Canonizing the events in Origins would make things a lot easier.

This however is simply speculation at this point. Chances are Bioware may do something like this or may choose to go down an entirely different route.

Until we get official information about whatever they're planning we won't know for sure what'll happen.

[Xandurpein]

Master Shiori wrote...

askanec wrote...

It sounds pretty lame to give players the choice on the dark ritual, then override in the sequel whatever decisions the player made. They might as well exile Alistair, make Anora queen, get Loghain to join the Wardens, regardless of what you chose, because Bioware decides that will "tell the best possible story" and if you don't like it, tough luck.

Pretty much yes.

However Dragon Age is a complex game with multiple choices and endings.

It would be extremely expensive and time consuming to make a sequal where all these choices are taken into account.

Canonizing the events in Origins would make things a lot easier.

This however is simply speculation at this point. Chances are Bioware may do something like this or may choose to go down an entirely different route.

Until we get official information about whatever they're planning we won't know for sure what'll happen.

Moving the story sufficiently ahead so that all we know from the current era is stories and legends is equally workable. The stage is for example set so that no matter how you end it, there is a plausible reason to assume that there is no heir to throne of Fereldan. This means that they can reset the royal line no matter what choice the player did.

Fast forward into the future and the story of the god child could be a legend, like Andraste and only you would know the true answer. Morrigan can return even far into the future, especially if she has picked up any of Flemeth skills. Ready to lure a new generation of heores into believing they can get a happy ending with her.

Bioware has honed their skills since BG. Look at Mass Effect. Whatever you choose affects the future, but usually in a peripheral way, that don't interfere with the main plot.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 mai 2010 - 03:02 .

[Sarah1281]

Moving the story sufficiently ahead so that all we know from the current era is stories and legends is equally workable. The stage is for example set so that no matter how you end it, there is a plausible reason to assume that there is no heir to throne of Fereldan. This means that they can reset the royal line no matter what choice the player did.

Just like how no matter what you choose or what origin you are, Rica and Bhelen have little Endrin who can, if enough time passes for Alistair and Anora to die, be the dwarven King.

How you deal with her offer pretty much determines the fate of your character.

In what way? I leave Morrigan at camp and her involvment in the game is minimized. She is completely irrelevant to the story as i have proven by leaving her at camp or dismissing her entirely. Refusing the DR in all but 2 of 16 completed plays. She is only integral if you integrate her into the game other than that she can watch wood burn or help Allistair make supper.

This should actually be a no-brainer. If you turn down her offer, you or Loghain/Alistair dies. If not, they live. You can say that ignore her and thus she only shows up to offer the ritual, but other then Alistair who is forced to be a candidate for the throne, this is true of all of your other party members. Dog, Wynne, Sten, Leliana, Oghren, Zevran, and Shale all don't need to be recruited (or can be told to go away). Oghren is forced to be a party member for awhile but if you follow Bhelen/Harrowmont's map and then find Branka's journal, you could technically do without him and Morrigan is forced to be a party member for a short while as well. Are you honestly saying that everyone in your party - who have the potential for many more lines and time onscreen then any NPC - except Alistair is a minor character?



I'm not really a Morrigan fangirl and her romance isn't my favorite. That said, her wanting to get pregnant does not make her a golddigger. Lots of women in the world want to have children and that doesn't mean that they are a lower class of people. Specifically, what Morrigan wants is to preserve the soul of the Old God. For what, we don't know. She could want to possess it, though I don't think that's possible for her. She could honestly just be trying to preserve it. She could want to raise it to be loyal to her and then do who-knows-what with the power. Since what you're talking about is women that try to trap men by having a baby and Morrigan never wants to see the father again, that's a horrible comparison.



And then there's your insistence on calling her white trash. Seriously, this is a medieval setting and not only was that term not applicable then but if you want to talk about poor people then you'd need to refer to pretty much all of Lothering, as well. We can't even say that Morrigan IS poor as she doesn't go into town much and therefore can get much of what she needs in the Wilds. You know who else does that? All of the Dalish elves. An entire group of white trash, by your definition. Morrigan CAN'T live among the rest of society as she's an apostate and would either be killed or sent off to be imprisoned by the Circle.



I don't see why you're being so belittling and insulting about her. You don't have to like her but that doesn't mean you have to be so rude about it.

[Korva]

As I have said before, if they canonize that one ending at the expense of the others, I will not buy any future games. Continuity is of great importance to me, as is having choices. What is the point in giving people the false pretense of a choice if it is then promptly ignored and a "One True Way" of playing the previous game is imposed on everyone? The ultimate sacrifice is a fantastic climax and ending to the Warden's story, IMO, and it is "my" canon. I'd like to continue exploring Thedas, but not at the cost of having my character's story retconned or entirely ignored.

If that skanky swamp b*tch is so damn important for the franchise, she should have been the protagonist from the start. I have zero interest in seeing the actual protagonists, my characters, being little more than enablers for some writer's pet NPC I personally cannot stand. It should have been possible to kill her, it's not like there is neither cause nor opportunity for it.

Modifié par Korva, 09 mai 2010 - 04:05 .

[Nerdage]

Master Shiori wrote...

askanec wrote...

It sounds pretty lame to give players the choice on the dark ritual, then override in the sequel whatever decisions the player made. They might as well exile Alistair, make Anora queen, get Loghain to join the Wardens, regardless of what you chose, because Bioware decides that will "tell the best possible story" and if you don't like it, tough luck.

Pretty much yes.

However Dragon Age is a complex game with multiple choices and endings.

It would be extremely expensive and time consuming to make a sequal where all these choices are taken into account.

Canonizing the events in Origins would make things a lot easier.

This however is simply speculation at this point. Chances are Bioware may do something like this or may choose to go down an entirely different route.

Until we get official information about whatever they're planning we won't know for sure what'll happen.

If that were the position they'd take they probably shouldn't have
bitten off more than they could handle to begin with, but yeah, let's not start judging them before they do anything.

Modifié par nerdage, 09 mai 2010 - 04:06 .

[Master Shiori]

Korva wrote...

As I have said before, if they canonize that one ending at the expense of the others, I will not buy any future games. Continuity is of great importance to me, as is having choices. What is the point in giving people the false pretense of a choice if it is then promptly ignored and a "One True Way" of playing the previous game is imposed on everyone? The ultimate sacrifice is a fantastic climax and ending to the Warden's story, IMO, and it is "my" canon. I'd like to continue exploring Thedas, but not at the cost of having my character's story retconned or entirely ignored.

If that skanky swamp b*tch is so damn important for the franchise, she should have been the protagonist from the start. I have zero interest in seeing the actual protagonists, my characters, being little more than enablers for some writer's pet NPC I personally cannot stand. It should have been possible to kill her, it's not like there is neither cause nor opportunity for it.

Fair points.

On the subject of Morrigan however, the fact hat she cannot be killed off or removed from the story completely should give you a good indication of how important the writers consider her to be. The fact hat they'd go and say how she'll be back in the future clearly shows they have plans for her.

A good example of a similar character in previous Bioware titles would be Imoen in Baldur's Gate series. She had an important role in BG2 regardless of what happened to her in the first game. You could have her kicked out of the party or even have her die, but she would still be back in the sequal.

Similar thing can happen with Oghren in Origins and Awakening. If your approval with him is really low you can fight and kill him. However, if that pc got imported into Awakening, then Oghren would still meet you in Vigil's Keep and would behave like nothing happened in Origins.

EDIT:

Ultimate sacrifice may be a preffered ending for some, but it has 1 major flaw: if made canon it would prevent Bioware from ever using the Origins Warden in the future.
And considering that every Awakening epilogue for imported Wardens says their story isn't over clearly shows that Bioware might allow us to use them again.

With dark ritual the situation is a lot simpler. Your Warden is guaranteed to have survived and can be used again. Who slept with Morrigan might not even be important and could be left to the players to decide through dialogue.
What's more all your companions are also alive and can be reunited with you if players so desire.
For those who don't wish to continue using their old Warden there can always be the option of creating a new character, just like in Awakening.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 09 mai 2010 - 04:54 .

[Xandurpein]

Master Shiori wrote...

With dark ritual the situation is a lot simpler. Your Warden is guaranteed to have survived and can be used again. Who slept with Morrigan might not even be important and could be left to the players to decide through dialogue.
What's more all your companions are also alive and can be reunited with you if players so desire.
For those who don't wish to continue using their old Warden there can always be the option of creating a new character, just like in Awakening.

It's not that simple. Either someone slept with Morrigan or no one did. Please accept that for a lot of people that IS important. So bring back Morrigan, I'm all for it, but i would be very disapointed if they canonized the Dark Ritual.

[Master Shiori]

Xandurpein wrote...

It's not that simple. Either someone slept with Morrigan or no one did. Please accept that for a lot of people that IS important. So bring back Morrigan, I'm all for it, but i would be very disapointed if they canonized the Dark Ritual.

I can accept that.

I'm not trying to force my version on anyone here.

Your idea about moving the whole story forward so that everything we did in Origins becomes history or myth is perfectly plausible, as long as Bioware doesn't want to continue the Warden's story.

If any of my posts came off as offensive to you or anyone else then I apologize for that.

I consider every opinion here to be perfectly valid as long as it's presented in a respectful manner.

[Xandurpein]

Master Shiori wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

It's not that simple. Either someone slept with Morrigan or no one did. Please accept that for a lot of people that IS important. So bring back Morrigan, I'm all for it, but i would be very disapointed if they canonized the Dark Ritual.

I can accept that.

I'm not trying to force my version on anyone here.

Your idea about moving the whole story forward so that everything we did in Origins becomes history or myth is perfectly plausible, as long as Bioware doesn't want to continue the Warden's story.

If any of my posts came off as offensive to you or anyone else then I apologize for that.

I consider every opinion here to be perfectly valid as long as it's presented in a respectful manner.

Much as I love my current Warden, I think that starting over with a new character in DA2 is probably for the best. Let me be frank say that I write this with some regret. But the talent/level system is obviously bursting at the seams anyway. Add 15-20 more levels and make it meaningful seems difficult to implement, even if we disregard the problems with all choices made.

I have not yet seen you argue in a way that I felt was rude or inapropriate, impassioned maybe, but so do I often enough. I can only hope that you feel the same about my posts.

[Master Shiori]

Xandurpein wrote...

Much as I love my current Warden, I think that starting over with a new character in DA2 is probably for the best. Let me be frank say that I write this with some regret. But the talent/level system is obviously bursting at the seams anyway. Add 15-20 more levels and make it meaningful seems difficult to implement, even if we disregard the problems with all choices made.

I have not yet seen you argue in a way that I felt was rude or inapropriate, impassioned maybe, but so do I often enough. I can only hope that you feel the same about my posts.

You are correct about talent/level system bursting at the seams by the end of Awakening. If there is an option to import our Warden into DA2 then my guess is that it would work in a similar manner to the one in ME2: our choices and romances carry over and everything else starts from scratch.

Over the last few months Bioware has beeen asking the community to share their thoughts on different classes in Origins and their respective abilities, which makes me believe they plan to change things in the sequal.
If that is the case then transfering our character's level and abilities into DA2 would be pointless anyway.

And Xandurpein, you and I may not agree on some things but I'm always glad to hear your opinion. You have always been able to bring your point across while maintaining the air of civility and respect for others.

[Xandurpein]

Master Shiori wrote...

And Xandurpein, you and I may not agree on some things but I'm always glad to hear your opinion. You have always been able to bring your point across while maintaining the air of civility and respect for others.

Likewise. Now let's not get all mushy, and go back to having different opinions shall we.

[bl00dsh0t]

Terra_Ex wrote...

asaiasai wrote...
I roll fems exclusivly bud so Morrigan
romance is not an option i would choose, and only have i rolled a male
long enough to get "Witch gone Wild" at which point i promptly deleted
the character.

so you're making judgements on a character without having experienced or even attempting to explore the unique dialogue available to both genders - and then claim to have fully understood her character with your one-sided view, that's some great logic you have there.

asaiasai wrote...

Morrigan can be completely blown off as a character there is nothing that involves Morrigan that can not be avoided. I know because i leave Morrigan at camp 90% of the time. After Lotharin i go to the tower get Wynne and that is the last time Morrigan leaves camp. The grimware does not have to be found and given to Morrigan. Flemeth does not have to be confronted as Morrigan requests. The dark ritual can be refused. To make the next game all about a character or an event that for the most part can be totally ignored, i have no idea what it is really but i presume it is nothing more than the quest for more money. It is either plot hole where if you leave Morrigan in camp interact with her at no time she still comes to you with information concerning the ritual, or you are being played from the very beginning, in either case plot hole (naughty writers), or played (naughty Flemeth and Morrigan) is all the reason i need to avoid the DR entirely. It is all the reason i need to leave Morrigan at camp, she can not die but she can be ignored, and i do. I just feel that Morrigan is an over rated character, that as much of a fan of the DAO series as i am i would hate like hell to have anymore to do with Morrigan or the Morrigan effect.

At this point in the game i am just creating characters to move to Awakenings so i just let Allistair or Loghain take the final blow. i do not care which it is so long as i have another character to move into Awakenings.

I have used Morrigan for a few characters, and while everybody seems to be taken in by Morrigans "softeneing" i am not. She is amoralistic, self centered, shallow, wilder trash, looking to trick someone into knocking her up to better her position or power. How is it possible that this could be considered interesting, as this is so everyday? To make this cannon, i am sorry, is just appealing to the lowest common denominator.

I am not opposed to if the PC makes the decision to do the DR that this will be something the specific PC will have to deal with, but to force this as cannon with a completely optional character, and a completely optional event is just lazy story telling. It would imho seem to me that cannonizing this event is just Bioware and EA cashing in on the franchise that at that precise moment would start circling the drain, as EA has been known to do.

I may not be the typical player but i have 16 total characters, 2 dark ritual, 6 ultimate sacrifice, 8 that can carry over with various story endings. The game can be played to completein with out ever doing anything more with Morrigan than to leave her in camp after Lotharin, she is no more or less expendable than any other character, except for the fact you can not be entirely rid of her, kind of like herpes.

Asai

Spin it however you like, your argument is simply an extension of "I want my choices to be reflected in DA2", that's fine and perfectly understandable. This point can be made in a perfectly civil and non-inflammatory manner, such as Xandurpein's posts on the subject. You however are deliberately baiting anyone who accepted the dark ritual simply because it doesn't fit in with your playthroughs - even if you've completed the game 100 times - its irrelevant as far as continuity is concerned - personal experience counts for nothing until Bioware decides what will happen with DA2. When Bioware make an announcement on that, maybe you'll have something to complain about. Your arguments have descended into an anti-Morrigan rant laced with crass language and imagery directed toward her fans which results in your posts turning into something of a tantrum and as such any further discussion with you is pointless.

Amen ;D

To get back to the discussion at hand for a while:

Nu-Nu wrote...

Will it be evil or holy?

What nature the ogb will/could excibit really depends on the will of the writers and I would hope it has something to do with how morrigan has or has not developed during the game. I.e. if she was left at camp all game or sent home and her approval is stuck at neutral or lower she may have different, more sinister ways to handle the child while if her approval is higher she may have other plans. This may very well just be wishfull thinking on my part but one can always hope

Still if ME2 and awakening are any indication of how bioware handles continuity they will attempt to avoid continuity issues by detaching you from your old companions to a degree and make you visit different locales to not have to make thousands of references to your actions in orzhammar, brecillian forrest, etc. Perhaps the OGB situation will be handled a bit like wrex in ME2, if dead/nonexistant another character simply takes its place in the story. Much like how anora and alistair say the exakt same lines after the choice between who rules is made at the landsmeet.

What we either way cannot expect to happen is that it becomes the main plot unless they actually have the balls to make it canon and alienate a lot of players. I am personally one of the "fanboys" of morrigan, according to asai a complete retard thinking only with my penis, and still I believe that making ogb canon and the main plot is not the way to go.

But lets face it, IF there will be a canon, the ritual has an awful lot of dark fantasy appeal and morrigan has been, by the devs, repeatedly called a central character in the franchise. Thus if da2 is canonized it is the most likely scenario IF the warden continues to be the main character. That in itself is still a big IF, as many have stated before, until we get to know more about da2.

So lets all hope there is the warden in DA2, and that all our choices will matter. And if not? Ill read reviews and make my decision whether or not its worth buying based on player feedback, not throw a tantrum like a 5yr old who's toy got taken away. Gamemaking is not simple, especially not with this many variables so getting too riled up about what carries over and what not is just plain ignorance regarding the realities of coding such a massive project. Some things will fail to carry over, they cannot possibly consider everything nor can they be sure all combinations of flags wont shut down some of the references like what happened with the morrigan epilogue in awakening ;D (btw patch that already bioware xD)

Sigh looks like i wrote a bunch of crap, my sincerest apologies to anyone that read it