120 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

I think most of us could agree that the best scenario if DA2 is dealing with the Warden still, is that there is a measure of continuity and consequences for those that did the Ritual AND for those who did not do the Ritual. That would be ideal- if thats what they end up doing, nobody but Bioware knows.  Of course though, I wouldn't be surprised if they take the BG route and canonize stuff too.  The devs haven't said either way, all they have mentioned is that we haven't seen the last of Morrigan.

My personal hope would be that maybe Bioware could boil down the main endgame choices and have 6 or so "origins" for DA2 based on how you finished the 1st game and maybe one new one for new characters. So your beginning is unique and then it all boils down to a common point like Ostagar does for Origins. Hopefully we'll know more come E3.

Modifié par Brockololly, 09 mai 2010 - 08:12 .

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

I think most of us could agree that the best scenario if DA2 is dealing with the Warden still, is that there is a measure of continuity and consequences for those that did the Ritual AND for those who did not do the Ritual. That would be ideal- if thats what they end up doing, nobody but Bioware knows.  Of course though, I wouldn't be surprised if they take the BG route and canonize stuff too.  The devs haven't said either way, all they have mentioned is that we haven't seen the last of Morrigan.

My personal hope would be that maybe Bioware could boil down the main endgame choices and have 6 or so "origins" for DA2 based on how you finished the 1st game and maybe one new one for new characters. So your beginning is unique and then it all boils down to a common point like Ostagar does for Origins. Hopefully we'll know more come E3.

So turn our choices into potential origins?

Hmm, that might just be our best bet at keeping everyone happy, asuming it can be done right.

Great idea Brock. If Bioware actually pulls off something like that it would be great.

Here's to hoping...

[Bootsykk]

I don't think either. I'm actually rather confused on what it's going to be. Supposedly it's supposed to have the mind of an intelligent dragon that the Maker got pissed at because the Tevinter Imperium was worshipping it.

I think, rather, it's just going to be happy it's free of becoming an archdemon.

[tom2504]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I only read the original post.

Morrigan was loving and said she wanted to raise the child to be good. And I believe her intentions.

But I think Flemeth played her.

Morrigan goes with Warden. Flemeth tricks Warden and Morrigan into slaying her mortal body. Morrigan is impregnated and gives birth to tainted child.

Flemeth possesses tainted child.

There's your plot for Dragon Age 2. Flemeth is the next Archdemon.

That's my guess.

Makes sense

[Tindl]

Asai

DLC won't deal with her since her voice actor isn't cheap. You don't hire actors like Claudia Black just to record a few extra lines of dialogue.

Bioware already  confirmed that as far as they're concerned Morrigan is the face of Dragon Age and that she will return in the future.

Hope I got the quote thing right - didn't want all the rest of it there.
As Asai says, BW have paid Claudia Black probably a lot of money to do Morrigan so far. However, my thoughts were the exact opposite. I thought they'd probably not pay her again, so Morrigan probably won't be seen again. But then, according to his last comment, they intend to use her again.

So yeah, I think that Morrigan's baby, whether t'is your Wardens kid, Alistair's kid, or some other guys kid, will come into play somewhere.

[asaiasai]

First off I would like to apologize as my "internal governor" was on vacation this weekend with his South American mistress, and has only just arrived back in town, with a hearty smile I should add. I forget sometimes that words can cut deeper than any blade. I wrote what I wrote in an attempt to be humorous, yet still make my point. There are a few who took exception to my words, but I still stand by my original point. There is not a single character that can be claimed as non-expendable, and upon further reflection I will even add that the PC is expendable, you just have to wait until the end to spend the PC.

There several outcomes to DAO that the player controls, who lives who dies, who rules who rots, who is in the party who stays at camp, who is fed to the dragons (AD or Anora). I have always argued on these forums for player choice whether it is romances, class builds, or story arcs. Which is exactly what I am arguing here, I am not saying that anyone who exercised the DR is wrong, I am not saying any one outcome is superior, only that the game gives the player certain choices and that to dismiss those choices because they will be difficult to program later is lazy on the developer's part. I am poking them in the eye more than the fans, as the customer I want what I want, the difficulty in programming the choices is not my problem, and I am more concerned with the game reflecting the choices I made. The developers gave me the choices, some of the choices I agonized over, never really happy with them sometimes but I want the game to stay true to the foundation the developers laid down, choices have consequences. The whole "hook" with DAO is that choices have consequences and as the player I do not care if the choices make the game more difficult, I would actually prefer that as another added layer of difficulty, or ease. No demon baby one less boss you have to fight or one less party member that can be recruited. This or something similar would be acceptable to me as I am sure it would be to just about everyone here. I do not care if the next game involves any of my wardens they could be meat rotting in a box for all I care, a historical foot note, but what is important is that their choices are reflected in the world my new warden or whatever inhabits.

It is true that I do not like Morrigan as a character, I find her to be a self serving, amoralistic, narcissist with delusions of grandeur who can only be trusted to do one thing, what ever is in her best interest, regardless of the penalty someone else may have to pay. This does not make a complex character, as a matter of fact this makes the character even simpler because their motivations are so transparent. She will always pick what is in her best interest that is what makes her a simple character because you will always know the answer to the question before you ask it, as such you will only have to ask it for confirmation of your initial suspicions. There are NO surprises in Morrigan's character, none, even the ring is trite I can not believe people fall for that, she wants to keep track of you nothing more, so that if you try to locate her in the future she can sense you coming and move along. Morrigan is a well written and acted character, I have said that before here and in other threads on this forum, but that is not enough of a reason to canonize her particular story event, considering that this event (DR) is entirely an option. There can be NO demon child if she does not sleep with either of the new wardens, her options are limited to, the male PC, Alistair, or Loghain, she will actually tell you the Riordan (sp) are not viable because he has been exposed to the taint for to long. The DR can not be done unless you the PC intervene and convince (serious persuasion check here) either of the new wardens to participate. Considering that both wardens would rather take the final blow themselves than spend the night with Morrigan (a sentiment I share) I find it unlikely that she managed to sneak off with either. We have all seen this conversation at least once but if I need to SS or fraps the entire conversation, for the sake of this discussion, with either warden so be it, that right there makes the event optional, period, there can be no further arguments to whether the DR is optional or not, only that it is player choice . That is enough for me to say that to "canonize" the DR is nonsense. For the developers and writers to do anything to canonize this particular choice is a serious plot hole or as most fantasy writers like to fall back on "a wizard did it" defense. I further submit that if this event is canonized it is simplly the developers trying to "cash" in on the franchise to snatch a few quick easy bucks at the expense of the quality of the story, as EA has been known to do. Understand the motivations of the people around you and you understand them.

Asai
 

Modifié par asaiasai, 10 mai 2010 - 06:19 .

[Xandurpein]

asaiasai wrote...

There can be NO demon child if she does not sleep with either of the new wardens, her options are limited to, the male PC, Alistair, or Loghain, she will actually tell you the Riordan (sp) are not viable because he has been exposed to the taint for to long. The DR can not be done unless you the PC intervene and convince (serious persuasion check here) either of the new wardens to participate. Considering that both wardens would rather take the final blow themselves than spend the night with Morrigan (a sentiment I share) I find it unlikely that she managed to sneak off with either.

Strictly speaking, it's even simpler than that. If the character who kills the Archdemon dies, then there can be no God baby. But you do raise an important point, that I think many fans of Morrigan and the god baby theme misses. The situation is very different if you are playing as a male or a female character. As a male character you primarily face the choice of doing the DR yourself or not. That is not an option for a female character.

I think that male players need to realize that having made DR canon can be a completely different, and much more painful blow for a female gamer playing a female character they identfy strongly with. Seeing your favorite companion, and maybe love interest, being abused by a canon, can be much worse than having your own character's choices being abused by a canon.

For every player who played a female character they strongly identified with and who loved Alistair (and face it, the boards indicates that this is NOT a small group of players) the dilemma in the Dark ritual is a poison goblet full of pain. To make a canon walk all over that situation is really disrespectful in my humble opinion.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 10 mai 2010 - 06:36 .

[Brockololly]

All I'll add is that it seems we would all like our choices/actions carried forward and to have the Warden deal with the consequences of said actions in DA2. Unfortunately, going on past Bioware games (besides ME) it is not unlikely that they'll canonize certain things for DA2 should the story call for it. Ultimately I think the DR and possible Old God Baby is the one big plot thread left dangling for those that did it in DAO.

Even if you didn't do the DR, the devs have said we'll see Morrigan again so whether you think she is important or not it seems the devs think she is important enough that we haven't seen the last of her.

[Xandurpein]

Brockololly wrote...

Even if you didn't do the DR, the devs have said we'll see Morrigan again so whether you think she is important or not it seems the devs think she is important enough that we haven't seen the last of her.

I have no problem with seeing more of Morrigan. I'm all for it, if they don't change her character. I'd rather see her stay as the temptress who lead men to their doom, than give us some simple happy end, that ruins the story. It's making the god baby canon that I'm against.

[bl00dsh0t]

Well I think we can conclude this discussion with :



- Morrigan is coming back in some form, due to David Gaider literally tellin our little morrigan fanclub in the old forum that we have not seem the last of her



- Canonization is overall agreed to be a crappy idea, and I think bioware knows very well how the community feels about it. I'm confident that they will remove the story from ferelden in order to avoid too many of the minor decisions to matter.



- IF there will be OGB it will most likely be a sidequest, not the main plot unless bioware really wants to alienate far too many players.

Still i dont think canonization is to be viewed as a 100% negative thing, even if they don't go my way. From what I have heard about baldurs gate 2 was canonized for the sake of providing a good story and I believe its better to have a good standardized story that gives loads of good moral choices to make while staying true to some of the decisions we made instead of trying to appease all the fans and failing miserably. Still they have laid a good framework with flags in your saves so that they can transfer all of your choices so I think that is the plan at least.



- I think we all agree at this point that yes DR can be ignored to a large extent, if not fully, but it does serve to some extent to keep characters alive for future games. Thus I think those that killed off loghain, made allistair king and then let him die killing the archdemon while anora is locked up leave a lot of potential plotholes to be filled. If handled well it is of course quite a respectable feat but it is just such a complex compilation of flags that it would not surprise me if something goes weird xD



What also worries me a bit was how awakening made, despite not that many flags to handle, the mistake to not be able to import your choices from the ultimate sacrifice ending so that those that died killing the archdemon and made anora queen somehow got shafted. Lets just hope that they do allow a continuation of "your" story of thedas even if you died.



And lastly concerning changing/not changing her character: Well she does develop during the game, for better or worse, so I think how she in the end winds up returning to dragon age should be influenced by your choices to a large degree. Still the "lived happily ever after" ending is not something that should be implemented, or at least be prohibitatively hard to achieve. It is somewhat OOC for her to suddenly change into a loving mother, she is awesome but she does have "slight" mother issues xD

[Master Shiori]

bl00dsh0t wrote...

Well I think we can conclude this discussion with :

- Morrigan is coming back in some form, due to David Gaider literally tellin our little morrigan fanclub in the old forum that we have not seem the last of her

- Canonization is overall agreed to be a crappy idea, and I think bioware knows very well how the community feels about it. I'm confident that they will remove the story from ferelden in order to avoid too many of the minor decisions to matter.

- IF there will be OGB it will most likely be a sidequest, not the main plot unless bioware really wants to alienate far too many players.
Still i dont think canonization is to be viewed as a 100% negative thing, even if they don't go my way. From what I have heard about baldurs gate 2 was canonized for the sake of providing a good story and I believe its better to have a good standardized story that gives loads of good moral choices to make while staying true to some of the decisions we made instead of trying to appease all the fans and failing miserably. Still they have laid a good framework with flags in your saves so that they can transfer all of your choices so I think that is the plan at least.

- I think we all agree at this point that yes DR can be ignored to a large extent, if not fully, but it does serve to some extent to keep characters alive for future games. Thus I think those that killed off loghain, made allistair king and then let him die killing the archdemon while anora is locked up leave a lot of potential plotholes to be filled. If handled well it is of course quite a respectable feat but it is just such a complex compilation of flags that it would not surprise me if something goes weird xD

What also worries me a bit was how awakening made, despite not that many flags to handle, the mistake to not be able to import your choices from the ultimate sacrifice ending so that those that died killing the archdemon and made anora queen somehow got shafted. Lets just hope that they do allow a continuation of "your" story of thedas even if you died.

And lastly concerning changing/not changing her character: Well she does develop during the game, for better or worse, so I think how she in the end winds up returning to dragon age should be influenced by your choices to a large degree. Still the "lived happily ever after" ending is not something that should be implemented, or at least be prohibitatively hard to achieve. It is somewhat OOC for her to suddenly change into a loving mother, she is awesome but she does have "slight" mother issues xD

Very good summary that adressed all the major points.

[Tirigon]

What about that: Morrigan gets killed on her travel before the child is born, both are dead, problem solved?

[Xandurpein]

Master Shiori wrote...

bl00dsh0t wrote...

Well I think we can conclude this discussion with :

- Morrigan is coming back in some form, due to David Gaider literally tellin our little morrigan fanclub in the old forum that we have not seem the last of her

- Canonization is overall agreed to be a crappy idea, and I think bioware knows very well how the community feels about it. I'm confident that they will remove the story from ferelden in order to avoid too many of the minor decisions to matter.

- IF there will be OGB it will most likely be a sidequest, not the main plot unless bioware really wants to alienate far too many players.
Still i dont think canonization is to be viewed as a 100% negative thing, even if they don't go my way. From what I have heard about baldurs gate 2 was canonized for the sake of providing a good story and I believe its better to have a good standardized story that gives loads of good moral choices to make while staying true to some of the decisions we made instead of trying to appease all the fans and failing miserably. Still they have laid a good framework with flags in your saves so that they can transfer all of your choices so I think that is the plan at least.

- I think we all agree at this point that yes DR can be ignored to a large extent, if not fully, but it does serve to some extent to keep characters alive for future games. Thus I think those that killed off loghain, made allistair king and then let him die killing the archdemon while anora is locked up leave a lot of potential plotholes to be filled. If handled well it is of course quite a respectable feat but it is just such a complex compilation of flags that it would not surprise me if something goes weird xD

What also worries me a bit was how awakening made, despite not that many flags to handle, the mistake to not be able to import your choices from the ultimate sacrifice ending so that those that died killing the archdemon and made anora queen somehow got shafted. Lets just hope that they do allow a continuation of "your" story of thedas even if you died.

And lastly concerning changing/not changing her character: Well she does develop during the game, for better or worse, so I think how she in the end winds up returning to dragon age should be influenced by your choices to a large degree. Still the "lived happily ever after" ending is not something that should be implemented, or at least be prohibitatively hard to achieve. It is somewhat OOC for her to suddenly change into a loving mother, she is awesome but she does have "slight" mother issues xD

Very good summary that adressed all the major points.

Agreed. This is a very good summary of a very interesting discussion. Let me just add, that the lack of plot flags in Awakening does not need to be problem, as long as a future game/expansion can reconnect to the original plot flags in Orgins. They will be unchanged by Awakening anyway.

[Master Shiori]

Xandurpein wrote...

I think that male players need to realize that having made DR canon can be a completely different, and much more painful blow for a female gamer playing a female character they identfy strongly with. Seeing your favorite companion, and maybe love interest, being abused by a canon, can be much worse than having your own character's choices being abused by a canon.

For every player who played a female character they strongly identified with and who loved Alistair (and face it, the boards indicates that this is NOT a small group of players) the dilemma in the Dark ritual is a poison goblet full of pain. To make a canon walk all over that situation is really disrespectful in my humble opinion.

That dilemma isn't really as bad as you think.

While it's true that Alistair fangirls aren't happy with the idea of him sleeping with Morrigan, it's also true that having Alistair do the dark ritual is the only way he and the female Warden can have a happy ending.
The alternative is to have 1 of them die.

Dark Ritual is a bitter experience for both Morrigan and Alistair fans, yet neither group can hope for a "happy ending" without it.

 

[Nu-Nu]

I'm just thinking but could the god child be the new Andrastae?



Andrastae was apparantly a powerful mage and she could talk to the old gods. Kinda sounds like what the god child could become.



And I've know people have moan about not wanting a storyline to do with the child and I understand that but this is the possibility of this kid is just huge and what I'm most interested. And I'm female so this isn't about me wanting "fan service" and I'm not a Morrigan hater so I would like to see her back with the child, to see if she has changed. And I like to see Alistair reaction, and I like to see how they do the main male warden point of view, even if I just read about it.

[Miri1984]

I'm thinking that maybe they've got DA2 less far into the future and DA3 is when we're going to see the DR pop up as canon and Morrigan and her demon baby come back. That way all the choices we make in DAO can be carried over to DA2 without dismissing that plot line completely.



I said in another thread that I wouldn't be surprised if DA3 or some other DA universe game had the PC as Morrigan's child a la Baldur's Gate. That way you can "discover" your past and your powers and be teh awesome hero without being a grey warden. Woot.

[Nu-Nu]

Miri1984 wrote...

I'm thinking that maybe they've got DA2 less far into the future and DA3 is when we're going to see the DR pop up as canon and Morrigan and her demon baby come back. That way all the choices we make in DAO can be carried over to DA2 without dismissing that plot line completely.

I said in another thread that I wouldn't be surprised if DA3 or some other DA universe game had the PC as Morrigan's child a la Baldur's Gate. That way you can "discover" your past and your powers and be teh awesome hero without being a grey warden. Woot.

That sounds good, and as a warden you can change the origin for the god-child in DA3.

[Xandurpein]

Master Shiori wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I think that male players need to realize that having made DR canon can be a completely different, and much more painful blow for a female gamer playing a female character they identfy strongly with. Seeing your favorite companion, and maybe love interest, being abused by a canon, can be much worse than having your own character's choices being abused by a canon.

For every player who played a female character they strongly identified with and who loved Alistair (and face it, the boards indicates that this is NOT a small group of players) the dilemma in the Dark ritual is a poison goblet full of pain. To make a canon walk all over that situation is really disrespectful in my humble opinion.

That dilemma isn't really as bad as you think.

While it's true that Alistair fangirls aren't happy with the idea of him sleeping with Morrigan, it's also true that having Alistair do the dark ritual is the only way he and the female Warden can have a happy ending.
The alternative is to have 1 of them die.

Dark Ritual is a bitter experience for both Morrigan and Alistair fans, yet neither group can hope for a "happy ending" without it.

My point was about those who chose to give NOT go thorugh the Dark Ritual. I think that for a woman to be told that it is canon that somehow the Swamp witch bedded Alistair anyway, would be a worse let down, than it would be for a man to be told that they (or Alistair) somehow slept with Morrigan.

If a male character truly loved Morrigan, they probably did the Dark ritual anyway, but there is no certainty that a female character automatically does the Dark Ritual if they love Alistair. You can't even decide who dies at the end, unless you circumvent the game, by not even bringing Alistair to fort Drakon, if Alistair loves your PC. He will kill himself to save the woman he loves everytime.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 10 mai 2010 - 10:04 .

[bl00dsh0t]

Tirigon wrote...

What about that: Morrigan gets killed on
her travel before the child is born, both are dead, problem
solved?

Hehe i'm pretty confident that won't happen unless claudia black decides not to do morrigans voice again and they figure they can't replace her awesomenes

Nu-Nu wrote...

I'm just thinking but could the god child be the new Andrastae?

Andrastae was apparantly a powerful mage and she could talk to the old gods. Kinda sounds like what the god child could become.

And I've know people have moan about not wanting a storyline to do with the child and I understand that but this is the possibility of this kid is just huge and what I'm most interested. And I'm female so this isn't about me wanting "fan service" and I'm not a Morrigan hater so I would like to see her back with the child, to see if she has changed. And I like to see Alistair reaction, and I like to see how they do the main male warden point of view, even if I just read about it.

That is indeed an interesting idea, there were also slight hints at what andraste may have been in form of one of the gifts for wynne that suggests that she was merely a very powerfull mage. It's title was "The search for the true prophet" and the description "This tattered tome explores the
possibility that Andraste was a powerful mage, not the Maker's Chosen.
It seems this book was saved from a fire at some point."

So by all means it is possible that she was influenced by an old god in the fade who called him/herself the maker. But IIRC the whole andraste business happened before the first blight so she most likely was not a person with the soul of an old god. Whoops checked and andraste lived between the first 2 blights. So she either was dumat (the first archdemon) resurrected 200 years after the first blight...well sounds unlikely... or she somehow communicated with one of the dormant old gods. Seems more likely that she was like wynne and had a spirit guarding her who believed that it was the maker. Still much to wonder about here, even if we ever get to know the truth at all

An yeah allistair meeting his son/daughter with the woman he despises... that would make for some epic jerry springer material!

Nu-Nu wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

I'm
thinking that maybe they've got DA2 less far into the future and DA3 is
when we're going to see the DR pop up as canon and Morrigan and her
demon baby come back. That way all the choices we make in DAO can be
carried over to DA2 without dismissing that plot line completely.

I
said in another thread that I wouldn't be surprised if DA3 or some
other DA universe game had the PC as Morrigan's child a la Baldur's
Gate. That way you can "discover" your past and your powers and be teh
awesome hero without being a grey warden. Woot.

That
sounds good, and as a warden you can change the origin for the god-child
in DA3.

Mm interesting concept, giving us DA2 to wrap things up with the warden to then having a potential origin as a godchild in DA3 does indeed sound like a smart wayto handle it. Eventually the continuity has to be cut, its not like da4 can still refer to savegames from a game over a decade ago ;D Also by giving the option of that origin those that choose not to use it can gladly claim "didn't happen!" Also would be a great way to explore more of thedas without having the darkspawn as the constant antagonists. Neat idea, me likes ^^

[Ken555]

I heard that DA2 is set in the future, so maybe you can play as the kid, when he is older of course.

[askanec]

Why do people always say they want to respect other people's game choices, but they'll want Bioware to cramp Morrigan's baby down our throat anyway? Why not just cut the hypocritical pleasantries and just admit you want Bioware to force everyone to play your version of the game?

Modifié par askanec, 10 mai 2010 - 10:58 .

[Nu-Nu]

askanec wrote...

Why do people always say they want to respect other people's game choices, but they'll want Bioware to cramp Morrigan's baby down our throat anyway? Why not just cut the hypocritical pleasantries and just admit you want Bioware to force everyone to play your version of the game?

This thread is about us talking about the child, not about what happens when there is no child.  You're free to make up plots in another thread where you don't do the ritual.  This is suppose to be a fun thread please take your rudeness else where.

[Miri1984]

Ken555 wrote...

I heard that DA2 is set in the future, so maybe you can play as the kid, when he is older of course.

There was an article about that, but apparently it was an April Fools thing. That's what I heard in any case!

[Master Shiori]

Xandurpein wrote...

My point was about those who chose to give NOT go thorugh the Dark Ritual. I think that for a woman to be told that it is canon that somehow the Swamp witch bedded Alistair anyway, would be a worse let down, than it would be for a man to be told that they (or Alistair) somehow slept with Morrigan.

If a male character truly loved Morrigan, they probably did the Dark ritual anyway, but there is no certainty that a female character automatically does the Dark Ritual if they love Alistair. You can't even decide who dies at the end, unless you circumvent the game, by not even bringing Alistair to fort Drakon, if Alistair loves your PC. He will kill himself to save the woman he loves everytime.

From reading the posts in the Alistair topic my impression is that most of his fans on these boards choose to have a happy ending for their Wardens and thus did the ritual, even if they didn't like it.

Granted those of us who post here are only a small part of the overall DA fanbase so I'll admit it's possible that the majority of Alistair's fans may not want to do the ritual and would rather sacrifice themselves. Without any evidence to support this I can't say if that's really the case.

On the subject of your previous post about Morrigan:

I don't think any of us can claim to know all there is about Morrigan's character, especially when you consider how little information we're given about her and Flemeth in DA:O. We can't even discern what is fact and what is fiction.

As of right know, the only person who can claim to know the truth of Morrigan is David Gaider, being the lead writer for DA and Morrigan's creator.

From what I can gather of Morrigan's actions and thoughts in Origins, she actually cares about the Warden as either a friend or lover and those feelings are sincere. The fact that she sees the ritual as a means to save his/her life proves that "leading men to their doom" isn't her plan when it comes to your character. The exact opposite is true, since she actually gives you a way to avoid your doom.

[Tirigon]

Ken555 wrote...

I heard that DA2 is set in the future, so maybe you can play as the kid, when he is older of course.

I would quite like that.

Not as much as both dying, but since that won´t happen (probably) this is the second best alternative.