120 réponses à ce sujet

[Nu-Nu]

Ken555 wrote...

I heard that DA2 is set in the future, so maybe you can play as the kid, when he is older of course.

I'm still not fulfilled with the story of my warden, so I still want DA2 to be based on her, and the god-child could come later in the series.

[Xandurpein]

Master Shiori wrote...

From what I can gather of Morrigan's actions and thoughts in Origins, she actually cares about the Warden as either a friend or lover and those feelings are sincere. The fact that she sees the ritual as a means to save his/her life proves that "leading men to their doom" isn't her plan when it comes to your character. The exact opposite is true, since she actually gives you a way to avoid your doom.

I am quite convinced that she does care about the Warden too. By saying "leading men to their doom" I only meant that she continues to break hearts wide open. I did not mean to suggest that this is something she does maliciously.

I think that Morrigan will be a much, much stronger character if she continues to be ultimately unobtainable. If the happy ending is like a grail, tantalizing, but unreachable. An eternal mystery. That is only my opinion though.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 10 mai 2010 - 12:21 .

[Terra_Ex]

Xandurpein wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

From what I can gather of Morrigan's actions and thoughts in Origins, she actually cares about the Warden as either a friend or lover and those feelings are sincere. The fact that she sees the ritual as a means to save his/her life proves that "leading men to their doom" isn't her plan when it comes to your character. The exact opposite is true, since she actually gives you a way to avoid your doom.

I am quite convinced that she does care about the Warden too. What I meant by "leading men to their doom" was simply the fact that I think that Morrigan will be a much, much stronger character if she continues to be ultimately unobtainable. If the happy ending is like a grail, tantalizing, but unreachable. That is only my opinion though. I did not mean to suggest anything else by that statement.

It's a nice idea but it is essentially Viconia redux, would be nice if the "bad girl" was actually attainable through some means without being automatically killed off as your end game reward.

[Xandurpein]

Terra_Ex wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

From what I can gather of Morrigan's actions and thoughts in Origins, she actually cares about the Warden as either a friend or lover and those feelings are sincere. The fact that she sees the ritual as a means to save his/her life proves that "leading men to their doom" isn't her plan when it comes to your character. The exact opposite is true, since she actually gives you a way to avoid your doom.

I am quite convinced that she does care about the Warden too. What I meant by "leading men to their doom" was simply the fact that I think that Morrigan will be a much, much stronger character if she continues to be ultimately unobtainable. If the happy ending is like a grail, tantalizing, but unreachable. That is only my opinion though. I did not mean to suggest anything else by that statement.

It's a nice idea but it is essentially Viconia redux, would be nice if the "bad girl" was actually attainable through some means without being automatically killed off as your end game reward.

I did not consider Viconia unreachable at all, so I guess it's a matter of definition. Viconia lived happily for years with my character and they raised a son together. The fact that several years later was killed, did not in any way create the feeling in me that she was an unreachable grail, only that there was a sad epilogue to a happy romance. For me Viconia was reachable, but Morrigan slipped through my fingers.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 10 mai 2010 - 12:39 .

[Nu-Nu]

bl00dsh0t wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

What about that: Morrigan gets killed on
her travel before the child is born, both are dead, problem
solved?

Hehe i'm pretty confident that won't happen unless claudia black decides not to do morrigans voice again and they figure they can't replace her awesomenes

Nu-Nu wrote...

I'm just thinking but could the god child be the new Andrastae?

Andrastae was apparantly a powerful mage and she could talk to the old gods. Kinda sounds like what the god child could become.

And I've know people have moan about not wanting a storyline to do with the child and I understand that but this is the possibility of this kid is just huge and what I'm most interested. And I'm female so this isn't about me wanting "fan service" and I'm not a Morrigan hater so I would like to see her back with the child, to see if she has changed. And I like to see Alistair reaction, and I like to see how they do the main male warden point of view, even if I just read about it.

That is indeed an interesting idea, there were also slight hints at what andraste may have been in form of one of the gifts for wynne that suggests that she was merely a very powerfull mage. It's title was "The search for the true prophet" and the description "This tattered tome explores the
possibility that Andraste was a powerful mage, not the Maker's Chosen.
It seems this book was saved from a fire at some point."

So by all means it is possible that she was influenced by an old god in the fade who called him/herself the maker. But IIRC the whole andraste business happened before the first blight so she most likely was not a person with the soul of an old god. Whoops checked and andraste lived between the first 2 blights. So she either was dumat (the first archdemon) resurrected 200 years after the first blight...well sounds unlikely... or she somehow communicated with one of the dormant old gods. Seems more likely that she was like wynne and had a spirit guarding her who believed that it was the maker. Still much to wonder about here, even if we ever get to know the truth at all

An yeah allistair meeting his son/daughter with the woman he despises... that would make for some epic jerry springer material!

My thinking is since the child has an old god soul, it would be able to communicate like Andraste could.  I have no idea if Andraste has the soul of a god but from what I read and the fact her ashes can heal must mean there's something really special about her.  And she was the Bride of the maker, I'm not entirely sure what that means but maybe she was the maker's favourite old god?  And she helped stopped the old gods from attacking, chantry said she pleaded but it could be she used her powers and that has to be extremely powerful.

A lot of possibilites of what Andrastae could be that it could fit with the god child.

Also, it be quite amusing if you played as the warden who is the father of the child.  Would Morrigan play happy family with you?  And what would the female warden options be?  Whether she is the love interest or not of the father of the baby...

[Terra_Ex]

Xandurpein wrote...

Terra_Ex wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Master Shiori wrote...

From what I can gather of Morrigan's actions and thoughts in Origins, she actually cares about the Warden as either a friend or lover and those feelings are sincere. The fact that she sees the ritual as a means to save his/her life proves that "leading men to their doom" isn't her plan when it comes to your character. The exact opposite is true, since she actually gives you a way to avoid your doom.

I am quite convinced that she does care about the Warden too. What I meant by "leading men to their doom" was simply the fact that I think that Morrigan will be a much, much stronger character if she continues to be ultimately unobtainable. If the happy ending is like a grail, tantalizing, but unreachable. That is only my opinion though. I did not mean to suggest anything else by that statement.

It's a nice idea but it is essentially Viconia redux, would be nice if the "bad girl" was actually attainable through some means without being automatically killed off as your end game reward.

I did not consider Viconia unreachable at all, so I guess it's a matter of definition. Viconia lived happily for years with my character and they raised a son together. The fact that several years later was killed, did not in any way create the feeling in me that she was an unreachable grial, only that there was a sad epilogue to a happy romance. For me Viconia was reachable, but Morrigan slipped through my fingers.

I'm more getting at the fact that Viconia's fate is sealed irrespective of your actions. When you reunite with her in BG2 she's about to be executed - her fate at the end of TOB is not dissimilar, thus the final outcome was the same, which to me, somewhat undermines my actions within the game world. Cetainly you have the time spent with her during the game and the additional years referenced in the epilogue, but since all paths you can take ultimately lead to the same goal, the player's influence on the Viconia thread is something of an illusion.

When you get a situation like this where the ultimate end is always dark for the sake of being dark, the player becomes disinclined to follow through since they know that ultimately, the end result will be the same. If Morrigan's fate is to die tragically in DA2 regardless of my actions to the contrary, I may as well just leave her in the camp or send her away at the first opportunity.

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 10 mai 2010 - 12:45 .

[bl00dsh0t]

How nostalgic, the viconia comparison is back xD Aka the way not a single morri fan wants this to end : Morrigan was eventually hunted down by cullen, flemeth eventually posessed her....etc. etc. Is just plain annoying



The one weakness this ending has in bg2 as terra suggests is that no matter what you do your lover bites the dust regardless of your actions, which is somewhat similar as what happens with morrigan since she leaves regardless of your actions. Since morrigans story has not yet ended the ending itself can still be influenced but being told your lover got assasinated after you complete the game is just such a moodkiller its redicolous xD



Alltough i understand that some things need to be left for the writers to decide a dark ending for the sake of a dark ending is just plain disempowering to the player and can make an awesome game loose an awfull lot of fanlove even if the path to the ending was brilliant. I hope they don't go the picketfence route but god damn the graveyard i fear a bit more

[Brockololly]

bl00dsh0t wrote...

How nostalgic, the viconia comparison is back xD Aka the way not a single morri fan wants this to end : Morrigan was eventually hunted down by cullen, flemeth eventually posessed her....etc. etc. Is just plain annoying

The one weakness this ending has in bg2 as terra suggests is that no matter what you do your lover bites the dust regardless of your actions, which is somewhat similar as what happens with morrigan since she leaves regardless of your actions. Since morrigans story has not yet ended the ending itself can still be influenced but being told your lover got assasinated after you complete the game is just such a moodkiller its redicolous xD

Alltough i understand that some things need to be left for the writers to decide a dark ending for the sake of a dark ending is just plain disempowering to the player and can make an awesome game loose an awfull lot of fanlove even if the path to the ending was brilliant. I hope they don't go the picketfence route but god damn the graveyard i fear a bit more

Yeah, if Bioware wants to do a "dark" ending or something, there are ways to do it without having to rip away all agency from the player and turn the tables on them in the epilogue, like with Viconia. Its just that for an RPG where your choices are supposed to matter, I'd really like to see it so that the Warden has to be the one dealing with the consequences for their actions. And then let how the Warden deals with everything in the game be the determining factor of whether you get the "tragic" ending or not. I'm not advocating a sunshine and rainbows ending with Morrigan and the Old God Baby necessarily, but to just have it be pre-ordained by Gaider and Bioware to end badly is a bit of the writers simply wielding their Plot Hammer a bit too heavily.

[Sarah1281]

I think that male players need to realize that having made DR canon can be a completely different, and much more painful blow for a female gamer playing a female character they identfy strongly with. Seeing your favorite companion, and maybe love interest, being abused by a canon, can be much worse than having your own character's choices being abused by a canon.
For every player who played a female character they strongly identified with and who loved Alistair (and face it, the boards indicates that this is NOT a small group of players) the dilemma in the Dark ritual is a poison goblet full of pain. To make a canon walk all over that situation is really disrespectful in my humble opinion.

I can understand not wanting to do the DR because you don't trust Morrigan or feel that the baby would be an comparable if not worse threat than the Archdemon but to have either you or Alistair die because you just love each other so much that you'd rather one of you die within half a week then have him sleep with someone else one time to save both of your lives? Yeah, I'm not really very sympathetic to their plight. Sure it's hard, but if it's not about the risk to the world then I think it just comes off as selfish to not do it, especially if you claim to love Alistair so much. Is it really love if you'd rather see him dead than with another woman? He's not even leaving you! It's literally the one way not to die!

[Nu-Nu]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think that male players need to realize that having made DR canon can be a completely different, and much more painful blow for a female gamer playing a female character they identfy strongly with. Seeing your favorite companion, and maybe love interest, being abused by a canon, can be much worse than having your own character's choices being abused by a canon.
For every player who played a female character they strongly identified with and who loved Alistair (and face it, the boards indicates that this is NOT a small group of players) the dilemma in the Dark ritual is a poison goblet full of pain. To make a canon walk all over that situation is really disrespectful in my humble opinion.

I can understand not wanting to do the DR because you don't trust Morrigan or feel that the baby would be an comparable if not worse threat than the Archdemon but to have either you or Alistair die because you just love each other so much that you'd rather one of you die within half a week then have him sleep with someone else one time to save both of your lives? Yeah, I'm not really very sympathetic to their plight. Sure it's hard, but if it's not about the risk to the world then I think it just comes off as selfish to not do it, especially if you claim to love Alistair so much. Is it really love if you'd rather see him dead than with another woman? He's not even leaving you! It's literally the one way not to die!

I agree, and I'm an Alistair fan and even after the dark ritual moment, as painful as it was, I'm still a Morrigan fan and I trust her. 

Jealousy tis an evil thing, that should not be the reason why you choose not to do the ritual.  Fair enough if you think the baby will be dangerous, but not to do it out of envy, that you rather see him dead then with her sounds a bit bunny boilerish.

[Xandurpein]

Terra_Ex wrote...

I'm more getting at the fact that Viconia's fate is sealed irrespective of your actions. When you reunite with her in BG2 she's about to be executed - her fate at the end of TOB is not dissimilar, thus the final outcome was the same, which to me, somewhat undermines my actions within the game world. Cetainly you have the time spent with her during the game and the additional years referenced in the epilogue, but since all paths you can take ultimately lead to the same goal, the player's influence on the Viconia thread is something of an illusion.

When you get a situation like this where the ultimate end is always dark for the sake of being dark, the player becomes disinclined to follow through since they know that ultimately, the end result will be the same. If Morrigan's fate is to die tragically in DA2 regardless of my actions to the contrary, I may as well just leave her in the camp or send her away at the first opportunity.

Again, I beg to differ. Yes, she dies regardless of my actions, but I think that it's a gross over-simplification to say that my actions don't affect her. The one thing we do no is that everyone dies eventually, does the fact that sooner or later every single person dies, mean that their lives cannot be affected? She gets to live many years together with her lover and experience a life she previously couldn't imagine. She has a son she can pass her lore of the drow on to. In any way I can possibly imagine her life is changed.  

[bl00dsh0t]

I don't think any of us imply that our love interests in games are meant to be immortal, it is just very annoying when your insanely powerfull character cannot protect the women he loves from an assasin. Sure in any piece of literature or film it would have been a fitting ending but to kill off a character in a combat related way outside of the players control with the character unable to even hunt down the killer is something that is just very abnormal for a gamer. Sure from the descriptions there are some happy years after the ending of the game, but just leaving it at that would have made loads of players happy without taking her out with a single sentence ;D

[Miri1984]

[quote]Nu-Nu wrote...

I can understand not wanting to do the DR because you don't trust Morrigan or feel that the baby would be an comparable if not worse threat than the Archdemon but to have either you or Alistair die because you just love each other so much that you'd rather one of you die within half a week then have him sleep with someone else one time to save both of your lives? Yeah, I'm not really very sympathetic to their plight. Sure it's hard, but if it's not about the risk to the world then I think it just comes off as selfish to not do it, especially if you claim to love Alistair so much. Is it really love if you'd rather see him dead than with another woman? He's not even leaving you! It's literally the one way not to die![/quote]

I agree, and I'm an Alistair fan and even after the dark ritual moment, as painful as it was, I'm still a Morrigan fan and I trust her. 

Jealousy tis an evil thing, that should not be the reason why you choose not to do the ritual.  Fair enough if you think the baby will be dangerous, but not to do it out of envy, that you rather see him dead then with her sounds a bit bunny boilerish.
[/quote]

Absolutely. It takes on a whole new meaning once you get to the point of killing the archdemon because if he's with you he won't LET you take the final blow yourself, so you are really dooming him if you don't do the DR (as if I'm not going to take him with me up there!).

The first time I played through I refused the DR with the intention of taking the final blow myself, BUT Morrigan tells you pretty much (if you choose the correct dialogue options) that Alistair won't let you do it so it's not metagaming to know that you're killing him by not letting him do the DR.

I refused the ritual because I thought the baby would be dangerous, by the way. But I wasn't friends with her the first playthrough. Second playthrough I trusted her enough to let her do it, so I got my cake and ate it too!

[Vicious]

I'm still not fulfilled with the story of my warden, so I still want DA2 to be based on her, and the god-child could come later in the series.

Your Warden won't be heading up DA2. I can't count the amount of times in an interview a dev has come out and said, "There are many other stories to tell in the DA universe." in regards to the sequel. All they need to add is a bunch of winking and nodding and even then I think people wouldn't believe it.


That said, the ritual was obviously meant to be canon, and you were really supposed to never have a reason to refuse it other than hating Morrigan unnecessarily... However, the game ending got rushed, scenes and dialogue were cut or undone, and now regardless of your relationship with Morrigan you get a cold witch who acts like she doesn't care about anything, which was completely contrary to the way the writers like David Gaider wanted to present her as in the end.


As for Old God baby, well first it's utterly foolish to imagine Bioware won't go with a canon ending. This is Dragon Age, not Mass Effect where you write the f--ing story and it affects the next game. Awakenings had barely anything carry over, just some dialogue snippets - and we all know how poorly-received that was.

Bioware will pick their canon and run with it. Remember KOTOR? Yes, you can be a darksider and use the star forge to wipe out the Republic. Is it canon? HELL NO.
Same thing here. Yes, you can be the noble hero who refuses the one-time never-happen-again-ever chance to let an Old God live, free of the taint, in the body of a human being, putting the soul of an ancient dragon into a mortal, in the conveniently named DRAGON AGE, but is your refusal canon? Probably not.

Anyway, I digress.

The kid has a lot of potential. They could go many ways and it should be very interesting. Hero? Villain? Anarchist? Protagonist? Antagonist? Will Morrigan have twins? (i'd LOL)

But it's safe to say we'll be seeing them someday.

Modifié par Vicious, 11 mai 2010 - 07:32 .

[Miri1984]

Vicious wrote...

I'm still not fulfilled with the story of my warden, so I still want DA2 to be based on her, and the god-child could come later in the series.

Your Warden won't be heading up DA2. I can't count the amount of times in an interview a dev has come out and said, "There are many other stories to tell in the DA universe." in regards to the sequel. All they need to add is a bunch of winking and nodding and even then I think people wouldn't believe it.


That said, the ritual was obviously meant to be canon, and you were really supposed to never have a reason to refuse it other than hating Morrigan unnecessarily... However, the game ending got rushed, scenes and dialogue were cut or undone, and now regardless of your relationship with Morrigan you get a cold witch who acts like she doesn't care about anything, which was completely contrary to the way the writers like David Gaider wanted to present her as in the end.


As for Old God baby, well first it's utterly foolish to imagine Bioware won't go with a canon ending. This is Dragon Age, not Mass Effect where you write the f--ing story and it affects the next game. Awakenings had barely anything carry over, just some dialogue snippets - and we all know how poorly-received that was.

Bioware will pick their canon and run with it. Remember KOTOR? Yes, you can be a darksider and use the star forge to wipe out the Republic. Is it canon? HELL NO.
Same thing here. Yes, you can be the noble hero who refuses the one-time never-happen-again-ever chance to let an Old God live, free of the taint, in the body of a human being, putting the soul of an ancient dragon into a mortal, in the conveniently named DRAGON AGE, but is your refusal canon? Probably not.

Anyway, I digress.

The kid has a lot of potential. They could go many ways and it should be very interesting. Hero? Villain? Anarchist? Protagonist? Antagonist? Will Morrigan have twins? (i'd LOL)

But it's safe to say we'll be seeing them someday.

No reason to refuse the dark ritual? Did you miss the whole fact that it's a "Dark" ritual? I think there are plenty of reasons to refuse it, otherwise I wouldn't have refused it the first time I played through!

I agree, though, that there will probably be a "canon" ending to DAO, but I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware does attempt to make our choices carry over, simply because it hasn't really been done before. 

[Nu-Nu]

Vicious wrote...

I'm still not fulfilled with the story of my warden, so I still want DA2 to be based on her, and the god-child could come later in the series.

Your Warden won't be heading up DA2. I can't count the amount of times in an interview a dev has come out and said, "There are many other stories to tell in the DA universe." in regards to the sequel. All they need to add is a bunch of winking and nodding and even then I think people wouldn't believe it.


That said, the ritual was obviously meant to be canon, and you were really supposed to never have a reason to refuse it other than hating Morrigan unnecessarily... However, the game ending got rushed, scenes and dialogue were cut or undone, and now regardless of your relationship with Morrigan you get a cold witch who acts like she doesn't care about anything, which was completely contrary to the way the writers like David Gaider wanted to present her as in the end.


As for Old God baby, well first it's utterly foolish to imagine Bioware won't go with a canon ending. This is Dragon Age, not Mass Effect where you write the f--ing story and it affects the next game. Awakenings had barely anything carry over, just some dialogue snippets - and we all know how poorly-received that was.

Bioware will pick their canon and run with it. Remember KOTOR? Yes, you can be a darksider and use the star forge to wipe out the Republic. Is it canon? HELL NO.
Same thing here. Yes, you can be the noble hero who refuses the one-time never-happen-again-ever chance to let an Old God live, free of the taint, in the body of a human being, putting the soul of an ancient dragon into a mortal, in the conveniently named DRAGON AGE, but is your refusal canon? Probably not.

Anyway, I digress.

The kid has a lot of potential. They could go many ways and it should be very interesting. Hero? Villain? Anarchist? Protagonist? Antagonist? Will Morrigan have twins? (i'd LOL)

But it's safe to say we'll be seeing them someday.

I'd be sad if that was the case.  I really hope the warden gets at least one more run.  The epilogue for origin said her stories aren't over and they're for another time, so I don't think it'll be the end we see of her.  I really hope not, and not just confined to dlc.  You get the options to say you find morrigan and chase after her at the end of origins so your warden must get an oppurtunity to find her and the kid at some point.

Dragon age could just mean fighting lots of dragons like the archdemon and the drakes and flemmeth in her dragon form, see where I'm going here. 

Doesn't mean we'll play as the godchild, not that it would be bad, but I'm not going to take anything as fact and just continue with the guessing game.  I think bioware is teasing us right now, so we'll keep teasing ourselves and also keep the memory of the game alive.  I wouldn't take anything they say right now as fact or hints to what the sequel will be.

And as for twins, that could...be..interesting...as long as it doesn't replicate the Leia and Luke storyline.

[Nu-Nu]

Miri1984 wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

I can understand not wanting to do the DR because you don't trust Morrigan or feel that the baby would be an comparable if not worse threat than the Archdemon but to have either you or Alistair die because you just love each other so much that you'd rather one of you die within half a week then have him sleep with someone else one time to save both of your lives? Yeah, I'm not really very sympathetic to their plight. Sure it's hard, but if it's not about the risk to the world then I think it just comes off as selfish to not do it, especially if you claim to love Alistair so much. Is it really love if you'd rather see him dead than with another woman? He's not even leaving you! It's literally the one way not to die!

Nu-Nu wrote...

I agree, and I'm an Alistair fan and even after the dark ritual moment, as painful as it was, I'm still a Morrigan fan and I trust her. 

Jealousy tis an evil thing, that should not be the reason why you choose not to do the ritual.  Fair enough if you think the baby will be dangerous, but not to do it out of envy, that you rather see him dead then with her sounds a bit bunny boilerish.

Absolutely. It takes on a whole new meaning once you get to the point of killing the archdemon because if he's with you he won't LET you take the final blow yourself, so you are really dooming him if you don't do the DR (as if I'm not going to take him with me up there!).

The first time I played through I refused the DR with the intention of taking the final blow myself, BUT Morrigan tells you pretty much (if you choose the correct dialogue options) that Alistair won't let you do it so it's not metagaming to know that you're killing him by not letting him do the DR.

I refused the ritual because I thought the baby would be dangerous, by the way. But I wasn't friends with her the first playthrough. Second playthrough I trusted her enough to let her do it, so I got my cake and ate it too!

I was 50/50 on whether the child would be evil when I first saw that bit but I still didn't do it the first time only because I like sad endings and wanted to see that first.  Though I didn't mean for Alistair to die first, I had every intention of knocking him out and taking the blow myself but that option sadly never came up....

And then after that, it that makes the "happy" ending better lol.  Hopefully, my happy ending can get carried over, I would prefer the dark ritual to be canon if we're going to be forced down a certain route.

[old book]

If you do end up playing the child, David Gaider will get a chance to go back to some of the themes from the Baldur's Gate series. Even if you don't, there's a chance to look at the whole God-Child theme again, this time from the outside. Shame the Blighted Old God we slew wasn't the Dragon of Murder.



"The Dragon of Murder Shall Perish..."

[Lintanis]

love the idea of Morrigan having twins lol

[Brockololly]

Lintanis wrote...

love the idea of Morrigan having twins lol

After all, in the Arl Foreshadow codex note it does say something like "Offspring and the Fade: Terrible twos indeed!"