277 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

You are not a military commander. There is no Warden commander in Ferelden at that point. You may well play it that your PC is "in charge," but that's not specified in game. The fact that you take the lead is more or less an arrangement that Alistair agrees to willingly, but he simply has his limits.

You are kind of in charge at the Landsmeet by default since Alistair, as one of the candidates for the throne, can't very well be the one to decide semi-objectively who goes on the throne. And you may not have an official warden-commander but if you two are at odds over every decision nothing will get done so one of you has to be in charge. Logically, it should be the more senior warden, Alistair, but he cedes command to you and follows everything you say even if you decide to go on a murdering rampage across Ferelden as you seek allies. Even if you're not officially in a position of power, he still deserts the Wardens if Loghain is saved. I can understand where he's coming from and think it's in-character, but that's highly irresponsible right before you head to Redcliffe to try and face the Blight there. Everyone thinks the final battle will be there until you actually arrive and Alistair leaves you high and dry when he knows that the only reason Loghain is being allowed to join the Order is because you're desperately in need of more Wardens and I don't see how you can find that an acceptable thing to do.

[phaonica]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think this is where a lot of the issues come in.  Alistair will challenge you on stuff, especially if you don't like each other.  But that aspect never comes out if most of your decisions are in line with his thinking.  That's my belief as to why so many people seem blind-sided or confused when he freaks out.

That is true. No one expects him to put his foot down because he never has before. Perhaps they see it as a betrayal of trust as much as he does. I think though that being blind-sided by his freakout just means one misjudged how emotional he can get, not that his character is badly written.

[phaonica]

Tirigon wrote...

Then what about THIS reason: My PC is strong enough to kill everyone who oposes his leadership?

Well that certainly makes you a tyrant, but it arguably doesn't make you a good leader...

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Elves, mages, and dwarves could not possible have a claim to the human throne. Maybe you feel that they should but that's not how the law works. Just like how you feel Alistair being a Theirin, unacknowledged that he is, automatically gives him a claim even though if that were the case Anora couldn't stand against him. Ferelden law does not work like that and that is all that matters when choosing the new monarch, not what's 'fair.' Not to mention that Fereldenis hardly 'saved' at the Landsmeet.

And Loghain saved Ferelden, too, but that didn't convince the bannorn he had a claim to the throne now did it?

Then what about THIS reason: My PC is strong enough to kill everyone who oposes his leadership?

You and what army? The mages, Dalish, and dwarves (or templars, werewolves, and golems) only signed on to stop the Bight not faciliate your power-hungriness. And Loghain thought that way, too. Didn't seem to be working out for him very well. You can't just kill everyone until you get your way as you will never be accpted as a mage/elf/dwarf Queen. Ever.

[Xandurpein]

phaonica wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Then what about THIS reason: My PC is strong enough to kill everyone who oposes his leadership?

Well that certainly makes you a tyrant, but it arguably doesn't make you a good leader...

Most even semi-civilized countries abandoned physical prowess as way of chosing leaders around the bronze age or so...

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 You can't just kill everyone until you get your way as you will never be accpted as a mage/elf/dwarf Queen. Ever.

Then they should make the game harder, because atm I CAN.

[Tirigon]

Xandurpein wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Tirigon
wrote...

Then what about THIS reason: My PC is strong enough to
kill everyone who oposes his leadership?

Well
that certainly makes you a tyrant, but it arguably doesn't make you a
good leader...

Most even semi-civilized countries
abandoned physical prowess as way of chosing leaders around the bronze
age or so...

Ferelden DOES choose its leaders that way. That´s why you have to duel Loghain in the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Tirigon, 09 mai 2010 - 06:39 .

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 You can't just kill everyone until you get your way as you will never be accpted as a mage/elf/dwarf Queen. Ever.

Then they should make the game harder, because atm I CAN.

Gamewise, you could concievably kill everyone in Ferelden. As far as the actual plot goes, no you couldn't. Your character might be on level thirty or whatever but they are still just one person all too easily mobbed and killed.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Even if you're not officially in a position of power, he still deserts the Wardens if Loghain is saved. I can understand where he's coming from and think it's in-character, but that's highly irresponsible right before you head to Redcliffe to try and face the Blight there. Everyone thinks the final battle will be there until you actually arrive and Alistair leaves you high and dry when he knows that the only reason Loghain is being allowed to join the Order is because you're desperately in need of more Wardens and I don't see how you can find that an acceptable thing to do.

I'm not going to argue that point.  What I was addressing was the idea that somehow Alistair had to bow to you as if you were his military superior.

I agree that regardless of what you do in the Landsmeet, he should have stayed and fought against the Blight, but since he can't fight beside Loghain and you're determined to do so, there is not a lot of choice for him.  Sucking it up is simply not an option.  He can't and won't be a party to what you're doing.

[LadyDamodred]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 You can't just kill everyone until you get your way as you will never be accpted as a mage/elf/dwarf Queen. Ever.

Then they should make the game harder, because atm I CAN.

It's not a matter of diificulty or ability.  Gaining the throne by slaughtering people does not endear you to the public and will only set people firmly against you.  There is a differnce between killing bad dudes and killing people who have committed no crime except doing their duty.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Then what about THIS reason: My PC is strong enough to kill everyone who oposes his leadership?

Well that certainly makes you a tyrant, but it arguably doesn't make you a good leader...

The PC is a good leader by nature. But even a good leader has to kill those who oppose him - it´s not good, but if it´s the only way......

[Xandurpein]

Tirigon wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Tirigon
wrote...

Then what about THIS reason: My PC is strong enough to
kill everyone who oposes his leadership?

Well
that certainly makes you a tyrant, but it arguably doesn't make you a
good leader...

Most even semi-civilized countries
abandoned physical prowess as way of chosing leaders around the bronze
age or so...

Ferelden DOES choose its leaders that way. That´s why you have to duel Loghain in the Landsmeet.

No they dont. That's why you don't become leader if you win.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 mai 2010 - 06:41 .

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Your character might be on level thirty or whatever but they are still just one person all too easily mobbed and killed.

Not really. Not when playing a blood mage at least.

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Tirigon
wrote...

Then what about THIS reason: My PC is strong enough to
kill everyone who oposes his leadership?

Well
that certainly makes you a tyrant, but it arguably doesn't make you a
good leader...

Most even semi-civilized countries
abandoned physical prowess as way of chosing leaders around the bronze
age or so...

Ferelden DOES choose its leaders that way. That´s why you have to duel Loghain in the Landsmeet.

No, Loghain (or you) refuse to accept the decision and thus a duel is called for to prevent it from turning into a massacre. If Loghain wins then he will continue being regent for his noble daughter and if you win you can put Alistair (w/ you or without) on the throne, Anora (w/ you or without) up there, or marry them. You're nto an option. There is only Alistair and Anora, with Loghain wishing to remain as regent for Anora as Queen.

[Tirigon]

LadyDamodred wrote...

There is a differnce between killing bad dudes and killing people who have committed no crime except doing their duty.

I disagree, because it´s the winner who decides who´s good and who´s bad.

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Then what about THIS reason: My PC is strong enough to kill everyone who oposes his leadership?

Well that certainly makes you a tyrant, but it arguably doesn't make you a good leader...

The PC is a good leader by nature. But even a good leader has to kill those who oppose him - it´s not good, but if it´s the only way......

Not really. All you  have to do is kill a buch of people, which hardly requires good leadership much less good statesmanship. And how is it the only way? There are other candidates and you can have influence by becoming Chancellor. Staging an outright coup because you want to be Queen isn't necessary and is downright stupid given the coming Blight.

Not really. Not when playing a blood mage at least.

Can you say 'Exalted March'?

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

No, Loghain (or you) refuse to accept the decision and thus a duel is called for to prevent it from turning into a massacre. If Loghain wins then he will continue being regent for his noble daughter and if you win you can put Alistair (w/ you or without) on the throne, Anora (w/ you or without) up there, or marry them. You're nto an option. There is only Alistair and Anora, with Loghain wishing to remain as regent for Anora as Queen.

Which leads back to "the Landsmeet is poorly written".

[LadyDamodred]

Tirigon wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

There is a differnce between killing bad dudes and killing people who have committed no crime except doing their duty.

I disagree, because it´s the winner who decides who´s good and who´s bad.

...no.

Winning has nothing to do with good or bad.  Nothing.  If Hitler had won WWII, does that make him a good guy?  If the Americans had lost the revoltion, does that make George Washington, Sam Adams, Ben Franklin, etc...bad guys?

[Sarah1281]

It's poorly written because the only options for monarch are those with a considerable political backing (namely Anora or the Eamon-supported Alistair) and you can't just ignore all the laws of the land to be the special Queen Mary Sue?

[LadyDamodred]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

No, Loghain (or you) refuse to accept the decision and thus a duel is called for to prevent it from turning into a massacre. If Loghain wins then he will continue being regent for his noble daughter and if you win you can put Alistair (w/ you or without) on the throne, Anora (w/ you or without) up there, or marry them. You're nto an option. There is only Alistair and Anora, with Loghain wishing to remain as regent for Anora as Queen.

Which leads back to "the Landsmeet is poorly written".

How does that make it poorly written?  Those are the only logical choices.

[Xandurpein]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

No, Loghain (or you) refuse to accept the decision and thus a duel is called for to prevent it from turning into a massacre. If Loghain wins then he will continue being regent for his noble daughter and if you win you can put Alistair (w/ you or without) on the throne, Anora (w/ you or without) up there, or marry them. You're nto an option. There is only Alistair and Anora, with Loghain wishing to remain as regent for Anora as Queen.

Which leads back to "the Landsmeet is poorly written".

I'm more inclined to belive that it is very well written and that the fact that you can kill the whole room single handedly is lazy game design.

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Which leads back to "the Landsmeet is poorly written".

I'm more inclined to belive that it is very well written and that the fact that you can kill the whole room single handedly is lazy game design.

It would have been awfully nice if I could somehow have been allowed to graciously lose the Landsmeet instead of just killing everyone to get my way.
Loghain doesn't give you that option, obviously, but it would have been nice if the developers had come up with some other way.

[Xandurpein]

phaonica wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Which leads back to "the Landsmeet is poorly written".

I'm more inclined to belive that it is very well written and that the fact that you can kill the whole room single handedly is lazy game design.

It would have been awfully nice if I could somehow have been allowed to graciously lose the Landsmeet instead of just killing everyone to get my way.
Loghain doesn't give you that option, obviously, but it would have been nice if the developers had come up with some other way.

What I mean is, it should not be physically possible to kill EVERYONE in the room, both Loghain's and Eamon's men and declare yourself King on a pool of blood, even if the game had permitted you to try.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 mai 2010 - 06:55 .

[Sarah1281]

It probably would have led to a cutscene where you're taken down. For instance, gameplay-wise my DC could totally have taken all those guards that tried to arrest her after winning that Proving in the Origin. As far as realism went, however, she may have been better than them but there were too many and she was swarmed and locked up. Something similar probably would have occured had that option been available.

[phaonica]

Xandurpein wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Which leads back to "the Landsmeet is poorly written".

I'm more inclined to belive that it is very well written and that the fact that you can kill the whole room single handedly is lazy game design.

It would have been awfully nice if I could somehow have been allowed to graciously lose the Landsmeet instead of just killing everyone to get my way.
Loghain doesn't give you that option, obviously, but it would have been nice if the developers had come up with some other way.

What I mean is, it should not be physically possible to kill EVERYONE in the room, both Loghain's and Eamon's men and declare yourself King on a pool of blood, even if the dialogue had permitted it.

Well I agree with that too.