277 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

The bannorn just showed it wouldn't bow to Loghain just because he demanded it and he was a hero. Why would they bow to the people who had already enslaved them once?

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Exactly! That fact he is not consistent kills him for me. The whole game before that point, and I mean the FULL GAME, he will stick with you no matter what. The only decision he ever questions loudly is if you kill Connor/Isolde, and even then you can tell him to rub it and he won't make any fuss about it afterward. Hardened or not.

Then at th Landsmeet he suddenly man's up, and DEMANDS to be king just to EXECUTE Loghain? What the **** is that **** Bioware.

So, basically you kill him because BioWare writers wrote an inconsistent story? That´s hardly his fault.

I do agree however that it sucks hard. I actually hate all the things where your companions leave and you can´t persuade them to stay, or at least kill them if they refuse......

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Declaring his intentions to desert if he doesn't get his way. Justifies execution for me.

Desertion is generally bad, but I need Alistair. If I'd been givin the chance to try to talk him down, I would have taken him back.

Me too, there is little sense in killing him and my Cousland does not see Alsitair as a threat to his rule as King Consort. Had I been given the chance, I would have slapped some sense in him. At least convince him to fight with Riordan and not with me and Loghain.

[Tirigon]

phaonica wrote...

You don't know they'd allow the nobles to continue to rule.

Everyone says Celene is a political genius. If that´s true she would try to get as many nobles on her side as possible.

And  "I'm a slave, but at least I'm alive" is ok for Ferelden, but not for the alienage? What?

It is ok for most of the Alienage, apparently. In the City Elf Origin there´s ONLY TWO!!! people who try to free the captured women, out of how many?
I don´t see much rebel´s spirit in the City elves.....

[Costin_Razvan]

So, basically you kill him because BioWare writers wrote an inconsistent story? That´s hardly his fault.

It just destroys the characters for me. It destroyed Alistair, Miranda and to a lesser degree Wynne ( since destroying the Urn is useless anyway )

I don't kill him in general though. The only time I did it was with my HN, since he was hardened and I do not put it above Eamon to use him as a tool against me.

Expect my Dwarf Noble, who let him run off, he get's married to Anora in every other of my playthroughs. In fact if I daresay I think those two make an excellent couple.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 mai 2010 - 07:54 .

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Me too, there is little sense in killing him and my Cousland does not see Alsitair as a threat to his rule as King Consort. Had I been given the chance, I would have slapped some sense in him. At least convince him to fight with Riordan and not with me and Loghain.

I think this is a very reasonable position, and I would do the same.

The main reason I disagree with sparing Loghain is that this means you HAVE to kill Alistair or let him go away. That sucks a lot, imo, because it makes the whole "We need as many Wardens as possible!!" thing ridiculous. You don´t have  more when you recruit Loghain.....

On my first playthrough I actually planned to recruit Loghain and only had Alistair kil him, because I didn´t want him to leave.

BioWare REALLY should have added an option to have both in your party.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It just destroys the characters for me. It destroyed Alistair, Miranda and to a lesser degree Wynne ( since destroying the Urn is useless anyway )

Miranda?


I don´t think Wynne´s character is destroyed by her stupid actions. It fits quite well to her, even if it sucks. Well I killed her just yesterday, and it felt GOOD:devil::devil:

Damned old b*tch.

[Costin_Razvan]

Well, the whole recruit Loghain part was only added very late in the development, and for gameplay purposes they choose that no matter what you can't get Loghain and Alistair.

In short they were lazy.

P.S. Miranda is a Mass Effect 2 Character.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 mai 2010 - 07:56 .

[Addai]

Tirigon wrote...

BioWare REALLY should have added an option to have both in your party.

Why, when it makes no sense for Alistair to accept the arrangement?  It's just a line he won't cross, and your PC is not a god so as to be able to arrange everything to suit him/her.

I haven't been able to spare Loghain once, but it's just because I happen to agree with Alistair.  I wouldn't share a camp or fight beside him, either.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In short they were lazy.

I think this is the reason for almost everything that isn´t perfect in BioWare games.

P.S. Miranda is a Mass Effect 2 Character.

I know, but I don´t know what she does that´s inconsistent. I never managed to get ther to leave, though I certainly would like to.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

The main reason I disagree with sparing Loghain is that this means you HAVE to kill Alistair or let him go away. That sucks a lot, imo, because it makes the whole "We need as many Wardens as possible!!" thing ridiculous. You don´t have  more when you recruit Loghain.....

When it comes to picking one of them, I would pick Loghain as he has experience in war, which is exactly what we are heading into. In addition to being a source of inspiration and a national symbol. But that's just me.

Out-game, unfortunately, there is little difference, Loghain does not contribute with any strategies (good guys never strategise, it's always the "bad guys" who do). In-game however, my Cousland thinks Loghain is more valuable.

[Tirigon]

Addai67 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

BioWare REALLY should have added an option to have both in your party.

Why, when it makes no sense for Alistair to accept the arrangement?  It's just a line he won't cross, and your PC is not a god so as to be able to arrange everything to suit him/her.

I haven't been able to spare Loghain once, but it's just because I happen to agree with Alistair.  I wouldn't share a camp or fight beside him, either.

Same, but Riordan HAS a point about more Wardens. Loghain can do the killing blow so both you and Alistair survive. I think that is a reason to accept him in your party - even more so for PCs who romanced Alistair.

And in the worst case you could always accuse him for his crimes in Court after the blight is defeated. Would be more in line with the whole "I want justice" thing, too.

[Costin_Razvan]

Inconsistent in the fact she goes as an Ice Queen, and then suddenly, in a very sharp movement she does a 180 degree turn and shows very deep emotions?

Why, when it makes no sense for Alistair to accept the arrangement? It's just a line he won't cross, and your PC is not a god so as to be able to arrange everything to suit him/her.

So he can cross all other lines expect that? That really makes for a great character. For those of us that don't agree with it ( unlike you ), we find that a very bad way to shape a character.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So he can cross all other lines expect that? That really makes for a great character. For those of us that don't agree with it ( unlike you ), we find that a very bad way to shape a character.

Sure.  It's not like he doesn't react at all to actions your PC takes that he doesn't like.  But when you hit the wall, you hit the wall.  Human beings are like that.  If you could manipulate everything in the game, just name your PC Mary Sue and get it over with.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

The main reason I disagree with sparing Loghain is that this means you HAVE to kill Alistair or let him go away. That sucks a lot, imo, because it makes the whole "We need as many Wardens as possible!!" thing ridiculous. You don´t have  more when you recruit Loghain.....

In-game however, my Cousland thinks Loghain is more valuable.

More valuable, yes. But my Characters all feared a knife in the back if they have the guy who tried to kill them about 10 times so far fighting with them. (To be honest, that´s what I´d do if I was Loghain, too...)

Besides of that, my Cousland wanted to marry Al and become Queen.

[Addai]

Tirigon wrote...

Same, but Riordan HAS a point about more Wardens. Loghain can do the killing blow so both you and Alistair survive. I think that is a reason to accept him in your party - even more so for PCs who romanced Alistair.

At that point you don't know that a Grey Warden has to die to defeat the archdemon.

[phaonica]

In short they were lazy.

I think this is the reason for almost everything that isn´t perfect in BioWare games.

I don't think it's laziness, I think it's expense. Voice acting and labor costs craploads of money, and 90% of their players never even see millions of dollars worth of content. At some point it has to balance out to reach a certain profit margin.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Inconsistent in the fact she goes as an Ice Queen, and then suddenly, in a very sharp movement she does a 180 degree turn and shows very deep emotions?

Uh, same goes for Morrigan, Zevran, to a lesser extent even Sten and Shale........
I get the feeling BioWare writers like that kind of thing.

So he can cross all other lines expect that? That really makes for a great character. For those of us that don't agree with it ( unlike you ), we find that a very bad way to shape a character.

Well I think it should depend on Alistair´s approval. That you can´t convince him to stay when you don´t like each other is allright. But that he even leaves you when you´re the love of his life and dumped both Leli and Zevran for him, well......  That´s a little too much imo...

[Costin_Razvan]

It was laziness. Nothing more. It would have only taken half of a four hour voice acting session to add that. And that is not quite as expensive as it sounds.

 Uh, same goes for Morrigan, Zevran, to a lesser extent even Sten and Shale........
I get the feeling BioWare writers like that kind of thing.

With Morrigan it takes having her approval high, which takes time. Then going through a whole lot of things in her dialogue.

With Miranda she just suddenly starts talking about her past when you get her mission. She does a 180 in a blink of a eye.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 mai 2010 - 08:09 .

[Tirigon]

Addai67 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Same, but Riordan HAS a point about more Wardens. Loghain can do the killing blow so both you and Alistair survive. I think that is a reason to accept him in your party - even more so for PCs who romanced Alistair.

At that point you don't know that a Grey Warden has to die to defeat the archdemon.

Next plothole.
I would love to kill this ass Riordan for not telling there.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
More valuable, yes. But my Characters all feared a knife in the back if they have the guy who tried to kill them about 10 times so far fighting with them. (To be honest, that´s what I´d do if I was Loghain, too...)

My character believes he has understood Loghain and knows that Loghain will not backstab him, not now.

Loghain is not like you. Once he understands that it's another person who can save Ferelden, he will follow that person to whatever end.

Tirigon wrote...
Besides of that, my Cousland wanted to marry Al and become Queen.

That's the main reason for me.
My Aeducan wanted to be Alistair's chancellor (and Alistair is unhardened, mmeaning my Dwarf would rule in reality). To that end, Loghain had to die.
Perfectly legitimate reason. And I consider my Aeducan playthrough to be my "second canon" one.

[Tirigon]

Addai67 wrote...

 just name your PC Mary Sue and get it over with.

If this name wouldn´t sound so bad I would do right that.:P:P

[Addai]

Tirigon wrote...

Well I think it should depend on Alistair´s approval. That you can´t convince him to stay when you don´t like each other is allright. But that he even leaves you when you´re the love of his life and dumped both Leli and Zevran for him, well......  That´s a little too much imo...

He sees it as a betrayal.  So it's even worse, from his perspective, when you do it as his friend or lover than if he already hates you.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Besides of that, my Cousland wanted to marry Al and become Queen.

That's the main reason for me.
My Aeducan wanted to be Alistair's chancellor (and Alistair is unhardened, mmeaning my Dwarf would rule in reality). To that end, Loghain had to die.
Perfectly legitimate reason. And I consider my Aeducan playthrough to be my "second canon" one.

How can you reach that end?
When I wanted to marry Alistair with my elf mage Alistair said he couldn´t and killed himself by defeating the Archdemon. Ali was unhardened, too.

[Costin_Razvan]

He took the Dark Ritual, then asked to continue serving the crown.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 mai 2010 - 08:15 .