277 réponses à ce sujet

[Brako Shepard]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Even Bhelen had the courtesy to execute Harrowmont outside the Assembly. If Loghain deserves to die (and I do not believe that), then he is at least entitled to a proper death.

Well with having dealings with howe(this section would depend if your warrior class mostly I suppose), aswell as leaving the field during battle(desertion), and also being found to have a hand in the attempted death of the arl of Redcliffe. These are good enough reasons for him to die.

I am fine with killing Loghain, I just think it needed to be done better for the sake of Anora.

Modifié par Brako Shepard, 09 mai 2010 - 06:09 .

[Tirigon]

Brako Shepard wrote...

I am fine with killing Loghain, I just think it needed to be done better for the sake of Anora.

True. Anora should die besides him.
Imo she is even worse than Loghain. Both are treacherous bastards, but Loghain is at least a treacherous bastard who loves his country, used to be a hero and ended an occupation that lasted about 100 years.

Anora cares for nothing but becoming queen, though she doesn´t even have a legitimate claim.

[Xandurpein]

Tirigon wrote...

Brako Shepard wrote...

I am fine with killing Loghain, I just think it needed to be done better for the sake of Anora.

True. Anora should die besides him.
Imo she is even worse than Loghain. Both are treacherous bastards, but Loghain is at least a treacherous bastard who loves his country, used to be a hero and ended an occupation that lasted about 100 years.

Anora cares for nothing but becoming queen, though she doesn´t even have a legitimate claim.

No one has a legitimate claim, that's why it's all about politics at the Landsmeet. And I think Anora loves Fereldan as much as Loghain. Both Anora and Loghain make the somewhat egocentric assumption that they are the only ones who can rule Fereldan properly, but at least Anora really knows how to rule, which Loghain don't.

[Brako Shepard]

Very true, and its alot similar to the choice between the commander and the politician in Mass Effect. Whilst a soldier may be good at defending the land, that doesn't mean to say he knows how to run it.



Whilst I can justify killing Loghain, I would also like to give him the chance to redeem himself. BioWare are frikkin excellent at really putting you on the spot with your choices, but I think this one should have been done differently.

[Xandurpein]

Brako Shepard wrote...

Very true, and its alot similar to the choice between the commander and the politician in Mass Effect. Whilst a soldier may be good at defending the land, that doesn't mean to say he knows how to run it.

Whilst I can justify killing Loghain, I would also like to give him the chance to redeem himself. BioWare are frikkin excellent at really putting you on the spot with your choices, but I think this one should have been done differently.

I agree. I think the fact that you are somewhat unrealistically forced into a corner when it comes to Loghain at the Landsmeet (you can't just have him thrown in jail or something) is because killing him (or make him a Warden) on the spot is the only way to have a Alistair marrying Anora end possible. If Loghain was alive, but awaiting sentence, then Alistair and Anora's marriage would split over Loghain's fate, almost before their reign began, if they are married.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 mai 2010 - 09:40 .

[Phaelducan]

I am embarrassed as a gamer that I never even considered racing through to get Loghain and then doing all the sidequests with him. /facepalm

I guess I'll be doing another playthrough soon.



As far as Loghain/Alistair as characters, my own two cents is that they were both foolish and grossly inferior to both Sten and Ohgren as far as quality of writing went.



The fact that Alistair actually leaves you right before you go to face the Archdemon is absurd. The addition of Loghain to the Wardens in the context of the battle to come? Absolutely ridiculous for Alistair to leave. Riordan should have beat some sense into him.

[Xandurpein]

Phaelducan wrote...

As far as Loghain/Alistair as characters, my own two cents is that they were both foolish and grossly inferior to both Sten and Ohgren as far as quality of writing went.

The fact that Alistair actually leaves you right before you go to face the Archdemon is absurd. The addition of Loghain to the Wardens in the context of the battle to come? Absolutely ridiculous for Alistair to leave. Riordan should have beat some sense into him.

First of all I think it's ridiculous to judge the quality of writing for a character, based just on the actions at the Landsmeet. While you are entitled to your opinion I think that you'll have to endure being a very small minority if you think Sten was better written than Alistair. I don't always approve of Alistair's actions, and I often pardon Loghain, but I still consider Alistair's character to be one of the milestones in RPG history, and nothing less.

It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that characters who don't reason like you do, or don't adhere to the same morality like you do, is poorly written and illogical.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 mai 2010 - 09:54 .

[Costin_Razvan]

The whole Landsmeet thing is poorly written.

[Phaelducan]

Alistair as a milestone in RPG history? Definitely disagree there.
My rationale for whether or not characters are believable is pretty simple. Do they act in a consistent manner throughout the narrative, based on their backgrounds and their in-game experiences or not?

Sten- Yes. We are told what the Qunari are, how they live, and their ways. Sten upholds that aspect of the game's narrative at every juncture, even though he expresses sorrow at times for things he has done/will do in the future.

Oghren- Yes. He's a tragic drunkard, who was one of the best warriors of his generation. He lost his wife and spent his life in a self-destructive drunken haze while trying to convince someone, anyone, of helping him find her again. He never deviates from who or what he is.

Alistair- No. He prattles on and on about Duncan and how important he was to him, yet when it comes down to the crux of the entire story, stopping the darkspawn, he throws a fit and actually walks out on the PC for making the best decision in terms of ensuring the defeat of the Archdemon. I don't care how much he hates Loghain, there are THREE Wardens left in all of Ferelden at that time, and if one of them doesn't make it to the Archdemon, it's game over. For Alistair to walk out reveals him to be a true child amongst the adults in the story. It's not just about being foolish either... it's inconsistent.

Alistair defers to your Warden on every major decision in the story, even backing him/her up on most of them regardless of gender or origin. For that trend to just stop at the end is akin to Alistair saying that his own petty discomfort at accepting Loghain into the Wardens is more important that the actual purpose of the Wardens. He is the only character to act inconsistently with his own supposed moral compass. That's why I say he's poorly written.

It felt like a forced decision that you have to kill Loghain or lose Alistair, and was not realistic to me at all.
However, that's just an opinion, and clearly there will disagreement.

Edit: I also agree that the Landsmeet was poorly implemented. It's very hard to do a scene like that with the 4-6 dialogue choices per instance and have it be realistic I suppose, though.

Modifié par Phaelducan, 09 mai 2010 - 10:11 .

[nos_astra]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The whole Landsmeet thing is poorly written.

It certainly could have been much better. The fact that Riordan holds back essential information until after the Landsmeet is a pretty weak plot twist. Especially if you spare Loghain he should notice that Alistair doesn't know a particular detail about the Grey Wardens.

Edit: The amount of cutscene and dialogue recycling is almost ridiculous for such an important event.

Modifié par klarabella, 09 mai 2010 - 10:21 .

[Xandurpein]

Phaelducan wrote...

Alistair defers to your Warden on every major decision in the story, even backing him/her up on most of them regardless of gender or origin. For that trend to just stop at the end is akin to Alistair saying that his own petty discomfort at accepting Loghain into the Wardens is more important that the actual purpose of the Wardens. He is the only character to act inconsistently with his own supposed moral compass. That's why I say he's poorly written.

All your companions have their trigger point, that will make them leave, even if they have deferred to your judgement up until then. Sten can leave you just by taking him to the Sacred ashes quest, which in my humble opinion is far more contrieved than Alistair leaving if you spare Loghain.

As for the reasons why Alistair leaves, it's been discussed no end elsewhere. Suffice to say that I think that he is wrong, but not that this means that it is out of his character, if you bother to listen to him.

[Brako Shepard]

Yeah the writing for the landsmeet does go a little crazy. Its also the reason I cannot stand Alistair.



His story is a bit too mish-mashed to really have any feelings for other than...MUST KILL ALISTAIR TO STOP FROM WHINGING!



He goes from very funny from the moment you first meet him, to the biggest coward known to man. I still haven't come across this hardened Alistair because I just couldn't take his whinging throughout other conversations. But the thing that really made me hate him was when it was his time to step up and be a man.

[Costin_Razvan]

All your companions have their trigger point, that will make them leave, even if they have deferred to your judgement up until then. Sten can leave you just by taking him to the Sacred ashes quest, which in my humble opinion is far more contrieved than Alistair leaving if you spare Loghain.

The difference is that Sten will only lose 3 approval if you have done his quest. He only attacks you if you haven't done it.

[CalJones]

Well, as I've said before, Alistair was my favourite character in my first playthrough (where I killed Loghain). He does dwell on Duncan's death for rather longer than my character dwelled on the massacre of his entire family, but on the plus side I found his self-deprecating humour amusing and charming.

But then playthrough 2, I spared Loghain and saw Alistair's other side. And it wasn't pretty.

I don't fault the writing. All the characters have a breaking point and that's his. Loghain is Alistair's achilles heel, same as Loghain can't be rational about anything to do with the Orlesians. However, the way he snaps "kill him already!" disgusts me, and the fact that his tantrum takes place in front of the entire assembled Landsmeet - the people who he would be ruling were he made king - just proves to me that he does not have the maturity to rule (at least on his own).

Hardened Alistair is no better - if anything he acts like even more of a ****** if you spare Loghain. But you can at least get him to marry Anora if he's hardened.

[Tirigon]

Xandurpein wrote...

No one has a legitimate claim, that's why it's all about politics at the Landsmeet. And I think Anora loves Fereldan as much as Loghain. Both Anora and Loghain make the somewhat egocentric assumption that they are the only ones who can rule Fereldan properly, but at least Anora really knows how to rule, which Loghain don't.

I disagree. Anora is not fit at all to rule.

AND there is someone with a legitimate claim for the throne: Alistair and the Warden.

[Tirigon]

klarabella wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The whole Landsmeet thing is poorly written.

It certainly could have been much better. The fact that Riordan holds back essential information until after the Landsmeet is a pretty weak plot twist. Especially if you spare Loghain he should notice that Alistair doesn't know a particular detail about the Grey Wardens.

These are probably the most true words ever spoken about the Landsmeet.

[Brako Shepard]

I do think the breaking points is an amazing addition to the game. Most games have your team with you throughout anything you do. Sure they might nit-pick on other games, but if you do soething bad it makes them look weak for not standing up for there beliefs.



This is where Dragon Age is all other games for actual team members. I hate most of the team to be honest, but thats not down to bad writing, thats down to what I am like with people in real life. The fact that the devs made such different characters ranging from snobby witches to cowardly soldiers is amazing.



But its only Alistair who makes me want to break the tv. Its not that he moped over Duncan. That actually helped prove that he has a caring side. But then it all goes upside down for him later in the game. Thats probably why I only tend to take Wyanne, Shale and the dog with me on most quests.



Loghain is probably the most straight forward character in the game. Even though he has done bad things, you can actually see his side of why he did it. Its wrong from a decent persons point of view, but still understandable. And this is why its a hard choice to kill him.



Its not because he could have a chance to redeem himself, but because of the way Alistair behaves. You have one guy willing to accept death for his crimes, and the other who is going to live but is throwing a tantrum because he has to become king.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

All your companions have their trigger point, that will make them leave, even if they have deferred to your judgement up until then. Sten can leave you just by taking him to the Sacred ashes quest, which in my humble opinion is far more contrieved than Alistair leaving if you spare Loghain.

The difference is that Sten will only lose 3 approval if you have done his quest. He only attacks you if you haven't done it.

What?! How does that happen? Why and when does he leave there?
I once had him with me and all he did was saying "Congratulations. You just found a waste-bin" when I found the Urn...

[Phaelducan]

Not to mention you can actually fight him and win to change his mind and gain net approval. You don't get that chance with Alistair, he's just all "I'm out, peace."

[Brako Shepard]

It might be if you don't have his friendship high enough. One thing I forgot to try in the sacred ashes was when going back to Giaventi(think I spelt his name wrong).



Personally I feel its wrong to let any tom, dick or harry to just come along and take some of the ashes. So I threw a knife in the back of his skull when he walked away(again this is another weak point as I would rather have given him the chance to fight, than have a warrior throw a knife in the back of an unskilled fighter head). That ginger woman then calls you a pyscho or something like that, but it was only afterwards that I got in a conversation to harden her opinions on things.

[Tirigon]

Brako Shepard wrote...
That ginger woman then calls you a pyscho or something like that, but it was only afterwards that I got in a conversation to harden her opinions on things.

She does so when hardened, too. And if you defile the ashes she leaves you (though she told me "I love you soo soooo much" shortly before...). That was another one of these "Writers, I HATE you!" moments...

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
Well, as I've said before, Alistair was my favourite character in my first playthrough (where I killed Loghain). He does dwell on Duncan's death for rather longer than my character dwelled on the massacre of his entire family, ...

And you credit the fact that your PC doesn't dwell by script on his/her incredible strength of mind instead of simply being open for roleplaying whatever you want? Some people really do have a very limited imagination.

My PC always grieves even though the game doesn't display this for the simple reason that the game doesn't display not nearly enough dialogue for a whole year. You are free to fill in the blanks.


Edit: horrible grammar

Modifié par klarabella, 09 mai 2010 - 12:21 .

[nos_astra]

Brako Shepard wrote...
Personally I feel its wrong to let any tom, dick or harry to just come along and take some of the ashes. So I threw a knife in the back of his skull when he walked away(again this is another weak point as I would rather have given him the chance to fight, than have a warrior throw a knife in the back of an unskilled fighter head). That ginger woman then calls you a pyscho or something like that, but it was only afterwards that I got in a conversation to harden her opinions on things.

I believe you can send him away before you go to the temple. This way he can't spread the news of the urn.

Modifié par klarabella, 09 mai 2010 - 12:23 .

[Herr Uhl]

klarabella wrote...

Brako Shepard wrote...
Personally I feel its wrong to let any tom, dick or harry to just come along and take some of the ashes. So I threw a knife in the back of his skull when he walked away(again this is another weak point as I would rather have given him the chance to fight, than have a warrior throw a knife in the back of an unskilled fighter head). That ginger woman then calls you a pyscho or something like that, but it was only afterwards that I got in a conversation to harden her opinions on things.

I believe you can send him away before you go to the temple. This way he can't spread the news of the urn.

Yes, send him away to Denerim and don't tell him about it.

[Brako Shepard]

Yes I have seen that part. I made a save a while back just to see what happened.



To be honest though, I don't like being a bad guy in video games. When I play RPG's, I never create a player to look like me, but I always base them off my own principles. So this is why there needs to be two type of reactions for good and bad.



For example....



Good type 1 : Allow loghain to live and convince Alistair this is the right thing to do. The life of the people is more important than one mans grudge.



Good type 2 : Explain to Loghain that he has to die for his crimes, but will be granted a private execution in a place of his choosing. Convince Alistair to comfort his queen to be whilst the execution takes place.



Bad 1 : Tell Loghain that for his crimes, he will spend his last days in the deep roads battling the Darkspawn. Whisper to Alistair to never behave like that again infront of his people.



Bad 2 : Allow Alistair to kill Loghain, then tell Alistair to leave and never show his cowardly face in Fereldan again.



These are just examples of course, I am no writer. But I do think that there needs to be multiple choices instead of going from one extreme to another, and not having any middle ground.